RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Homer38]

I think the Finals argument is silly. If the Bulls were in the West Jordan would have lost in the finals in 90 and possibly 89 against the Pistons.

It would be hard for Luka to pass Jordan, Lebron, or Kareem with his defense. And with his conditioning I doubt he’ll have longevity.

And if LBJ was in the West he'd have missed the POs most years and been a second rd exit tops.

If the best team LBJ would have played in the finals were against a team like the Jazz (a team with average defense and lack of second scorer and Malone had struggles against the Bulls frontcourt) LeBron would have 8-9 rings

Jordan would not have won against the Warriors in the same context that LBJ was....He did not win a single game against the Celtics in the 1980s even if he had 49 points and 63 points in 2 of his games (I'm talking about the Celtics since they were likely as good as the warriors in the 2015-2018 period)...It's proof that it's a team sport and not just an individual sport like tennis..

[madmaxmedia]

The numbers always need context to be properly assessed.

If MJ had made the finals the year before his first ring but lost, yes it would be arguably more impressive than what he already accomplished.

The significance of the 6-0 is more that he was never defeated in his prime- not just going 6-0 in the Finals but winning a title essentially 6 seasons in a row (the midseason comeback year notwithstanding.) For those 6 seasons, he was never not the best player on the court (and by a significant margin IMO.)

So there's a narrative around his Finals record which makes it subjective, that's fine as there are other narratives for and against, and also other narratives for and against other players.

[infinite11285]

Literally just created another MJ vs LeBron GOAT debate despite one being stickied already.

Lol it's up to the mods here on in

I came to backseat moderate myself.

What’s the good of the sticky thread if this garbage keeps getting produced?

I got you, fellas.

Merged

Continue Luka’s contribution to the discussion here, Godymas.

Thread: Since Luka lost in the finals, does that mean he cannot pass Jordan now?
It goes without saying that the biggest argument for Michael Jordan's greatness is his undefeated 6-0 in the finals. Forget the failures of his early years before getting Scottie Pippen. Forget about the Wizards years where he was old and way past his prime. Forget the 1995 playoffs where Jordan came back from baseball. The one knock you can't have on Jordan is once he made the finals he won them.

LeBron on the other hand seems to regularly get knocks against his legacy for winning 4 of the 10 finals he made. It doesn't matter if LeBron didn't have prime Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman. He had the ghost of IT and Kevin Love before the depression really sunk in. Who could forget the time LeBron took Mo Williams and Big Z to go up against a prime dynasty San Antonio Spurs with late prime Tim Duncan, prime Tony Parker, and ofc Prime Manu Ginobli coached by the most winningest coach in NBA history, Gregg Popovich.

When you have a guy that only makes the All NBA 1st team it seems like the names that come up are guys like LeBron James, Michael Jordan or oh yeah Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Who could forget that time Kareem won the NBA MVP and didn't make the playoffs. It really is unfortunate that Kareem lost the 1974 finals to a Dave Cowens, John Havlicek, Jojo White Boston Celtics. I guess it really became impossible to put Kareem ahead of Jordan after Jordan won 2 finals in a row.

[The4thHorseman]

I think Jordan is the GOAT. However, I still don't get the 6/6 accolade. Wouldn't it have been better if Jordan went 6/9, which would mean he wouldn't have lost to the Pistons and Magic?

What makes him the GOAT imho is the double three-peats. He just overly dominated his era.

The two 3peats are great but would look much more impressive if hadn't retired in his prime taking almost 2 years off in between. He obviously needed the rest by his explanation in part 6 of the last dance biography

Physically I was getting exhausted but mentally I was way past exhausted. When you try and do something competitively you lose some of the hunger, some of the edge,” Michael Jordan revealed, via “The Last Dance”.

https://clutchpoints.com/the-last-dance-news-michael-jordan-exhausted-after-first-three-peat

[SaveTheHens]

Y'all are seriously gonna argue that if MJ had made the Finals 4 more times but lost to go 6-4 that his argument as GOAT would be weaker

I mean, 6-0 is better than 6-4.

This is bad reasoning.

6-4 is better than 6-0 because that means you were able to make the finals 4 more times. Not sure why you would be penalized for carrying your team deeper in the playoffs more times? So Jordan is rewarded for not being able to make it out of his conference every other season, lol?

If Lebron was 6-4 in the Finals instead of 4-6 he would easily be the GOAT, but because he only has 4 championships and he's played 7 more seasons than Jordan, he's usually not considered that.

The only thing behind the 6-0 is it shows the power of will that MJ had, that once he was one opponent away he got the job done every time. It shows his mental focus to give it his all and create a reality of his own by focusing intently on the moment & making the plays to get the job done, one play at a time.

Lebron tried to create a reality of his own by relying on adding others talents' rather than on a spectacular focus on the moment to be able to deliver huge plays at the biggest stage. I mean he's delivered a good chunk of big plays, but he's also been outplayed by Dirk, he's also been bailed out by Ray Allen. He gets that chase down block credit but his results at the final stage don't meet MJ's. 6 for 6 is miraculous, statistically it's not supposed to happen ever. 4/10 is more realistic, more human.

The only excuse I give Lebron is that he did grow up in a technologically revolutionized generation, definitely more distractions & more things that can throw off your focus than what MJ had to deal with. MJ got to live his life, gamble, golf, and the media didn't crap on him so much because they didn't always know what he was doing, there wasn't a million places to put out the content either. Nowadays there's so much ways to access/record athletes, there's just a general greater distraction for everyone from all areas including social media, so I mean could MJ's focus have lasted in todays' game to be able to deliver that 6/6? Who knows.

[The4thHorseman]

*** Please Note *** I've changed the poll had Wilt In there, while I think Wilt Is a great player, don't think too many If any have him In top 5 If even TOP 10 list as it's a tough LIST...

I've replaced him with Stephen Curry worthy of the goat debate talk - Not that Wilt Isn't but you know.

Peace.

No, he's not even close to being worthy of a spot as a choice for possible goat.

So you saying someone who's a; 4 time champ, 2 time mvp, the greatest shooter all time, Inspired millions of people around the world not worthy to debate as a goat? I mean his a top 10 all time In a lot and I mean a lot of peoples eyes including, nba players and what not, most people will put him In there top 10 list.

There's a big difference between being a tweener for 10th all time or consideration for being the goat. Nobody being truthful would say Steph has a strong argument for goat.

[JJ_PR]

No. If Luka wins the next 8 titles, nobody can argue Jordan is better despite the finals loss.

Of course, that wont happen, but it's a possibility.

Y'all are seriously gonna argue that if MJ had made the Finals 4 more times but lost to go 6-4 that his argument as GOAT would be weaker

I mean, 6-0 is better than 6-4.

Using that logic, 1-0 is better than 12-13 as well. but if someone had 12 titles you would not consider 1-0 the better player.

Also, 6-0 instead of 6-4 implies 0-4 in the first three rounds. So the full story is
6-0 + 0-4 in the first three rounds
or
6-4 + 4-0 in the first three rounds

There's a big difference between 6 titles and 12 titles. 12-13 is better than 6-0 without a doubt.

[Wingy]

I got you, fellas.

Thanks, infinite. It’s a thankless job with us the crowd constantly yelling rabble, rabble, rabble!

[Iwasawitness]

Didnt say it wasnt of course its in the discussion like so many more

The 2016 finals is still in the short list with the one of Jordan in 1993,Shaq in 2000 like you have mentionned.Jordan and Shaq was maybe better on offense in 1993 and 2000 and on defense,LBJ had a huge edge,he did everything including the biggest play of the 2016 finals and maybe the biggest defensive play in NBA history

So his block on Iggy was a bigger moment than Kyrie Irvings 3? Why?

Jordan stealing the ball from Malone and then going down and burying the game winner in 98 finals against Utah is less impressive than James block on Iggy? Why?

How about we just say they are all impressive? Why makes James block more impressive than Jordans steal?

For one thing, LeBron's block was pretty insane. I know we're used to seeing LeBron do chase down blocks all the time, but the amount of difficulty for this one can't be understated. A lot of LeBron's chase down blocks are calculated. LeBron will usually give players a false sense of hope. In some ways it's literal stat padding because LeBron knows he's going to get the block.

But in this case, it was out of pure desperation. A block like that is incredibly hard to pull off, not to mention the very, VERY thin amount of margin of error that he had left to get the block with. Had he been a fraction of a second late, it's too late and that's goal tending on LeBron. It's one of the greatest blocks of all time.

Above all else, the entire season was on the line. It's game 7. If Golden State makes that layup, there's no telling how the game ends. Irving's three pointer to give Cleveland the lead may never happen. I can remember when I saw that block happen and one of the people I was with called it right there and then... if Cleveland wins this game, that block goes down in history. And he was totally right.

Jordan stripping Malone is significant but there isn't anything particularly special about it. He used his great defensive awareness to realize that Malone was vulnerable and that steal was possible. It was an above average steal at the most. There have been far more memorable steals in the history of the game. Jordan's shot is more famous than the actual strip and there's a reason for that. Not to mention this is game 6, Chicago has a 3-2 series lead. It's not do or die per say. This steal set up the shot that sealed the win for Chicago, but they don't lose the series if this doesn't happen necessarily. Yeah they still could, but there's still another game to go.

I try to be less vocal about the LeBron vs MJ stuff because thanks to Hair Jordan being weirdly obsessed about it, it's opened up my eyes to how ridiculous I was with the lengths that I took it. But in this case, you can't really compare Jordan stripping Malone to LeBron blocking Iggy, you just can't. I will always laugh and roll my eyes at the "it's not even close" hyperbole people like to use because they're too lazy to just explain why one is better than the other, but in this case, I don't really think it is close at all.

And that's okay. For the sake of fairness, LeBron has a lot more playoff game winners than Jordan, but none of them come close to Jordan's game winner against Cleveland to win the series.

[MavsDirk41]

The 2016 finals is still in the short list with the one of Jordan in 1993,Shaq in 2000 like you have mentionned.Jordan and Shaq was maybe better on offense in 1993 and 2000 and on defense,LBJ had a huge edge,he did everything including the biggest play of the 2016 finals and maybe the biggest defensive play in NBA history

So his block on Iggy was a bigger moment than Kyrie Irvings 3? Why?

Jordan stealing the ball from Malone and then going down and burying the game winner in 98 finals against Utah is less impressive than James block on Iggy? Why?

How about we just say they are all impressive? Why makes James block more impressive than Jordans steal?

For one thing, LeBron's block was pretty insane. I know we're used to seeing LeBron do chase down blocks all the time, but the amount of difficulty for this one can't be understated. A lot of LeBron's chase down blocks are calculated. LeBron will usually give players a false sense of hope. In some ways it's literal stat padding because LeBron knows he's going to get the block.

But in this case, it was out of pure desperation. A block like that is incredibly hard to pull off, not to mention the very, VERY thin amount of margin of error that he had left to get the block with. Had he been a fraction of a second late, it's too late and that's goal tending on LeBron. It's one of the greatest blocks of all time.

Above all else, the entire season was on the line. It's game 7. If Golden State makes that layup, there's no telling how the game ends. Irving's three pointer to give Cleveland the lead may never happen. I can remember when I saw that block happen and one of the people I was with called it right there and then... if Cleveland wins this game, that block goes down in history. And he was totally right.

Jordan stripping Malone is significant but there isn't anything particularly special about it. He used his great defensive awareness to realize that Malone was vulnerable and that steal was possible. It was an above average steal at the most. There have been far more memorable steals in the history of the game. Jordan's shot is more famous than the actual strip and there's a reason for that. Not to mention this is game 6, Chicago has a 3-2 series lead. It's not do or die per say. This steal set up the shot that sealed the win for Chicago, but they don't lose the series if this doesn't happen necessarily. Yeah they still could, but there's still another game to go.

I try to be less vocal about the LeBron vs MJ stuff because thanks to Hair Jordan being weirdly obsessed about it, it's opened up my eyes to how ridiculous I was with the lengths that I took it. But in this case, you can't really compare Jordan stripping Malone to LeBron blocking Iggy, you just can't. I will always laugh and roll my eyes at the "it's not even close" hyperbole people like to use because they're too lazy to just explain why one is better than the other, but in this case, I don't really think it is close at all.

And that's okay. For the sake of fairness, LeBron has a lot more playoff game winners than Jordan, but none of them come close to Jordan's game winner against Cleveland to win the series.

Chicago had a 3-2 series lead in the 98 finals but Pippen aggravated his back injury in game 6 and only played 25 minutes scoring 8 points. Jordan had 45 and the only other Bulls player in double figures was Kukoc. Jordan scored 16 in the 4th just to keep the Bulls within striking distance. Who knows what happens in game 7 with Pippen hobbled with a back injury. Rodman didnt even start for the Bulls in that series. Pippen was never the same after his back problems and Rodman was just about out of the league. The Bulls were a mess. James block was impressive but Jordan got the steal and finished them off with a mid range shot to end the series in consecutive plays. Nothing wrong with having an opinion. Thats what we do on here.

[Iwasawitness]

So his block on Iggy was a bigger moment than Kyrie Irvings 3? Why?

Jordan stealing the ball from Malone and then going down and burying the game winner in 98 finals against Utah is less impressive than James block on Iggy? Why?

How about we just say they are all impressive? Why makes James block more impressive than Jordans steal?

For one thing, LeBron's block was pretty insane. I know we're used to seeing LeBron do chase down blocks all the time, but the amount of difficulty for this one can't be understated. A lot of LeBron's chase down blocks are calculated. LeBron will usually give players a false sense of hope. In some ways it's literal stat padding because LeBron knows he's going to get the block.

But in this case, it was out of pure desperation. A block like that is incredibly hard to pull off, not to mention the very, VERY thin amount of margin of error that he had left to get the block with. Had he been a fraction of a second late, it's too late and that's goal tending on LeBron. It's one of the greatest blocks of all time.

Above all else, the entire season was on the line. It's game 7. If Golden State makes that layup, there's no telling how the game ends. Irving's three pointer to give Cleveland the lead may never happen. I can remember when I saw that block happen and one of the people I was with called it right there and then... if Cleveland wins this game, that block goes down in history. And he was totally right.

Jordan stripping Malone is significant but there isn't anything particularly special about it. He used his great defensive awareness to realize that Malone was vulnerable and that steal was possible. It was an above average steal at the most. There have been far more memorable steals in the history of the game. Jordan's shot is more famous than the actual strip and there's a reason for that. Not to mention this is game 6, Chicago has a 3-2 series lead. It's not do or die per say. This steal set up the shot that sealed the win for Chicago, but they don't lose the series if this doesn't happen necessarily. Yeah they still could, but there's still another game to go.

I try to be less vocal about the LeBron vs MJ stuff because thanks to Hair Jordan being weirdly obsessed about it, it's opened up my eyes to how ridiculous I was with the lengths that I took it. But in this case, you can't really compare Jordan stripping Malone to LeBron blocking Iggy, you just can't. I will always laugh and roll my eyes at the "it's not even close" hyperbole people like to use because they're too lazy to just explain why one is better than the other, but in this case, I don't really think it is close at all.

And that's okay. For the sake of fairness, LeBron has a lot more playoff game winners than Jordan, but none of them come close to Jordan's game winner against Cleveland to win the series.

Chicago had a 3-2 series lead in the 98 finals but Pippen aggravated his back injury in game 6 and only played 25 minutes scoring 8 points. Jordan had 45 and the only other Bulls player in double figures was Kukoc. Jordan scored 16 in the 4th just to keep the Bulls within striking distance. Who knows what happens in game 7 with Pippen hobbled with a back injury. Rodman didnt even start for the Bulls in that series. Pippen was never the same after his back problems and Rodman was just about out of the league. The Bulls were a mess. James block was impressive but Jordan got the steal and finished them off with a mid range shot to end the series in consecutive plays. Nothing wrong with having an opinion. Thats what we do on here.

I get what you’re saying. And you’re not wrong. But I’ll leave it at that.

[Rust_Cohle]

I mean, 6-0 is better than 6-4.

It isn't though, because 6-0 isn't really 6-0

I don't quite understand what you mean by "6-0 isn't really 6-0". 6-0 is literally, 6-0.

Making 10 finals is quite an accomplishment, LBJ deserves praise for that. But Jordan has more championships, plain and simple.

It was a horrific eastern conference lebron went through, only one all nba first team player in the same season lebron faced them on the way to the finals. Props to LeBron, but it was a brutally bad east for many many years from the 2011-2018 years.

[brackdan70]

I’ve never been a big fan honestly. But if your hungry I guess.

[JustBuzzin]

LMAO who voted Jokic and why the hell is he even on the list?

[SlimShady83]

LMAO who voted Jokic and why the hell is he even on the list?

It's been explained already read thread

[SlimShady83]

1 week update

I decided to update the 1st post and give full details about JOKIC on poll and poll reasons - hope this helps for any more questions on Jokic and why others aren't on there .

You just can't please everyone

Peace out.

[NoStatsGuy]

It isn't though, because 6-0 isn't really 6-0

I don't quite understand what you mean by "6-0 isn't really 6-0". 6-0 is literally, 6-0.

Making 10 finals is quite an accomplishment, LBJ deserves praise for that. But Jordan has more championships, plain and simple.

It was a horrific eastern conference lebron went through, only one all nba first team player in the same season lebron faced them on the way to the finals. Props to LeBron, but it was a brutally bad east for many many years from the 2011-2018 years.

and mj played ass teams in the finals compared to what lebron had to play against. so what now?

[Rust_Cohle]

I don't quite understand what you mean by "6-0 isn't really 6-0". 6-0 is literally, 6-0.

Making 10 finals is quite an accomplishment, LBJ deserves praise for that. But Jordan has more championships, plain and simple.

It was a horrific eastern conference lebron went through, only one all nba first team player in the same season lebron faced them on the way to the finals. Props to LeBron, but it was a brutally bad east for many many years from the 2011-2018 years.

and mj played ass teams in the finals compared to what lebron had to play against. so what now?

Would much much rather play a hard team in the finals and have an absolute cupcake walk to the finals than having multiple harder teams on the way to the finals.

Case in point, put lebron in the west during those years and there is no multiple finals appearances. The west was a blood bath. MJ played in the harder conference in his time, that’s what up now.

Everyone would take facing a harder team at the end as oppose to being more challenged on the way to the finals. Hence why is double three peat surpasses lebron

[NoStatsGuy]

It was a horrific eastern conference lebron went through, only one all nba first team player in the same season lebron faced them on the way to the finals. Props to LeBron, but it was a brutally bad east for many many years from the 2011-2018 years.

and mj played ass teams in the finals compared to what lebron had to play against. so what now?

Would much much rather play a hard team in the finals and have an absolute cupcake walk to the finals than having multiple harder teams on the way to the finals.

Case in point, put lebron in the west during those years and there is no multiple finals appearances. The west was a blood bath. MJ played in the harder conference in his time, that’s what up now.

Everyone would take facing a harder team at the end as oppose to being more challenged on the way to the finals. Hence why is double three peat surpasses lebron

well im not saying you are wrong, but it works both ways.

i can make the same argument here. put MJ on the cavs, lakers and heat. he would have faced 2 of the top dynasties that ever existed (lebron played GSW/SAS 7 out 10 times). would mj still be 6-0? noone will be able to answer that question. i personally doubt it, but hey everybody can answer that for themselves.

mj faced top dynasties in the celtics and pistons if you wanna count them. and mj lost aswell against those

[KayDee35]

GOAT is poorly defined. I take it to mean GWOAT (Greatest Winner of All Time). And when it comes to contributing to winning, Bill Russell has no equal.