Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4

[Covi_Marsh]

https://www.si.com/nba/heat/miami-news/miami-heats-caleb-martin-starting-to-figure-out-the-power-forward-position

[Covi_Marsh]

Miami plays switching defense and zone just like we will but he was definitely their PF according to them. He also guarded the best perimeter scorer as well. So is just a name. But he will have that name with us as well.

[Covi_Marsh]

Even in NBA2K he listed as a PF lol

[Covi_Marsh]

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[Negrodamus]

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Good pickup by them. Low risk, high reward.

[Black Mage]

Is everyone convinced that RoCo's washed? Because when he played, he was still the best of any of the remaining, possible, inexpensive PF backups (by a fairly wide margin).

I'm increasingly worried that the Sixers will get really screwed at the 4, either because PG will have to play there and there'll be major defensive liabilities b/c three of the starting 5 will be below average defenders at their positions, OR because we'll play someone else at the 4 who will suck even worse. Marcus Morris is not a starting-caliber PF on a decent team. Nor is DFS. I can't identify anyone out there, either a FA or someone on a bad team who might be available at the trade deadline, who's above average all around. Really starting to bum me out.

Those of you who feel as if we just need to sign, say, Morris, Lonnie Walker (who I'd love), and Lowry or Bev: how do you see the team dealing with the 4?

I wouldn't be surprised to see them target Larry Nance, Jr.; but that won't happen until January, if something better isn't available.

[Ben]

https://www.si.com/nba/heat/miami-news/miami-heats-caleb-martin-starting-to-figure-out-the-power-forward-position

Touché, hats off to you for digging around and finding that.
For my part, here's a chart of his playing time, with 0% at the 4, and none of Miami's 5-main rotations list Martin at the 4. Which could just mean that, as I wrote, they're playing multiple wings and switching things around.

Again, tip of the hat for finding that, and while the charts say that Martin didn't play PF-- and while I maintain that he's not any kind of solution for us against teams with bigger 4s-- the fair rejoinder to me would be that Martin should know better than I what position he's played. Like this interchange from Seinfeld, with me playing Kramer:

Jerry: I think I know when my birthday is!

Kramer: You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.

_________________________________________

[EDIT: I just realized that the SI article you linked was from 2022. 82games.com lists Martin as having played a small % of his time at PF in 2022, and I acknowledged in my original post to you that "He might have played a little 4 in 2022-23, but not well at all." I think I was pretty gracious in my response, above, but you weren't really playing fair. Miami apparently experimented a *little* in 2022 when they were short-handed, and apparently didn't like the experiment well enough to do it again the following year. The article that you linked states that one reason for Martin's very short-lived period at the 4 was because "the Heat need it with so many players sidelined because of injuries." Apparently, once the injured player came back the team didn't keep using Martin at the 4.

And as I wrote initially, Martin has wing measurements all the way. If he can be a starting PF on a good team, any wing can. And I really don't think that it works that way.]

[LloydFree]

Is everyone convinced that RoCo's washed? Because when he played, he was still the best of any of the remaining, possible, inexpensive PF backups (by a fairly wide margin).

I'm increasingly worried that the Sixers will get really screwed at the 4, either because PG will have to play there and there'll be major defensive liabilities b/c three of the starting 5 will be below average defenders at their positions, OR because we'll play someone else at the 4 who will suck even worse. Marcus Morris is not a starting-caliber PF on a decent team. Nor is DFS. I can't identify anyone out there, either a FA or someone on a bad team who might be available at the trade deadline, who's above average all around. Really starting to bum me out.

Those of you who feel as if we just need to sign, say, Morris, Lonnie Walker (who I'd love), and Lowry or Bev: how do you see the team dealing with the 4?

It's a no brainer to sign Cov over Morris or anyone else if Cov is healthy. It just seems doubtful that he is healthy, so people have moved on.

Whether it's Covington, Morris, or someone else, we desperately need a true PF / big wing.

Covington is a waste of time, now that we have C. Martin. Covington is taller, but he doesn't guard PF's well. He guards perimeter players.

[jstross]

IF Roco has recovered from the injury he's not a bad end of roster addition, imo. Doesn't move the needle much.

Is everyone convinced that RoCo's washed? Because when he played, he was still the best of any of the remaining, possible, inexpensive PF backups (by a fairly wide margin).

I'm increasingly worried that the Sixers will get really screwed at the 4, either because PG will have to play there and there'll be major defensive liabilities b/c three of the starting 5 will be below average defenders at their positions, OR because we'll play someone else at the 4 who will suck even worse. Marcus Morris is not a starting-caliber PF on a decent team. Nor is DFS. I can't identify anyone out there, either a FA or someone on a bad team who might be available at the trade deadline, who's above average all around. Really starting to bum me out.

Those of you who feel as if we just need to sign, say, Morris, Lonnie Walker (who I'd love), and Lowry or Bev: how do you see the team dealing with the 4?

It's a no brainer to sign Cov over Morris or anyone else if Cov is healthy. It just seems doubtful that he is healthy, so people have moved on.

Whether it's Covington, Morris, or someone else, we desperately need a true PF / big wing.

Covington is a waste of time, now that we have C. Martin. Covington is taller, but he doesn't guard PF's well. He guards perimeter players.

[mjkvol]

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A lot of players say they block out the noise, but Tobias definitely read and heard the criticism during his time here. You could call it a love-hate relationship, but there was never a lot of real love, and hate might be too strong a word. It was more frustration and fatigue because he could never live up to his contract and position on the team, and those five years just seemed to be endless.

[MikRay]

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Classy

[LeonJordanJr24]

Oubre the PF he is a great finisher and eats in dunkers spot. Embiid actually trusted to throw him the ball there too.

[Negrodamus]

Cool, Embiid is moving well… take him out of the game please.

[ckchen]

I know you're not a DFS fan, but for fair value, I think he's worth looking into.

Grant Williams might be available, but he's talked himself off 2 teams and is surprisingly not that great of a rebounder and takes some questionable shots.

Obi Tobbin would be a dream if Indy was willing to move him, but this would likely be a 3-teamer.

Maybe Morey can remind Portland that they're rebuilding and go after Deni?

Chris Boucher has a lot of good metrics, but has never played more than 24 mpg. Can he do well in an expanded role? Can he defend the likes of Tatum/Giannis?

DFS isn't a PF. He's another wing that has been attempting to play PF. Despite his wingspan he's undersized. If you had a starting PF who hasn't even averaged 5 rbs a game in the past 3 years and never averaged 6 in his most effective years, despite playing nearly or over 30mpg you would question it. His shooting numbers have mediocre at best, very bad at worst. This is a guy people want to trade a 1st round pick for because...why exactly? Because he's a "hustle guy?" I'm sorry, but if you're biggest concern are that you only have wing forwards to play at 4, then DFS doesn't solve really any issues.

Surprisingly not a great rebounder and takes questionable shots? Are you sure you aren't still talking about DFS and not Grant williams?

Obi Tobbin wouldn't even be a 3-teamer, but it's definitely a dream. Indy is a playoff team they're not looking to shed talent. Especially players that they literally JUST gave a 4 year contract to. They 100% did not sign him to deal to then decide they want to trade him away by midseason - no 3 team trade would make any difference.

Portland literally just traded Brogdon, 2 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders to Washington for Deni Avdija. You could remind them every minute of every day that they are rebuilding and they would just look at you like you're crazy. Avdija is only 23 (!) years old and has 4 years left on his deal. That's literally what every rebuilding team actually WANTS.

I think Boucher might be the best call on here, especially if his history with Nurse is positive? Who's to say. I would say that he might not be able to play an expanded role since somehow his playing time went down even after the Raptors traded Siakam and OG. That cannot speak particularly well about him as a player, but at the same time, probably means he's basically fallen out of favor in Toronto. From what I recall, he's more of a help defender, shot blocker type and I highly doubt he's going out on the wing to defend against Tatum. But from the options you present, he's probably the most available and the closest fit to what they probably need.

[Ben]

I know you're not a DFS fan, but for fair value, I think he's worth looking into.

Grant Williams might be available, but he's talked himself off 2 teams and is surprisingly not that great of a rebounder and takes some questionable shots.

Obi Tobbin would be a dream if Indy was willing to move him, but this would likely be a 3-teamer.

Maybe Morey can remind Portland that they're rebuilding and go after Deni?

Chris Boucher has a lot of good metrics, but has never played more than 24 mpg. Can he do well in an expanded role? Can he defend the likes of Tatum/Giannis?

DFS isn't a PF. He's another wing that has been attempting to play PF. Despite his wingspan he's undersized. If you had a starting PF who hasn't even averaged 5 rbs a game in the past 3 years and never averaged 6 in his most effective years, despite playing nearly or over 30mpg you would question it. His shooting numbers have mediocre at best, very bad at worst. This is a guy people want to trade a 1st round pick for because...why exactly? Because he's a "hustle guy?" I'm sorry, but if you're biggest concern are that you only have wing forwards to play at 4, then DFS doesn't solve really any issues.

Surprisingly not a great rebounder and takes questionable shots? Are you sure you aren't still talking about DFS and not Grant williams?

Obi Tobbin wouldn't even be a 3-teamer, but it's definitely a dream. Indy is a playoff team they're not looking to shed talent. Especially players that they literally JUST gave a 4 year contract to. They 100% did not sign him to deal to then decide they want to trade him away by midseason - no 3 team trade would make any difference.

Portland literally just traded Brogdon, 2 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders to Washington for Deni Avdija. You could remind them every minute of every day that they are rebuilding and they would just look at you like you're crazy. Avdija is only 23 (!) years old and has 4 years left on his deal. That's literally what every rebuilding team actually WANTS.

I think Boucher might be the best call on here, especially if his history with Nurse is positive? Who's to say. I would say that he might not be able to play an expanded role since somehow his playing time went down even after the Raptors traded Siakam and OG. That cannot speak particularly well about him as a player, but at the same time, probably means he's basically fallen out of favor in Toronto. From what I recall, he's more of a help defender, shot blocker type and I highly doubt he's going out on the wing to defend against Tatum. But from the options you present, he's probably the most available and the closest fit to what they probably need.

THANK YOU. I had been thinking about posting all of DFS's very mediocre-- or sub-mediocre-- advanced stats over the past few years, when he's been playing an undersized PF, but I decided that it wasn't worth the effort. Thank you for summarizing the main points. It's not just that I'm not a DFS fan. It's that he's not a solution to any competitive team's PF position, b/c he's not a PF. He's sometimes called a 3D player but he doesn't shoot 3s exceptionally well and he doesn't defend very well.

In DFS's entire career he's had TWO good seasons of 3P shooting, with Dallas, and in those two years his advanced stats at PF were below average. And that's it-- that's the high point. Other than those two seasons he's been below the average NBA 3P%, and he's never defended power forwards well.
If you like Hollinger's PER stat, the efficiency statistic which pegs 15.0 as the league average each year, DFS had a 10.1 last year and 9.2 the year before.
If you like Box Score +/-, he was net negative each of the last two seasons, and was negative on defense as well as offense.
If you like "Simple Rating," which takes into account PER as well as +/-, DFS was the lowest-rated starter on a bad Brooklyn team.

The positive articles I've read about DFS seem like they were written by AI, and maybe they were. It's hard for me understand why he'd be taken seriously by any GM as a true PF solution.

[76ciology]

I've been trying to learn more about Paul George.

It seems he initially complained about being treated like a shooting guard in Doc Rivers’ system, similar to Ray Allen and JJ Redick. He wanted more opportunities to handle the ball and act as a playmaker. When he got that chance, he had to play defense, be a playmaker, and score, which wore him down. Age has also played a factor. To address this, the team tried to get a point guard, moving from John Wall to Westbrook.

His recent complaint seems to be about playing the right way, which I interpret as an indirect criticism of Harden's ball-dominant style. George seems to prefer a system like the Celtics, where the ball moves more and there are multiple threats on the floor.

I also read about an incident with Montrezl Harrell in the bubble. Their scheme was to switch everything, but during a Murray-Jokic pick-and-roll, George decided not to switch, messing up their defense. Harrell shouted at him, and George responded that he thought they weren't switching that action. Harrell continued to argue until George told him to watch who he was talking to, and after that, the Clippers just weren't the same.

Defensively, I think George's style combines Tobias Harris’ man-to-man defense and Robert Covington's team defense. He doesn't play very physically and gambles a lot on defense, relying on quick hands for deflections. Since he isn't physical, he isn't very keen on crashing the boards or protecting the rim in the paint.

[76ciology]

Overall, I think Paul George is in a great position. For us, he’s replacing Tobias Harris, arguably the most disliked Sixer due to his underperformance, which sets a low bar for George to exceed. Therefore, I don’t expect he’ll face much criticism. Tobias has died for his future sins.

For George, he’s now playing alongside multiple threats, benefiting from excellent spacing and Nurse’s system of continuous ball and player movement. This environment should alleviate pressure both on and off the court.

[Kolkmania]

So this is a likely outcome for the upcoming weeks?

Ballhandlers: Maxey, Lowry (?), McCain, Dowtin (?)
Wings: Oubre, Caleb Martin, Council, Gordon
Forwards: George, Morris (?), KJ Martin (?)
Centers: Embiid, Drummond, Bona

In that case we would be quite thin in rebounding and weak side rim protection. We'd obviously have the KJ Martin to upgrade the roster in January. Hoping that there's one more Kelly Oubre-esque signing in August/September that can have a clear role on a contending team after a failed FA. Perhaps Cedi Osman as a starter, allowing Oubre to be a 6th man.

[ProcessDoctor]

I know you're not a DFS fan, but for fair value, I think he's worth looking into.

Grant Williams might be available, but he's talked himself off 2 teams and is surprisingly not that great of a rebounder and takes some questionable shots.

Obi Tobbin would be a dream if Indy was willing to move him, but this would likely be a 3-teamer.

Maybe Morey can remind Portland that they're rebuilding and go after Deni?

Chris Boucher has a lot of good metrics, but has never played more than 24 mpg. Can he do well in an expanded role? Can he defend the likes of Tatum/Giannis?

DFS isn't a PF. He's another wing that has been attempting to play PF. Despite his wingspan he's undersized. If you had a starting PF who hasn't even averaged 5 rbs a game in the past 3 years and never averaged 6 in his most effective years, despite playing nearly or over 30mpg you would question it. His shooting numbers have mediocre at best, very bad at worst. This is a guy people want to trade a 1st round pick for because...why exactly? Because he's a "hustle guy?" I'm sorry, but if you're biggest concern are that you only have wing forwards to play at 4, then DFS doesn't solve really any issues.

Surprisingly not a great rebounder and takes questionable shots? Are you sure you aren't still talking about DFS and not Grant williams?

Obi Tobbin wouldn't even be a 3-teamer, but it's definitely a dream. Indy is a playoff team they're not looking to shed talent. Especially players that they literally JUST gave a 4 year contract to. They 100% did not sign him to deal to then decide they want to trade him away by midseason - no 3 team trade would make any difference.

Portland literally just traded Brogdon, 2 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders to Washington for Deni Avdija. You could remind them every minute of every day that they are rebuilding and they would just look at you like you're crazy. Avdija is only 23 (!) years old and has 4 years left on his deal. That's literally what every rebuilding team actually WANTS.

I think Boucher might be the best call on here, especially if his history with Nurse is positive? Who's to say. I would say that he might not be able to play an expanded role since somehow his playing time went down even after the Raptors traded Siakam and OG. That cannot speak particularly well about him as a player, but at the same time, probably means he's basically fallen out of favor in Toronto. From what I recall, he's more of a help defender, shot blocker type and I highly doubt he's going out on the wing to defend against Tatum. But from the options you present, he's probably the most available and the closest fit to what they probably need.

What would be your fix, given our current cap situation and needs?

[mksp]

Just realized Embiid being on the Olympic team gives the GB a whole new cycle to hate on him.