Duren’s Defense

[Spider156]

I’ve been in a groupchat with a close group of friends for years, we’ve all watched nonstop Pistons for over 20 years. We’ve seen players vastly improve defensively, we’ve seen athleticism take major hits at early age compared to guards and wings. This has been an ongoing argument all offseason so far. I believe centers athleticism peak is lower than guards and wings. Usually they peak at age 24-29. Duren is creeping up to 21 in November. I’ve made a list of centers of the starting centers or potential starting centers in the league. Here’s a rough list, no particular order.

Jokic. Embiid. Davis. Adebayo. Gobert. Porzingis. Wenbenyama. Allen. Mobley. Turner. Vucevic. Robinson. Harteinstein. Wendell Carter. Claxton. Capela. Okongwu. Poetl. Lively/Gafford. KAT. Gobert. Zubac. Ayton. Sabonis. Kessler. Thompson/Edey. Clingan. Sarr. Williams/Richards (charlotte), Lopez.

This is without naming a center from Rockets and Pelicans unless you wanna count Sengun.

I was a big fan of Duren’s draft and still am but last year I was extremely disappointed in Duren the most out of any player except for Ivey. I’ve never seen a player get this much hype from the whole league’s fanbase. What do they see that I don’t?

When you read this list, be fair, what does it make you think? Will Duren’s defense truly be better than any of these players next season? How about his offense? If so, how many and which players?

If Duren is not gonna be better than 5 players on this list at 21 3 years into his career, what are your expectations going forward?

[Spider156]

Barring injuries (including Duren’s feet and ankles), I think he will be better than Vucevic, Williams/Richards, Okongwu, Clingan, Kessler, Zubac and Edey. Keep in mind 2 of these players are rookies who haven’t hit the floor. I do think Sarr is better but I also think he’s a wiseman type of prospect. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s not better than Clingan and Edey. We saw Lively get to finals even with Luka that’s pretty impressive for a rookie.

My expectations are low for Duren. I seriously doubt he will improve to a point that he will be a top 20 center in the league defensively or offensively. This is how many previous Pistons players dropped in value. Sell high or keep hope alive?

[bstein14]

He still is younger than a lot of rookies from this draft class. He still has massive upside. We didn't see much growth from year 1 to year 2 so this is a big year for him. He's extension eligible after this season.

[mattao313]

I think he is what he is a really good rim runner I don't expect much more on the offensive end. Rim runners have there place in the league but I just don't think he's a natural shot blocker or rim protector and he's undersized too.

He reminds me of Drummond but with better bball iq so still a good player but I don't think you can build a defense with him as the focal point. They will need to be creative building with him.

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[Cowology]

To me, Duren is Shawn Kemp. He can be that high flying 20 & 12 player, which sounds pretty good. I just don't know where that fits in the modern NBA.

I know this sounds bonkers...but I think he's actually a Four and will need to develop a different game.

[Snakebites]

To me, Duren is Shawn Kemp. He can be that high flying 20 & 12 player, which sounds pretty good. I just don't know where that fits in the modern NBA.

I know this sounds bonkers...but I think he's actually a Four and will need to develop a different game.

I think that works great...if you have a rim protecting shot blocking center who can hit three pointers at volume.

But...those don't grow on trees.

[ComboGuardCity]

To me, Duren is Shawn Kemp. He can be that high flying 20 & 12 player, which sounds pretty good. I just don't know where that fits in the modern NBA.

I know this sounds bonkers...but I think he's actually a Four and will need to develop a different game.

This is what I thought too. Hes more Amare and Kemp vs Dwight.

[VicVinegar]

I mean it's obviously the biggest facet of his game that needs improvement, but he's literally 20 years old with 2 years of experience and two coaches that were fired. He's shown upside that has me excited for his potential. I do NOT see him as a 4, I think that is the worst possible fit, especially with the lack of a "true" center on this team and the fact that he has zero jump shot.

I'm not sure what is with the "fire sale" mentality around here. Everyone trying to sell for pennies on the dollar because players aren't MVP caliber by the time they are 22. "Ivey makes too many mistakes!" "Thompson can't shoot!" "Duren can't play defense!" Players have flaws, I'd much rather work on those flaws than give up on them for scraps.

Of the list of centers provided by OP, outside of the ones that were first overall picks, I wonder how many of them were proven guys by 21.

[Spider156]

To me, Duren is Shawn Kemp. He can be that high flying 20 & 12 player, which sounds pretty good. I just don't know where that fits in the modern NBA.

I know this sounds bonkers...but I think he's actually a Four and will need to develop a different game.

I think that works great...if you have a rim protecting shot blocking center who can hit three pointers at volume.

But...those don't grow on trees.

You mean Brook Lopez. Not even Anthony Davis can do this. Embiid can? Jokic. In general those are rare. Based on the responses I’m getting I think we all think the same thing…Duren is a bench player.

[Spider156]

I mean it's obviously the biggest facet of his game that needs improvement, but he's literally 20 years old with 2 years of experience and two coaches that were fired. He's shown upside that has me excited for his potential. I do NOT see him as a 4, I think that is the worst possible fit, especially with the lack of a "true" center on this team and the fact that he has zero jump shot.

I'm not sure what is with the "fire sale" mentality around here. Everyone trying to sell for pennies on the dollar because players aren't MVP caliber by the time they are 22. "Ivey makes too many mistakes!" "Thompson can't shoot!" "Duren can't play defense!" Players have flaws, I'd much rather work on those flaws than give up on them for scraps.

Of the list of centers provided by OP, outside of the ones that were first overall picks, I wonder how many of them were proven guys by 21.

I’ve seen enough players come and go for peanuts just because we held onto them for too long. I don’t even need to list them, some of them just left our team half a year ago only let alone years of this problem. The truth is if it’s not Duren who else can we get? There’s a reason 2-3 teams in the NBA don’t have a starting center on their team, they’re that hard to find and develop. That’s pretty much the only reason I have to keep Duren. Otherwise if a team is offering 3 FRPs, I’d pack his bags. 2 FRPs? Maybe, depends on the team the picks are coming from because I think Duren makes any team worse cuz of his defense except for the teams that don’t have a center.

[Pharaoh]

I mean it's obviously the biggest facet of his game that needs improvement, but he's literally 20 years old with 2 years of experience and two coaches that were fired. He's shown upside that has me excited for his potential. I do NOT see him as a 4, I think that is the worst possible fit, especially with the lack of a "true" center on this team and the fact that he has zero jump shot.

I'm not sure what is with the "fire sale" mentality around here. Everyone trying to sell for pennies on the dollar because players aren't MVP caliber by the time they are 22. "Ivey makes too many mistakes!" "Thompson can't shoot!" "Duren can't play defense!" Players have flaws, I'd much rather work on those flaws than give up on them for scraps.

Of the list of centers provided by OP, outside of the ones that were first overall picks, I wonder how many of them were proven guys by 21.

I’ve seen enough players come and go for peanuts just because we held onto them for too long. I don’t even need to list them, some of them just left our team half a year ago only let alone years of this problem. The truth is if it’s not Duren who else can we get? There’s a reason 2-3 teams in the NBA don’t have a starting center on their team, they’re that hard to find and develop. That’s pretty much the only reason I have to keep Duren. Otherwise if a team is offering 3 FRPs, I’d pack his bags. 2 FRPs? Maybe, depends on the team the picks are coming from because I think Duren makes any team worse cuz of his defense except for the teams that don’t have a center.

So if Duren is so terrible who's offering 3 FRPs or 2 FRPs?



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[mattao313]

I mean it's obviously the biggest facet of his game that needs improvement, but he's literally 20 years old with 2 years of experience and two coaches that were fired. He's shown upside that has me excited for his potential. I do NOT see him as a 4, I think that is the worst possible fit, especially with the lack of a "true" center on this team and the fact that he has zero jump shot.

I'm not sure what is with the "fire sale" mentality around here. Everyone trying to sell for pennies on the dollar because players aren't MVP caliber by the time they are 22. "Ivey makes too many mistakes!" "Thompson can't shoot!" "Duren can't play defense!" Players have flaws, I'd much rather work on those flaws than give up on them for scraps.

Of the list of centers provided by OP, outside of the ones that were first overall picks, I wonder how many of them were proven guys by 21.

I’ve seen enough players come and go for peanuts just because we held onto them for too long. I don’t even need to list them, some of them just left our team half a year ago only let alone years of this problem. The truth is if it’s not Duren who else can we get? There’s a reason 2-3 teams in the NBA don’t have a starting center on their team, they’re that hard to find and develop. That’s pretty much the only reason I have to keep Duren. Otherwise if a team is offering 3 FRPs, I’d pack his bags. 2 FRPs? Maybe, depends on the team the picks are coming from because I think Duren makes any team worse cuz of his defense except for the teams that don’t have a center.

I don't think it that difficult to find rim runners in the draft it's like 1 or 2 in every draft and they have a pretty high floor because their offensive skill level is low. I wouldn't give him away but I'm not sure he's that valuable unless your talking about low 1st rnd picks. If I were a gm I wouldn't give a lotto pick for him unless he's a missing piece for a championship team. Idk tho.

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[7r5ur]

I mean it's obviously the biggest facet of his game that needs improvement, but he's literally 20 years old with 2 years of experience and two coaches that were fired. He's shown upside that has me excited for his potential. I do NOT see him as a 4, I think that is the worst possible fit, especially with the lack of a "true" center on this team and the fact that he has zero jump shot.

I'm not sure what is with the "fire sale" mentality around here. Everyone trying to sell for pennies on the dollar because players aren't MVP caliber by the time they are 22. "Ivey makes too many mistakes!" "Thompson can't shoot!" "Duren can't play defense!" Players have flaws, I'd much rather work on those flaws than give up on them for scraps.

Of the list of centers provided by OP, outside of the ones that were first overall picks, I wonder how many of them were proven guys by 21.

I’ve seen enough players come and go for peanuts just because we held onto them for too long. I don’t even need to list them, some of them just left our team half a year ago only let alone years of this problem. The truth is if it’s not Duren who else can we get? There’s a reason 2-3 teams in the NBA don’t have a starting center on their team, they’re that hard to find and develop. That’s pretty much the only reason I have to keep Duren. Otherwise if a team is offering 3 FRPs, I’d pack his bags. 2 FRPs? Maybe, depends on the team the picks are coming from because I think Duren makes any team worse cuz of his defense except for the teams that don’t have a center.

I harp on Duren's defense a lot, but he is also in a very bad spot defensively for a 19/20 year old C with horrible defenders in front of him throughout his NBA career thus far like Cade, Ivey, Bojan, Burks, etc. He also had a horrible coach this past year.

I'm willing to give him another year to see tangible improvement in that area. No one is offering us 3 real FRP's for him anyways. I would doubt even 2.

[TPA]

I think that a 20 y/o guy who 's 6'10" and 250, averages nearly 14/12 with a TS of 65% and hit 85% of his FT's (on nearly 4 attempts) is worth continued investment. His defense needs to be better, and I think it can be with coaching and development. Bickerstaff is going to require it as he instills a defensive culture within the team dynamic. My concern with Duren is the injury history. Some of that might be strength and conditioning. I'm hoping he's not simply prone like so many other big men.
I think there is a lot of potential with Duren. I'd rather go down with that ship before moving on from him this early in his development.

[keepitrealhomes]

My concern with Drummond is the injury history.

Little Freudian slip there lol

[TPA]

My concern with Drummond is the injury history.

Little Freudian slip there lol

Good Catch! Corrected!

[Billl]

Young bigs normally aren't great defenders because they over rotate, bite on pump fakes, pick up fouls etc. If those where the type of defensive issues duren was having, nobody would be super concerned. He just didn't make attempts on a lot of plays last year and that is concerning. Our perimeter defense was bad, but you still have to make that rotation and keep it from being a complete straight line drive to the hoop.

[VicVinegar]

Young bigs normally aren't great defenders because they over rotate, bite on pump fakes, pick up fouls etc. If those where the type of defensive issues duren was having, nobody would be super concerned. He just didn't make attempts on a lot of plays last year and that is concerning. Our perimeter defense was bad, but you still have to make that rotation and keep it from being a complete straight line drive to the hoop.

You may be right in most situations, but honestly in this case I think that I'd be more concerned with mistakes as compared to lack of effort/motivation. He's been here two years with two garbage coaches and has won 31 total games since being in the league. It's unfortunate to see, but I don't super fault him if he's disgruntled, frustrated, or just tired and not putting in 100% effort. Kind of reminds me of when Blake Griffin didn't dunk for like 2+ years a piston and then dunks on us when he returned to LCA, lol . At least Duren is obviously talented. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I feel like guys like Knox and Killian definitely gave it their all, but they just sucked.

That is still not good news, obviously. But hopefully a new coach and new teammates can improve morale. Now if he's not showing an effort early into the season and he isn't a better player under Bickerstaff, then maybe we have a bigger issue.

[Cowology]

I agree he's worth hanging onto. His ceiling is still fairly high and I don't want to be overly critical over anything coming outa last year. That sit was toxic for everybody.

I'm just kinda purely looking at this from a comp standpoint. Kemp & Amare were both All Stars. But JB is gonna have to figure out what lineups work because while the vets help stabilize, there are still some glaring questions when it comes to the fit of our "core".

[theBigLip]

In general, better to hold onto rookies too long than to move them too early. They are on inexpensive contracts with many “outs” for the team. Low risk, high reward.

It amazes me the comments that we should trade a bunch of our young FRPs because they suck. If that were true, we’re just getting SRPs for them, another reason to try to get them to improve.

And as previously mentioned, we’ve had bad coaching the last two years, no vet leadership, yet we’re expecting 20 year olds to be experts defensively?

I expect big improvements this year w JB coaching.