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Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4

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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1681 » by 76ciology » Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:05 am

Ben wrote:


Touché, hats off to you for digging around and finding that.
For my part, here's a chart of his playing time, with 0% at the 4, and none of Miami's 5-main rotations list Martin at the 4. Which could just mean that, as I wrote, they're playing multiple wings and switching things around.

Again, tip of the hat for finding that, and while the charts say that Martin didn't play PF-- and while I maintain that he's not any kind of solution for us against teams with bigger 4s-- the fair rejoinder to me would be that Martin should know better than I what position he's played. Like this interchange from Seinfeld, with me playing Kramer:

Jerry: I think I know when my birthday is!

Kramer: You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.

_________________________________________

[EDIT: I just realized that the SI article you linked was from 2022. 82games.com lists Martin as having played a small % of his time at PF in 2022, and I acknowledged in my original post to you that "He might have played a little 4 in 2022-23, but not well at all." I think I was pretty gracious in my response, above, but you weren't really playing fair. Miami apparently experimented a *little* in 2022 when they were short-handed, and apparently didn't like the experiment well enough to do it again the following year. The article that you linked states that one reason for Martin's very short-lived period at the 4 was because "the Heat need it with so many players sidelined because of injuries." Apparently, once the injured player came back the team didn't keep using Martin at the 4.

And as I wrote initially, Martin has wing measurements all the way. If he can be a starting PF on a good team, any wing can. And I really don't think that it works that way.]


If you play a wing-heavy rotation, the defensive matchups for positions 2-3-4 tend to shift throughout the game. For example, in the Mavs vs. Clippers series, Paul George might start at power forward matched up against PJ Washington, but he often ends up defending players like Doncic and Kyrie as the game progresses.

A good analogy is Tobias Harris. He struggles at small forward because defenders are as quick as he is, so he prefers playing power forward where he has a speed advantage. Doc Rivers and Harris often talk about pushing the pace or encouraging Harris to think less. At power forward, Harris can exploit his speed advantage in transition scoring.

My point is that the 2-3-4 positions are very fluid. Some forwards use their size to their advantage, and we can place Paul George against them. When facing quicker forwards, we can put Caleb Martin at power forward. If we need more offense, Caleb Martin and Kelly Oubre can take on most of George’s defensive load, allowing George to conserve energy for offense.

I don’t see any major issues with the power forward position given our team’s construction. The toughest matchups would be against players like Zion or Giannis, and in those cases, we can use strategies like shading, "wall" defense, or running a zone.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1682 » by Ben » Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:00 pm

76ciology wrote:If you play a wing-heavy rotation, the defensive matchups for positions 2-3-4 tend to shift throughout the game. For example, in the Mavs vs. Clippers series, Paul George might start at power forward matched up against PJ Washington, but he often ends up defending players like Doncic and Kyrie as the game progresses.

A good analogy is Tobias Harris. He struggles at small forward because defenders are as quick as he is, so he prefers playing power forward where he has a speed advantage. Doc Rivers and Harris often talk about pushing the pace or encouraging Harris to think less. At power forward, Harris can exploit his speed advantage in transition scoring.

My point is that the 2-3-4 positions are very fluid. Some forwards use their size to their advantage, and we can place Paul George against them. When facing quicker forwards, we can put Caleb Martin at power forward. If we need more offense, Caleb Martin and Kelly Oubre can take on most of George’s defensive load, allowing George to conserve energy for offense.

I don’t see any major issues with the power forward position given our team’s construction. The toughest matchups would be against players like Zion or Giannis, and in those cases, we can use strategies like shading, "wall" defense, or running a zone.


Absolutely, I get this and we've seen that wing fluidity increasingly in the present NBA era. But there's still a place for larger frontcourts. Porzingis-Horford is just one example. You mentioned Giannis and Zion. There's also Sabonis, Holmgren, Mobley, Siakam, Durant...
I worry about using Paul George to great effect against these forwards with size/ length.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1683 » by ckchen » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:02 pm

ProcessDoctor wrote:What would be your fix, given our current cap situation and needs?


Look, I don't think there are a lot of great options out there. Frankly, I would probably just try to sign a couple of guys with veteran minimums and see what shakes lose in the buyout market. Precious Achiuwa if he for some reason would sign for the minimum here, Pokusevski is probably more of a SF, but at least he's a 7 foot one. Marcus Morris. Maybe Muscala for a sort of perimeter shooting type 4. It's all downhil from there, Bertans, Jae Crowder if we're starting to get really desperate.

I've already expressed my skepticism with the KJ balloon/mid-season trade but if we absolutely had to try and make something like that work in $8-13M range(?), there might be other options:

Marvin Bagley. The Wiz are rebuilding, they might be looking to dump this guy, especially after they randomly signed Valunciunas to pretty big deal. Not an amazing option, but certainly not a terrible one for $12-13M expiring for a tanking team that we know will sell for a pick.

Similarly, Richaun Holmes. Bring home Richaun. I know he just signed a deal(?!), but here's a MUCH better example of "remind the Wizards that they are rebuilding, why did you sign a 30-yr old Richaun to a 2yr/$25M deal at all"

Kevin Looney. If Golden State ends up going nowhere, he's an expiring contract and they seem to be commited to Kuminga. Longshot probably, but who knows?

Brandon Clarke. He seems to have fallen out of favor in Memphis since signing his extension, barely plays 20mpg, trapped on the bench. Semi longshot, but seems like he might be available if they are going nowhere and looking to shed salary.

Jeff Green? Not sure why would want this old head, but he's making $8M for a Rockets team that has no need of him except to be the one vet on the team but to me, he seems available and at least could possibly squeeze a little life out of his dried out husk.

Are any of these perfect? Not really. Are most of them kind of centers in PF bodies? Possibly. Feel free to rip them, but to me they would all make more sense if we're dead-set on doing this balloon thing. Way more sense to than making a trade for a redundant, overvalued DFS.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1684 » by Covi_Marsh » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:08 pm

Ben wrote:


Touché, hats off to you for digging around and finding that.
For my part, here's a chart of his playing time, with 0% at the 4, and none of Miami's 5-main rotations list Martin at the 4. Which could just mean that, as I wrote, they're playing multiple wings and switching things around.

Again, tip of the hat for finding that, and while the charts say that Martin didn't play PF-- and while I maintain that he's not any kind of solution for us against teams with bigger 4s-- the fair rejoinder to me would be that Martin should know better than I what position he's played. Like this interchange from Seinfeld, with me playing Kramer:

Jerry: I think I know when my birthday is!

Kramer: You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.

_________________________________________

[EDIT: I just realized that the SI article you linked was from 2022. 82games.com lists Martin as having played a small % of his time at PF in 2022, and I acknowledged in my original post to you that "He might have played a little 4 in 2022-23, but not well at all." I think I was pretty gracious in my response, above, but you weren't really playing fair. Miami apparently experimented a *little* in 2022 when they were short-handed, and apparently didn't like the experiment well enough to do it again the following year. The article that you linked states that one reason for Martin's very short-lived period at the 4 was because "the Heat need it with so many players sidelined because of injuries." Apparently, once the injured player came back the team didn't keep using Martin at the 4.

And as I wrote initially, Martin has wing measurements all the way. If he can be a starting PF on a good team, any wing can. And I really don't think that it works that way.]


https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article272202833.html
That’s last season but it’s not that serious. Idk how I’m not playing fair and you’re being gracious. This wasn’t really a debate. The man himself said he was Miamis PF.

I also stated like others that Miami plays a switch heavy defense as well as zone. Martin also took the role of defending the other teams best perimeter scorer. So that probably contributes to why analytics say he doesn’t guard the position.

And it’s going to be the same way here. We will name him our PF, we will play switch heavy and zones. He will also alternate with Oubre taking on the other teams best scorer.

So what it comes down to is people rather say his position is whatever position he is guarding. Basketball is basically positionless now. We have wings: they will guard whoever the matchup is advantageous.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1685 » by LeonJordanJr24 » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:12 pm

Woj said that... now everybody ran with it lol . Martin is a 3/2 wing but 76ers 2-4 spots are positionaless when you got PG and KO in the mix.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1686 » by FireMorey » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:31 pm

Wonder why the Lowry decision is taking so long.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1687 » by ckchen » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:36 pm

FireMorey wrote:Wonder why the Lowry decision is taking so long.


Well, Phoenix is interested as well, he's probably holding out looking for better offers.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1688 » by Ben » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:42 pm

Covi_Marsh wrote:
Ben wrote:


Touché, hats off to you for digging around and finding that.
For my part, here's a chart of his playing time, with 0% at the 4, and none of Miami's 5-main rotations list Martin at the 4. Which could just mean that, as I wrote, they're playing multiple wings and switching things around.

Again, tip of the hat for finding that, and while the charts say that Martin didn't play PF-- and while I maintain that he's not any kind of solution for us against teams with bigger 4s-- the fair rejoinder to me would be that Martin should know better than I what position he's played. Like this interchange from Seinfeld, with me playing Kramer:

Jerry: I think I know when my birthday is!

Kramer: You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.

_________________________________________

[EDIT: I just realized that the SI article you linked was from 2022. 82games.com lists Martin as having played a small % of his time at PF in 2022, and I acknowledged in my original post to you that "He might have played a little 4 in 2022-23, but not well at all." I think I was pretty gracious in my response, above, but you weren't really playing fair. Miami apparently experimented a *little* in 2022 when they were short-handed, and apparently didn't like the experiment well enough to do it again the following year. The article that you linked states that one reason for Martin's very short-lived period at the 4 was because "the Heat need it with so many players sidelined because of injuries." Apparently, once the injured player came back the team didn't keep using Martin at the 4.

And as I wrote initially, Martin has wing measurements all the way. If he can be a starting PF on a good team, any wing can. And I really don't think that it works that way.]


https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article272202833.html
That’s last season but it’s not that serious. Idk how I’m not playing fair and you’re being gracious. This wasn’t really a debate. The man himself said he was Miamis PF.

I also stated like others that Miami plays a switch heavy defense as well as zone. Martin also took the role of defending the other teams best perimeter scorer. So that probably contributes to why analytics say he doesn’t guard the position.

And it’s going to be the same way here. We will name him our PF, we will play switch heavy and zones. He will also alternate with Oubre taking on the other teams best scorer.

So what it comes down to is people rather say his position is whatever position he is guarding. Basketball is basically positionless now. We have wings: they will guard whoever the matchup is advantageous.


Listen man, from your lips to god's ears. I hope like heck it can work out. I'm a worrier.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1689 » by ProcessDoctor » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:45 pm

ckchen wrote:
ProcessDoctor wrote:What would be your fix, given our current cap situation and needs?


Look, I don't think there are a lot of great options out there. Frankly, I would probably just try to sign a couple of guys with veteran minimums and see what shakes lose in the buyout market. Precious Achiuwa if he for some reason would sign for the minimum here, Pokusevski is probably more of a SF, but at least he's a 7 foot one. Marcus Morris. Maybe Muscala for a sort of perimeter shooting type 4. It's all downhil from there, Bertans, Jae Crowder if we're starting to get really desperate.

I've already expressed my skepticism with the KJ balloon/mid-season trade but if we absolutely had to try and make something like that work in $8-13M range(?), there might be other options:

Marvin Bagley. The Wiz are rebuilding, they might be looking to dump this guy, especially after they randomly signed Valunciunas to pretty big deal. Not an amazing option, but certainly not a terrible one for $12-13M expiring for a tanking team that we know will sell for a pick.

Similarly, Richaun Holmes. Bring home Richaun. I know he just signed a deal(?!), but here's a MUCH better example of "remind the Wizards that they are rebuilding, why did you sign a 30-yr old Richaun to a 2yr/$25M deal at all"

Kevin Looney. If Golden State ends up going nowhere, he's an expiring contract and they seem to be commited to Kuminga. Longshot probably, but who knows?

Brandon Clarke. He seems to have fallen out of favor in Memphis since signing his extension, barely plays 20mpg, trapped on the bench. Semi longshot, but seems like he might be available if they are going nowhere and looking to shed salary.

Jeff Green? Not sure why would want this old head, but he's making $8M for a Rockets team that has no need of him except to be the one vet on the team but to me, he seems available and at least could possibly squeeze a little life out of his dried out husk.

Are any of these perfect? Not really. Are most of them kind of centers in PF bodies? Possibly. Feel free to rip them, but to me they would all make more sense if we're dead-set on doing this balloon thing. Way more sense to than making a trade for a redundant, overvalued DFS.


Well Nurse said in an interview the other day he wants to everyone on the court to be able to shoot, so not sure any of those players sans Green are options. He’s shown us time and time again he’s not into the double big lineup as well.

I think we need to realize there isn’t going to be an immaculate piece for $8-15 mil, but if it’s better than what we have and at good value buy then it’s worth it given our all-in status. Not saying we mortgage our future, but one first for a player significantly better than ie Marcus Morris or KJ Martin? Seems worth it imo.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1690 » by 76ciology » Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:55 pm

FireMorey wrote:Wonder why the Lowry decision is taking so long.


They're likely negotiating whether to include a Kyle Lowry Museum in the deal.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1691 » by Covi_Marsh » Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:07 pm

Ben wrote:
Covi_Marsh wrote:
Ben wrote:
Touché, hats off to you for digging around and finding that.
For my part, here's a chart of his playing time, with 0% at the 4, and none of Miami's 5-main rotations list Martin at the 4. Which could just mean that, as I wrote, they're playing multiple wings and switching things around.

Again, tip of the hat for finding that, and while the charts say that Martin didn't play PF-- and while I maintain that he's not any kind of solution for us against teams with bigger 4s-- the fair rejoinder to me would be that Martin should know better than I what position he's played. Like this interchange from Seinfeld, with me playing Kramer:

Jerry: I think I know when my birthday is!

Kramer: You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.

_________________________________________

[EDIT: I just realized that the SI article you linked was from 2022. 82games.com lists Martin as having played a small % of his time at PF in 2022, and I acknowledged in my original post to you that "He might have played a little 4 in 2022-23, but not well at all." I think I was pretty gracious in my response, above, but you weren't really playing fair. Miami apparently experimented a *little* in 2022 when they were short-handed, and apparently didn't like the experiment well enough to do it again the following year. The article that you linked states that one reason for Martin's very short-lived period at the 4 was because "the Heat need it with so many players sidelined because of injuries." Apparently, once the injured player came back the team didn't keep using Martin at the 4.

And as I wrote initially, Martin has wing measurements all the way. If he can be a starting PF on a good team, any wing can. And I really don't think that it works that way.]


https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article272202833.html
That’s last season but it’s not that serious. Idk how I’m not playing fair and you’re being gracious. This wasn’t really a debate. The man himself said he was Miamis PF.

I also stated like others that Miami plays a switch heavy defense as well as zone. Martin also took the role of defending the other teams best perimeter scorer. So that probably contributes to why analytics say he doesn’t guard the position.

And it’s going to be the same way here. We will name him our PF, we will play switch heavy and zones. He will also alternate with Oubre taking on the other teams best scorer.

So what it comes down to is people rather say his position is whatever position he is guarding. Basketball is basically positionless now. We have wings: they will guard whoever the matchup is advantageous.


Listen man, from your lips to god's ears. I hope like heck it can work out. I'm a worrier.


Probably won’t :lol:
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1692 » by Covi_Marsh » Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:14 pm

LeonJordanJr24 wrote:Woj said that... now everybody ran with it lol . Martin is a 3/2 wing but 76ers 2-4 spots are positionaless when you got PG and KO in the mix.


Well Woj saying it made me look up if he ever actually played there. And he had interviews discussing playing the position. But Woj reports news and contract numbers. The fact he specifically named positions for Oubre and Martin makes us believe that he was fed those details. Whether we like it or not, it’s sounds like Oubre was promised a starting SG spot and Martin was brought in as a PF. In reality it’s just a guard, 3 wings and a center.

Our defense was pretty good last year with Tobias starting from an eye test. Idk the numbers.
We improved after game 1 vs Knicks if rebounding. I think actually scoring points will help with rebounding. Knicks offensive rebounds were so costly because we were struggling to score along with them. We for sure should be in the market for a bigger wing to add depth. Dont think we’ll be looking for a starter.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1693 » by Iverson Armband » Thu Jul 11, 2024 3:54 pm

PG should have no problem guarding the 4s of todays NBA, especially since he’s not going to be asked to shoulder most of the scoring load. Dude is getting paid 200M at age 34, he should be able to guard Jayson Tatum with a smile on his face for 20 minutes.

Maxey
Martin
Oubre
PG
Embiid
always a jump shot away.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1694 » by PhillyFan11 » Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:09 pm

The 15 I would go into the season with…

Maxey/Lowry/Downtin Jr
Martin/Gordon/McCain
Oubre/Council/KMart Jr
PG/Marcus Morris/JT Thor
Embiid/Drummond/Bona

Kmart Jr signed for $12M guaranteed in year 1 to move at the deadline
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1695 » by Jailblazers7 » Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:16 pm

I think we probably see Martin/Oubre on the toughest assignments so we can let PG play free safety for a good chunk of the season. Nurse is gonna have them creating a lot of fast break opportunities for Maxey.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1696 » by sodmoraes » Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:30 pm

With PG, Martin and gordon being good/great shooters i actually can see Maxey averaging 8 apg this year. I dont think hes a true pg( although he improved a lot last season) , but if he averaged 6 apg last year with Tobias, everything is possible lol.

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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1697 » by ckchen » Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:50 pm

ProcessDoctor wrote:Well Nurse said in an interview the other day he wants to everyone on the court to be able to shoot, so not sure any of those players sans Green are options. He’s shown us time and time again he’s not into the double big lineup as well.

I think we need to realize there isn’t going to be an immaculate piece for $8-15 mil, but if it’s better than what we have and at good value buy then it’s worth it given our all-in status. Not saying we mortgage our future, but one first for a player significantly better than ie Marcus Morris or KJ Martin? Seems worth it imo.


That seems incredibly dismissive and kind of bs reasoning. Everyone on the team had to be able to shoot.... Except for Andre Drummond i guess? since he hasnt hit a three barely in his life. This type of off the cuff remark in an interview doesn't and shouldn't limit morey in any way tbh. His job is to maximize the value of his assets and clearly if nurse can decide to run the team with a can't shoot at all Andre Drummond other players who don't necessarily shoot threes also shouldn't matter. There needs to be some level of consideration of being able to defend big forwards, rebound, etc outside of just saying " everyone needs to be able to shoot."

That said it's not like everyone's favorite dfs is some kind of deadeye shot either in fact his percentages make it pretty clear he's kind of awful tbh. . I'd rather have a big forward who can defend actual 4s and shoot well from 15 ft in than whatever people think dfs will do.

That said, I'm not even the one clamoring for any kj deal. Bertans, muscala, even poku kind of can he had for a vet min probably if somehow all that matters is just an ability to shoot.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1698 » by FireMorey » Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:59 pm

Lowry back to Sixers. I think next is Marcus Morris or Reggie Bullock.
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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1699 » by eyeatoma » Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:02 pm

Damn didn't really want Lowry back. Nurse will lean into him too much.

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Re: Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4 

Post#1700 » by Ksny13 » Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:06 pm

eyeatoma wrote:Damn didn't really want Lowry back. Nurse will lean into him too much.

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Lowry is still a productive 15 MPG player on a championship caliber team. He brings a great veteran presence. He's a good person to have on the team come playoff time especially with two guys in PG and Joel who shrink in the playoffs.

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