Cooper Flagg

[12footrim]

nm multiple post

[12footrim]

His quickness is more than adequate. His incredible processing speed makes him first to the spot time and time again. I wouldn't put too much stock into "wing quickness." Reminds me of what was said of Jayson Tatum; turned out to be a non-issue. Just because he might be more optimal and a potentially bigger mismatch at PF doesn't mean he's not suitable at SF.

His quickness at 17 years old and 200lb pounds "might" be. You talk about him adding weight. You do understand as he ages and gains this weight even if it's mostly muscle, you still lose some of quickness and speed no matter how good the weight is. He's is likely the lightest quickest version of himself that he will ever be in his life right now, before he starts adding weight to play in the post and watching his quick twitch athleticism decline which happens to everyone. The reason basketball players can offset this is most get stronger and more experienced and skilled until about the age of 25 to 27 before the athletic decline overtakes the offset.

My prediction? Cooper is drafted at 205-215 pounds and adds roughly 20-30 pounds and ends up around 230-240 pounds. More than enough for the modern PF position.

There is no doubt Flagg can add weight over time. He doesn't even look like a hard gainer. The only question is how many years odes it take. The problem is when he adds this weight it's also at a cost of some speed. It just does, so if he's not a plus athlete where does that leave his wing speed then? He's not moving the same at 230 or 240 like you suggest as he does currently.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Please elaborate. LeBron? Tatum? Bird? Durant? Barkley?

First off one of those is not like the others. Set Tatum aside for a moment. The other three are all time greats with all time great skills. LeBron just from the start is an all time elite passer and athlete. Bird is an all time shooter who was a great rebounder and passer to boot, and Barkley was an all time athlete who was an all time rebounder. Rebounding is essential for a post player too, so it made it more than possible for him to play there. Also when he moved to more SF some more around his MVP year, you notice he lost a ton of weight. He had to have enough speed, like we talked about earlier. That's how that works.

I don't think Flagg is anything like those players. He doesn't shoot that well, low volume 38% from three on a short high school line. Under 80% FT, doesn't rebound well enough to even pass as a PF possibly in high school 7 a game. He blocks shots 2.8 shots a game. That's his "elite" skill. It's not like he's even blocking 5 a game like AD did in college and this is something that has nothing to do with the kind of team you play on really. It's you reacting to shots at the rim so you can't even blame that.

Even Tatum was a much more dominate scorer at the same point. So basically you are asking can a pretty average athlete, scorer and shooter, rebounder by those standards become any of them? How does he do it, blocking shots? That's the only exceptional thing he did in his statistical resume in high school and even that was fairly meh.

[VFX]

Anyone that has a hard stance on a high school prospect, that isn’t watching his games and looking only at box scores, should probably reevaluate why they feel this way instead of listening to the people that have been doing it professionally and drawing their conclusions.

[12footrim]

Anyone that has a hard stance on a high school prospect, that isn’t watching his games and looking only at box scores, should probably reevaluate why they feel this way instead of listening to the people that have been doing it professionally and drawing their conclusions.

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

The stats are the stats and they see all games. He could average the exact same thing he did in high school at Duke, and that's not even a top 5 player in college basketball at those percentages. It's kind of hard to put up pretty average stats and be the next LeBron level prospect like I've seen him billed. It just is. That's just common sense if you are just a dude on a team of good high school players and not seperating yourself really.

Go look at the average high school rankings and draft bust. These professionals and coaches get a TON of stuff wrong. There is a reason there are now 2000 transfers in college basketball too and most is a market correction, the best player in the world current MVP drafted 42nd, etc etc. It's just there opinions, which many times are ridiculously wrong. I get stuff wrong too, but at least I am basing a lot of my opinion on tangible unbiased objective measures what you did on the court.

[VFX]

Anyone that has a hard stance on a high school prospect, that isn’t watching his games and looking only at box scores, should probably reevaluate why they feel this way instead of listening to the people that have been doing it professionally and drawing their conclusions.

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

The stats are the stats and they see all games. He could average the exact same thing he did in high school at Duke, and that's not even a top 5 player in college basketball at those percentages. It's kind of hard to put up pretty average stats and be the next LeBron level prospect like I've seen him billed. It just is. That's just common sense if you are just a dude on a team of good high school players and not seperating yourself really.

Go look at the average high school rankings and draft bust. These professionals and coaches get a TON of stuff wrong. There is a reason there are now 2000 transfers in college basketball too and most is a market correction, the best player in the world current MVP drafted 42nd, etc etc. It's just there opinions, which many times are ridiculously wrong. I get stuff wrong too, but at least I am basing a lot of my opinion on tangible unbiased objective measures what you did on the court.

I have watched zero total minutes on Flagg and haven’t drawn conclusions either way. Why? Because nobody has seen him play against college level competition and I’m not going to base everything on 8 minutes of blurry albeit promising scrimmage footage.

Guy could be great or he could be overrated. I’m going to lean toward someone like Sam Vecenie’s opinion, who has seen enough prospects over a decade, before we see him at Duke. There are a lot of reasons why people want to take hard stances on this guy before he steps foot onto a college floor. The reality is that he’s not any of the guys you listed and he’s also not overrated as a prospect.

There is no reason to claim this guy is Larry Bird or Mike Dunleavy Jr before seeing him play a minute of college ball. That just screams agenda in either direction.

[12footrim]

Anyone that has a hard stance on a high school prospect, that isn’t watching his games and looking only at box scores, should probably reevaluate why they feel this way instead of listening to the people that have been doing it professionally and drawing their conclusions.

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

The stats are the stats and they see all games. He could average the exact same thing he did in high school at Duke, and that's not even a top 5 player in college basketball at those percentages. It's kind of hard to put up pretty average stats and be the next LeBron level prospect like I've seen him billed. It just is. That's just common sense if you are just a dude on a team of good high school players and not seperating yourself really.

Go look at the average high school rankings and draft bust. These professionals and coaches get a TON of stuff wrong. There is a reason there are now 2000 transfers in college basketball too and most is a market correction, the best player in the world current MVP drafted 42nd, etc etc. It's just there opinions, which many times are ridiculously wrong. I get stuff wrong too, but at least I am basing a lot of my opinion on tangible unbiased objective measures what you did on the court.

I have watched zero total minutes on Flagg and haven’t drawn conclusions either way. Why? Because nobody has seen him play against college level competition and I’m not going to base everything on 8 minutes of blurry albeit promising scrimmage footage.

Guy could be great or he could be overrated. I’m going to lean toward someone like Sam Vecenie’s opinion, who has seen enough prospects over a decade, before we see him at Duke. There are a lot of reasons why people want to take hard stances on this guy before he steps foot onto a college floor. The reality is that he’s not any of the guys you listed and he’s also not overrated as a prospect.

I'll play the game. Let's just say whoever you trust scouting him see's him a few times each of the last few years. What does that really even tell you other than a baseline lenght and athleticism (possibly). Hell even with that he could have seen him on a day he had gotten little sleep and be sluggish or sick etc.

The reality is you don't know what you are really watching from game to game if you only seed a handful of games. You'd have to watch every game. I've seen nobodies go 7-9 from three point range that shoot 25% on the year, and if that's all you see you'd think they were Steph Curry. There is a thing called bias and recency bias too where maybe what you really remember or take away is a highlight dunk.

Likewise you see players averaging 40ppg drop a 6-24 shoot dud and what's the impression? You don't know what you are watching or the baseline expectations of what you watch without knowing the stats. The stats see all game, every minute of every game every player plays and every other player plays. That's the only you can even compare them objectively. The human mind can't see every game or process it, they can't even see enough of every game of every player to even know what they are watching. You can't do it objectively when the groupthink gets in there either.

I'm just using common sense here. If a guy is averaging 16ppg 7rpg 4apg, 3bpg on the percentages he did and barely outshining some other good players on his own high school team, how does that really project to college? How does a 17 year old 200lb tweener post player do vs super seniors. I think common sense should suggest skepticism vs some of these projections. That's all I'm saying.

[VFX]

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

The stats are the stats and they see all games. He could average the exact same thing he did in high school at Duke, and that's not even a top 5 player in college basketball at those percentages. It's kind of hard to put up pretty average stats and be the next LeBron level prospect like I've seen him billed. It just is. That's just common sense if you are just a dude on a team of good high school players and not seperating yourself really.

Go look at the average high school rankings and draft bust. These professionals and coaches get a TON of stuff wrong. There is a reason there are now 2000 transfers in college basketball too and most is a market correction, the best player in the world current MVP drafted 42nd, etc etc. It's just there opinions, which many times are ridiculously wrong. I get stuff wrong too, but at least I am basing a lot of my opinion on tangible unbiased objective measures what you did on the court.

I have watched zero total minutes on Flagg and haven’t drawn conclusions either way. Why? Because nobody has seen him play against college level competition and I’m not going to base everything on 8 minutes of blurry albeit promising scrimmage footage.

Guy could be great or he could be overrated. I’m going to lean toward someone like Sam Vecenie’s opinion, who has seen enough prospects over a decade, before we see him at Duke. There are a lot of reasons why people want to take hard stances on this guy before he steps foot onto a college floor. The reality is that he’s not any of the guys you listed and he’s also not overrated as a prospect.

I'll play the game. Let's just say whoever you trust scouting him see's him a few times each of the last few years. What does that really even tell you other than a baseline lenght and athleticism (possibly). Hell even with that he could have seen him on a day he had gotten little sleep and be sluggish or sick etc.

The reality is you don't know what you are really watching from game to game if you only seed a handful of games. You'd have to watch every game. I've seen nobodies go 7-9 from three point range that shoot 25% on the year, and if that's all you see you'd think they were Steph Curry. There is a thing called bias and recency bias too where maybe what you really remember or take away is a highlight dunk.

Likewise you see players averaging 40ppg drop a 6-24 shoot dud and what's the impression? You don't know what you are watching or the baseline expectations of what you watch without knowing the stats. The stats see all game, every minute of every game every player plays and every other player plays. That's the only you can even compare them objectively. The human mind can't see every game or process it, they can't even see enough of every game of every player to even know what they are watching. You can't do it objectively when the groupthink gets in there either.

I'm just using common sense here. If a guy is averaging 16ppg 7rpg 4apg, 3bpg on the percentages he did and barely outshining some other good players on his own high school team, how does that really project to college? How does a 17 year old 200lb tweener post player do vs super seniors. I think common sense should suggest skepticism vs some of these projections. That's all I'm saying.

You must have thought Jaden Hardy was going to be a multi time allstar and Monta Ellis was the next Jordan based on their high school numbers then right?

[12footrim]

I have watched zero total minutes on Flagg and haven’t drawn conclusions either way. Why? Because nobody has seen him play against college level competition and I’m not going to base everything on 8 minutes of blurry albeit promising scrimmage footage.

Guy could be great or he could be overrated. I’m going to lean toward someone like Sam Vecenie’s opinion, who has seen enough prospects over a decade, before we see him at Duke. There are a lot of reasons why people want to take hard stances on this guy before he steps foot onto a college floor. The reality is that he’s not any of the guys you listed and he’s also not overrated as a prospect.

I'll play the game. Let's just say whoever you trust scouting him see's him a few times each of the last few years. What does that really even tell you other than a baseline lenght and athleticism (possibly). Hell even with that he could have seen him on a day he had gotten little sleep and be sluggish or sick etc.

The reality is you don't know what you are really watching from game to game if you only seed a handful of games. You'd have to watch every game. I've seen nobodies go 7-9 from three point range that shoot 25% on the year, and if that's all you see you'd think they were Steph Curry. There is a thing called bias and recency bias too where maybe what you really remember or take away is a highlight dunk.

Likewise you see players averaging 40ppg drop a 6-24 shoot dud and what's the impression? You don't know what you are watching or the baseline expectations of what you watch without knowing the stats. The stats see all game, every minute of every game every player plays and every other player plays. That's the only you can even compare them objectively. The human mind can't see every game or process it, they can't even see enough of every game of every player to even know what they are watching. You can't do it objectively when the groupthink gets in there either.

I'm just using common sense here. If a guy is averaging 16ppg 7rpg 4apg, 3bpg on the percentages he did and barely outshining some other good players on his own high school team, how does that really project to college? How does a 17 year old 200lb tweener post player do vs super seniors. I think common sense should suggest skepticism vs some of these projections. That's all I'm saying.

You must have thought Jaden Hardy was going to be allstar and Monta Ellis was the next Jordan based on their high school numbers then right?

Nice exaggeration. Let's explore your OWN example who''s career is complete.

Monta Ellis averaged 25ppg, 4rpg, 6apg in the NBA a couple of years and is a career 17.8ppg scorer, back before the points inflation. Over a long 12 year career. I call that a good career, and he was drafted 40th by these "experts". Seems to have had some value, more than anyone ever gave it credit for in the evaluations because he's one of the best 2nd rounders ever picked.


The real difference is I don't read anything into some random player putting up high school stats. There are little 6 foot Rudy three point shooters scoring 30ppg in high school all over the country going to D2 or playing on club teams. You understand the difference I hope. It's not only the stats, or just any guy who puts up crazy stats. It's certainly about the level of competition too, but also more about what you aren't doing sometimes too.

Who I do expect to dominate high school however is the guy people are saying is the best high school prospect since LeBron 20 years ago. That's the difference.

[KembaWalker]

“Best prospect since LeBron” has to be the biggest nba draft meme at this point

[VFX]

I'll play the game. Let's just say whoever you trust scouting him see's him a few times each of the last few years. What does that really even tell you other than a baseline lenght and athleticism (possibly). Hell even with that he could have seen him on a day he had gotten little sleep and be sluggish or sick etc.

The reality is you don't know what you are really watching from game to game if you only seed a handful of games. You'd have to watch every game. I've seen nobodies go 7-9 from three point range that shoot 25% on the year, and if that's all you see you'd think they were Steph Curry. There is a thing called bias and recency bias too where maybe what you really remember or take away is a highlight dunk.

Likewise you see players averaging 40ppg drop a 6-24 shoot dud and what's the impression? You don't know what you are watching or the baseline expectations of what you watch without knowing the stats. The stats see all game, every minute of every game every player plays and every other player plays. That's the only you can even compare them objectively. The human mind can't see every game or process it, they can't even see enough of every game of every player to even know what they are watching. You can't do it objectively when the groupthink gets in there either.

I'm just using common sense here. If a guy is averaging 16ppg 7rpg 4apg, 3bpg on the percentages he did and barely outshining some other good players on his own high school team, how does that really project to college? How does a 17 year old 200lb tweener post player do vs super seniors. I think common sense should suggest skepticism vs some of these projections. That's all I'm saying.

You must have thought Jaden Hardy was going to be allstar and Monta Ellis was the next Jordan based on their high school numbers then right?

The real difference is I don't read anything into some random player putting up high school stats.

Who I do expect to dominate high school however is the guy people are saying is the best high school prospect since LeBron 20 years ago. That's the difference.

That’s what it seems like you are doing in your assessments of a player that is considered universally the consensus #1 prospect.

Anybody calling Flagg the best prospect since Lebron or Jordan is setting up expectations for him to fall short. I don’t take them seriously similar to anyone saying this kid, nobody has actually watched, a bust.

[scrabbarista]

“Best prospect since LeBron” has to be the biggest nba draft meme at this point

Except Wemby is obviously one of the greatest if not the greatest prospect ever.

[Jabroni Lames]

“Best prospect since LeBron” has to be the biggest nba draft meme at this point

Yeah... because Wemby exceeded that.

[Duffman100]

“Best prospect since LeBron” has to be the biggest nba draft meme at this point

Except Wemby is obviously one of the greatest if not the greatest prospect ever.

I still give it to Lebron, but I think Wemby is in the top 3 with Lebron and KAJ.

[scrabbarista]

“Best prospect since LeBron” has to be the biggest nba draft meme at this point

Except Wemby is obviously one of the greatest if not the greatest prospect ever.

I still give it to Lebron, but I think Wemby is in the top 3 with Lebron and KAJ.

Wilt is in the mix, I think. Anyways, Flagg is great, but nowhere near these guys as a prospect.

[hippesthippo]

What's up with the AK-47 comps?

Dude plays nothing at all like him

Because he's a freakish defensive prospect. Crazy mobility, length, and timing to the point where he's regularly blocking jumpers. It's what pops most about his game right now. The comps to AD, KG, and AK47 capture that part of his theoretical value/impact at the NBA level.

His offensive game is pretty interesting too. Crazy elevation on his pull up jumper. Promise of functional handles and very good touch. High BBIQ with some of his passing and movement.

Agreed on that pull-up jumper. He's making that shot over the top of other guys and with hands in his face... at least in the mid-range. Marion and AK never had that type of tough shot making capability.

[Duke4life831]

Anyone that has a hard stance on a high school prospect, that isn’t watching his games and looking only at box scores, should probably reevaluate why they feel this way instead of listening to the people that have been doing it professionally and drawing their conclusions.

To add to this. As someone who has seen a lot of his full games (team USA, AAU, and most of his high school games were televised or streamed). Unless someone is truly a freak physical prospect (like a LeBron, Wemby, Shaq), I would hold off on any hard stance when it comes to trying to evaluate high school guys.

Not saying you can’t be really high on a prospect (I’m very high on Flagg). But there are just so many variables to factor in on if the prospect is going to hit his ceiling or not.

[Lalouie]

what is the one thing he does really really well

because you know the "thing" about "jack of all trades"

and that one thing he should do really really well is SCORE, because anything else and there's ONLY ONE dude who came in with ink as a do everything player and his game truly truly reflected it,,,and the was walton

other than that, "jack of all trades" don't get this kind of ink. so yes in that respect flagg is overrated and i haven't even seen his game yet. he's going to have to move the needle by several wins in parity. wemby didn't and flagg will get drafted by det/char/wiz/por/sas

spurs would be interesting. make it happen, adam. if it's spurs, cooper only has to be a toolbox, he doesn't have to score

[Optms]

Anyone that has a hard stance on a high school prospect, that isn’t watching his games and looking only at box scores, should probably reevaluate why they feel this way instead of listening to the people that have been doing it professionally and drawing their conclusions.

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

[12footrim]

Anyone that has a hard stance on a high school prospect, that isn’t watching his games and looking only at box scores, should probably reevaluate why they feel this way instead of listening to the people that have been doing it professionally and drawing their conclusions.

I assume this is directed at me. I've only taken a hard stance that I don't think Flagg is going to dominate college basketball and be a top 5 player like I'm seeing projected, or that he's comparable to players like AD, LeBron, Barkley, Bird etc I've seen him mentioned with. I also said one scrimmage where some of these national pundits slobber over him is pretty ridiculous, because it is. I watched the 10 minutes of it posted on youtube too.

Not really.

You overlook the fact that he was selected by these evaluators when forming the select team. So we need to get it out of the way that he was already projected good enough to be on the team.

Now we get to the scrimmage itself - he went from competing against 16 year Olds to holding his own against the best players in the world. Getting Buckets against some of the NBAs most elite defenders.

These pundits have every right to slobber over him. He was already projected to go number 1. Now we've seen him hold on his own against the best in the world. Many of us don't need to see him in college at this point to realize he's going to be special. Because a mere scrimmage against elite NBA players tells us way more than college games when evaluating how a kid will do long term. College games that don't even play the same playstyle of the NBA game, nevermind the vastly inferior competition. What you are basically saying is "he did well against the Boston Celtics Tuesdays night, but let's see how he does against the G-league fort Wayne mad ants" Friday.

So in your words he's going to be the number 1 player in college next year, obviously right if you believe all that.

All that from a scrimmage, coming off a year he averaged 16ppg, 7rpg, 4apg in HIGH SCHOOL and 9ppg the year prior.

So now he's going to come in and dominate college because he played well in a scrimmage that he probably treated like the biggest game in his life.You act like it was game 7 for the NBA players. They were practicing. Ever think he was pumped up, and they were just trying to not get hurt and get some reps in the middle of the summer.

He made a couple three's which isn't even his thing, (38% low volume in high school, 78% FT shooter). Ok crown him I guess, except he sucked in the McDonalds all American game in front of people if you want to hold exhibitions up as the end all be all. 3-9 shooting.

Why didn't he stand out on his high school team? Why didn't he block more shots or grab more rebounds? That has nothing to do with the coaching. The guy was just a 16ppg 7rpg guy on his HS team vs High schoolers. He didn't even stand out on his own team statistically. Barely led it in scoring tied in rebounding.

Again I've never said he can't be a good NBA player years from now or that he wouldn't be a #1 pick, but this best prospect since LeBron crap is stupid. So is projecting him to dominate college and be the best player in year one like many national media think.

Ok so what are his college stats next year? Better than 16ppg 7rpg? The guy that couldn't put up better stats on 17 year old high schoolers is going to do it in college next year right. Say it. A 17 and 200lb power forward is going to dominate college right? Let's get your projected stats on the record.

[FrodoBaggins]

His quickness is more than adequate. His incredible processing speed makes him first to the spot time and time again. I wouldn't put too much stock into "wing quickness." Reminds me of what was said of Jayson Tatum; turned out to be a non-issue. Just because he might be more optimal and a potentially bigger mismatch at PF doesn't mean he's not suitable at SF.

His quickness at 17 years old and 200lb pounds "might" be. You talk about him adding weight. You do understand as he ages and gains this weight even if it's mostly muscle, you still lose some of quickness and speed no matter how good the weight is. He's is likely the lightest quickest version of himself that he will ever be in his life right now, before he starts adding weight to play in the post and watching his quick twitch athleticism decline which happens to everyone. The reason basketball players can offset this is most get stronger and more experienced and skilled until about the age of 25 to 27 before the athletic decline overtakes the offset.

My prediction? Cooper is drafted at 205-215 pounds and adds roughly 20-30 pounds and ends up around 230-240 pounds. More than enough for the modern PF position.

There is no doubt Flagg can add weight over time. He doesn't even look like a hard gainer. The only question is how many years odes it take. The problem is when he adds this weight it's also at a cost of some speed. It just does, so if he's not a plus athlete where does that leave his wing speed then? He's not moving the same at 230 or 240 like you suggest as he does currently.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Please elaborate. LeBron? Tatum? Bird? Durant? Barkley?

First off one of those is not like the others. Set Tatum aside for a moment. The other three are all time greats with all time great skills. LeBron just from the start is an all time elite passer and athlete. Bird is an all time shooter who was a great rebounder and passer to boot, and Barkley was an all time athlete who was an all time rebounder. Rebounding is essential for a post player too, so it made it more than possible for him to play there. Also when he moved to more SF some more around his MVP year, you notice he lost a ton of weight. He had to have enough speed, like we talked about earlier. That's how that works.

I don't think Flagg is anything like those players. He doesn't shoot that well, low volume 38% from three on a short high school line. Under 80% FT, doesn't rebound well enough to even pass as a PF possibly in high school 7 a game. He blocks shots 2.8 shots a game. That's his "elite" skill. It's not like he's even blocking 5 a game like AD did in college and this is something that has nothing to do with the kind of team you play on really. It's you reacting to shots at the rim so you can't even blame that.

Even Tatum was a much more dominate scorer at the same point. So basically you are asking can a pretty average athlete, scorer and shooter, rebounder by those standards become any of them? How does he do it, blocking shots? That's the only exceptional thing he did in his statistical resume in high school and even that was fairly meh.

His quickness at 17 years old and 200lb pounds "might" be. You talk about him adding weight. You do understand as he ages and gains this weight even if it's mostly muscle, you still lose some of quickness and speed no matter how good the weight is. He's is likely the lightest quickest version of himself that he will ever be in his life right now, before he starts adding weight to play in the post and watching his quick twitch athleticism decline which happens to everyone. The reason basketball players can offset this is most get stronger and more experienced and skilled until about the age of 25 to 27 before the athletic decline overtakes the offset.

1) Quickness and speed are lost naturally, as a result of aging. It doesn't matter if a player maintains the weight and body composition he had in high school or college.

2) Lifting weights doesn't make you slower. It actually does the opposite, which is why Olympic sprinters are jacked and aren't built like marathon runners. The partial squat is a staple exercise for 100m sprinters. Charlie Francis had Ben Johnson doing 600-pound squats. Most high jumpers, long jumpers, triple jumpers, and sprinters do some form of a heavy squat (partial usually for specificity), an Olympic lift like a power clean, plyometric exercise, and potentially some speed work on the track.

It's been known for several decades now that lifting weights makes you more explosive not less. Since the late '80s in the NBA.

Let me ELI5 modern strength and conditioning for sports performance:

- Lift heavy on compound exercises to improve maximal/absolute strength.
- Lift explosively on Olympic lifts/suitable variations as well as do plyometric exercise to improve rate of force development, power production, elasticity/tendon stiffness, etc...
- Sprint fast and do some different speed work.

Strength, speed, power. Force x velocity = power. It's not complicated.

Any changes in weight are to improve those qualities. Size doesn't come at the expense of performance. Muscle mass is added and body fat percentage stays low to maximize relative qualities. The point to which lean body mass (LBM) starts to compromise power-to-weight ratio, strength-to-weight ratio, speed/quickness is far higher than you think it is. And is frankly hard to reach naturally without PEDs.

Usain Bolt was 6'5" tall and weighed close to 210 pounds in his prime. Despite being older and 225-230 pounds, Jayson Tatum is clearly more explosive today in the NBA than he was in high school and college. AD was no slower at 253 pounds in 2015 than he was in high school and college. Giannis became even more explosive once he hit the weights and added mass.

Examples of guys getting bigger and slower are not proof that lifting weights makes you slow. They're usually references to strength and conditioning done incorrectly, which is more common than you'd think, even today.