Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 — George Mikan

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Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 — George Mikan 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:34 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1950-51.

Player of the Year (POY) — most accomplished overall player of that season.
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY) — most accomplished offensive player of that season.
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY) — most accomplished defensive player of that season.

Voting will close sometime after 12:30 PM EST on Monday, July 15th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#2 » by eminence » Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:40 pm

Glad for the addition of rebound tracking this season, much easier to estimate minutes for non-scorers.

Also happy about contraction, much easier to compare to later years in terms of talent distribution. Average team at a much higher level in '51 than '50. Though some talent was lost when teams folded/changed leagues (Komenich) it's more than made up for by the better concentration and the arrival of several big name rookies.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#3 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:53 pm

I have Macauley and Schayes pretty close for 2nd in this one. Groza seems like worse than Macauley as the latter scoring stats are close but is better passer. Macauley's stats are better than Schayes and the latter's team disappoints this year, but the overall body of work for Schayes impact in his career looks better. I believe Schayes is NOT a better floor spacer than him this year, he became the Dirk of his league later on.

After that, 5th is relatively open, I don't think it has to be Arizin as he has a great scoring season but seems mediocre at passing and D. Risen is the most significant playoff performer for the Royals to me, he is the unofficial Finals MVP (good blog for this https://prohoopshistory.substack.com/p/the-lost-finals-mvp-1951) and is obviously key in upsetting Mikan.

Leaning towards voting for excellent guards like Senesky and Martin for 2nd/3rd on D over reaching for bigs with half decent reputations just because they're bigs, although Risen deserves credit it seems for keeping Mikan relatively in check.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#4 » by Djoker » Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:59 pm

This is the season Cousy entered the NBA but I don't think he will make my top 5 as a rookie. I look forward to discussing him in future threads though since he is also in a small group of players that revolutionized how the game is played.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#5 » by AEnigma » Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:22 pm

Interesting year. Mikan is still obviously the best player, and the Lakers separate themselves more in the regular season than they had the prior year. However, Groza thoroughly outscores him in a tight three-game series win for the Lakers (who were outscored overall by one point). Then Mikan is similarly reduced from his regular season level against the Royals.

1949: 28.3 points per game on 49.8% efficiency —> 30.3 points per game on 54.1% efficiency in the postseason
1950: 27.4 points per game on 48.7% efficiency —> 31.3 points per game on 48.1% efficiency in the postseason
1951: 28.4 points per game on 50.9% efficiency —> 24.0 points per game on 47.7% efficiency in the postseason

Does not mean anyone else will take the crown, with the champion Royals splitting team credit and the runner-up Knicks not having a clear MVP talent, but certainly a vulnerable year, and I hope people are willing to not just automatically lock him in at the top spot. If nothing else, he is completely out from my consideration for Offensive Player of the Year (which is suddenly much more competitive with Cousy/Arizin’s entrance and Beard’s improvement).

Mikan, Davies, and Schayes are all Player of the Year locks for me. In strong ballot consideration are Arizin, Risen, Groza, Beard, and one of the Knicks. Macauley out of the discussion for me because I think both Groza and Arizin were better players among the less relevant teams.

League’s “Best” Scorers (alphabetically):
- Alex Groza
- Arnie Risen
- Bob Davies
- Dolph Schayes
- Ed Macauley
- Frankie Brian
- Fred Schaus
- George Mikan
- Paul Arizin
- Ralph Beard
- Vern Mikkelsen
- Vince Boryla

All of them were in the top 15 for points per game, and all of them except Frankie Brian were in the top 25 for TS Add (sympathetic to Brian here because that team had terrible scoring alternatives, and his efficiency was positive in both surrounding seasons).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#6 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:53 pm

AEnigma wrote:Macauley out of the discussion for me because I think both Groza and Arizin were better players among the less relevant teams.


Groza had a crazy playoffs performance so I understand if someone uses that to put him over Macauley, however looking at his stats vs Arizin's

Macauley 20.4 pts, 9.1 reb, 3.7 ast, .551 TS% (39-30 record)
Arizin 17.2 pts, 9.2 reb, 2.1 ast, .512 TS% (40-26)

Macauley's non boxscore is questionable but I'm not sure I should be super high on rookie Arizin in that department either. I like Phillip this year as much as Cousy so who's supporting cast is better probably depends on whether Fulks (taking 21 shots a game at TS% below the lowest team in the league, yikes!) is a genuine negative or attracting enough attention to be slightly positive like a Derozan. Senesky also seems like more of a real guy than the non Cousy/Macauley Celtics unless I'm missing someone, in addition to the defensive rep he was also 3rd in the league in assists.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#7 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:56 pm

The most noteworthy thing about the actual basketball results this year is the Lakers losing. Mikan was injured while this happened, but how badly? When people talk about playing with a "broken leg" it brings up the image of a guy hobbling around with a full leg cast...which isn't how things ever are.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#8 » by Tim Lehrbach » Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:40 pm

Only video I can find so far is the first few seconds of the debut all-star game. Any other sources?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#9 » by AEnigma » Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:57 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Macauley out of the discussion for me because I think both Groza and Arizin were better players among the less relevant teams.

Groza had a crazy playoffs performance so I understand if someone uses that to put him over Macauley, however looking at his stats vs Arizin's

Macauley 20.4 pts, 9.1 reb, 3.7 ast, .551 TS% (39-30 record)
Arizin 17.2 pts, 9.2 reb, 2.1 ast, .512 TS% (40-26)

Macauley's non boxscore is questionable but I'm not sure I should be super high on rookie Arizin in that department either. I like Phillip this year as much as Cousy so who's supporting cast is better probably depends on whether Fulks (taking 21 shots a game at TS% below the lowest team in the league, yikes!) is a genuine negative or attracting enough attention to be slightly positive like a Derozan. Senesky also seems like more of a real guy than the non Cousy/Macauley Celtics unless I'm missing someone, in addition to the defensive rep he was also 3rd in the league in assists.

Okay, will work through this a little more.

The 1950 Warriors go 21-30 with Ron Livingstone. From what I can infer, they start Senesky, Gardner, Fulks, and Livingstone, with a rotation of Mogus, Bobb, Fleishman, Bornheimer, and Crossin around that “core” four. In 1951, they add rookie Arizin, Phillip from the Stags, and Closs from the Packers, and lose Fleishman, Bornheimer, and Crossin. That group starts off 19-14 (+1.5), then they add Ed Mikan after the Capitols fold to go 21-12 (+6!) the rest of the way. In 1952, Arizin improves, and they add rookie Neil Johnston, but they lose Mogus, Livingstone, and Closs, and the team is a disappointing 33-33 (-1 SRS).

So you are probably right to question Arizin’s rookie impact.

The problem is that the Celtics are much messier. They do go from 22-46 to 39-30, and they maintain that the following year at 39-27, but they add Macauley and Cousy and Bob Donham and Bob Harris and Bones McKinney (all of whom stick around in 1952)… and they also add Red Auerbach.

I will walk back my outright exclusion of Macauley, but I am still skeptical he was a truly more valuable player that year than someone like Harry Gallatin or Arnie Risen.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#10 » by eminence » Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:43 pm

Thoughts by team, worst to first by SRS. Teams were all relatively close.

Capitols - Folded halfway through, not much to say. Couple of their guys got picked up, but none did anything that noteworthy this season.

Blackhawks - Defense first (hard to distinguish between Christensen/Todorovich/Hermsen), Brian/Eddleman headlining a bad offense. Don't think I'll have any vote getters here. Brian 2nd Team All-NBA, Eddleman an Allstar

Olympians - #8 by record, #9 by SRS, two first teamers. First teamers are banned and the team is a bit better next season - something is off here. Defense improved from last season, but the offense has fallen off a cliff. I'll have Groza in contention again this season, but no way I can see both stars in contention on this level of team. See Groza's season as a step down from his last season. Close PO series against an injured Mikan/Lakers, but less impressive given how the Royals looked against them in the next round. Beard/Groza both 1st Team All-NBA.

Bullets - Below average team on both sides, no chance to show anything in the POs. Rotated through a lot of players on the season, probably most impressed by Rocha who I see as a solid all around player, but not a ballot contender here. Rocha an Allstar.

Pistons - Led by their defense again, Schaus/Kerris/Foust is a big bad frontline. Rookie Foust looks like a lot worse offensive player than he'd become. Schaus leads a reasonably balanced offense. Take a game off the Royals, but get blown out in the other two games of the series (a bit of revenge for '50?). Schaus I could see being on my ballot, certainly a reasonable choice. Schaus/Foust Allstars.

Celtics - Red/Cousy/Macauley all arrive, turn it around for the Celtics, now a reasonably competitive team powered by their offense. I like Cousy more than most, but this particular season I'll go with Macauley as the main driver. In contention for POY and OPOY ballot spots. Macauley 1st Team All-NBA, Cousy an Allstar.

Knicks - The first of 3 years where a balanced Knicks squad looks decent in the RS, but really kicks it up in the playoffs. Go Lapchack. Offense first squad. Gallatin looks to do more outside of scoring than Boryla. Zaslofsky is the one that really steps up in the PO run (getting very close to a title). McGuire keeps everybody in line for the #2 offense. Clifton has arrived, but seems to take a back seat early. Will want to go through each of their PO series in more detail. McGuire 2nd Team All-NBA, Boryla/Gallatin also Allstars. I need to think more about Knicks candidates.

Nationals - A down year among a bunch of strong years. Still good, but less amongst the elite. Cervi stepping back from earlier seasons, Schayes seems to be doing most of the things they track in the box-score. Upset the Warriors, and then lose a very close series vs the Knicks in missing the finals. Still seem to have solid depth but missing secondary stars with Cervi aging out. Schayes 2nd Team All-NBA, and is the first guy to certainly be on my ballot.

Royals - The Champs. Best offense in the league again. Offense runs through Davies/Risen, even moreso in the playoffs. Coleman/Wanzer/Johnson do their jobs as highly efficient 3-5 guys. Exorcise some demons vs the Pistons/Lakers in the playoffs and then pull it out against the Knicks (believe it came down to Davies hitting a couple of late FTs). Davies 1st Team All-NBA and a lock for my ballot, Risen also a strong contender despite a lack of accolades, and arguably outplayed Davies over the PO run. (Forgot to mention this last thread, but I believe Risen was dealing with an injury issue of some sort in '50 that limited his offensive game).

Warriors - Added a ton of talent with Arizin/Phillip, team took a huge RS leap. Senesky the guard I like most from this early era for defense, could get onto my DPOY ballot. Arizin the contender for POY/OPOY. Team gets upset in the POs by the more experienced Nationals squad. From a very far distance to me it looks like a case of the old star (Fulks) getting too much leash when they should've turned it over to the young one (Arizin) and that problem amplifying in the playoffs. Fulks 2nd Team All-NBA, Arizin also an Allstar.

Lakers - The only season of the era they didn't bring it home, but the #1 RS team still. Mikan dominates the league statistically during the regular season. Pollard misses some time and seems to have a bit of a rough season generally. Mikkelsen a continued solid presence, but probably sub ballot for me. Upset by the Royals in the POs fairly convincingly and pushed by the Olympians prior, Mikan seems to notably struggle relative to his own ridiculous standard (by stats, team success and reports from the time), Mikkelsen/Pollard don't step enough to make up the difference. Mikan 1st Team All-NBA, Mikkelsen 2nd Team, Pollard an Allstar.

All-NBA picks relisted for ease of viewing.
1st Team:
Davies (Royals)
Beard (Olympians)
Groza (Olympians)
Macauley (Celtics)
Mikan (Lakers)

2nd Team:
McGuire (Knicks)
Brian (Blackhawks)
Fulks (Warriors)
Mikkelsen (Lakers)
Schayes (Nationals)
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#11 » by eminence » Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:24 pm

The list of guys I'm really considering (POY):
Groza
Macauley
Knicks players?
Schayes
Davies
Risen
Arizin
Mikan
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#12 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:29 pm

eminence wrote:Olympians - #8 by record, #9 by SRS, two first teamers. First teamers are banned and the team is a bit better next season - something is off here. Defense improved from last season, but the offense has fallen off a cliff. I'll have Groza in contention again this season, but no way I can see both stars in contention on this level of team. See Groza's season as a step down from his last season. Close PO series against an injured Mikan/Lakers, but less impressive given how the Royals looked against them in the next round. Beard/Groza both 1st Team All-NBA.


So I know this is something you've been itching to see more discussion on, and now is probably the time to do it.

Key anchor points for me:

1. The Olympians were made from scratch using the Kentucky Wildcat core - including the coach who wasn't Adolph Rupp but merely one of the players, and not one of the two big stars (Groza & Beard). Hence, whatever success the team had in their first year ('49-50), I don't think it makes sense to try to knock it as some kind of a system product that overrated its players. So when they do come right in and have a successful team season in their first year, to me that's utterly legit for '49-50 level play.

2. In '51-52, after the scandal breaks, the team is extremely different from what it had been before, including a new coach who probably was the most powerful person on the team. Schaeffer, it should be noted wasn't simply a member of the champion Lakers previously, but was the team captain and was known as the guy on the team - more so than coach Kundla - who would actually stand up to Mikan.

3. In '51-52, the offense doesn't actually improve relative to the league. The leap forward came on defense.

To me this paints a story of a collection of players who previously didn't focus on defense as much as they might have, and a new (legit) coach coming in and tightening up the ship.

But - that still doesn't explain why the Olympians went from an elite offense in their first year to a below average offense in their 2nd year when they still had all their Kentucky guys.

Possibilities?

1. The NBA got better, and specifically got more used to the Kentucky approach.
2. Some kind of injury or health thing.
3. The boys heard the footsteps of the law stalking them. While the Kentucky players didn't get arrested until just before the '51-52 season, the scandal itself really broke during the '50-51 season and these guys knew full well they had done the same stuff that others were being arrested for.

I won't claim to know the answer.

In terms of this project, it's hard to know what to do with Groza. Him volume scoring on obscene efficiency was the focal point of a) Kentucky's national championships in college, b) Team USA's Gold Medal, and c) the Olympians great offensive first season, so do we really have reason to say that he's some kind of "empty stats" guy? I'm not comfortable saying that.

Statistically, he continues to have a strong case for being OPOY this year on his own. Team-wise, he sure doesn't. How do we square this circle?

Not sure, but something I will point out is a dramatic shift in his teammates TS Add.

In '49-50, Groza had a +377.4 TS Add while his teammates had +9.5.
In '50-51, Groza had a +321.0 TS Add while his teammates had -427.0

Whatever happened to the team's offense, it would seem to have a lot to do with his teammates becoming less effective in the second year. Maybe they were the one's that all got worse. Maybe defenses realized that they could let Groza go off and still win if they just focused on stopping the rest of the guys.

On the last, this is of course something of a known basketball phenomenon. Mikan & Wilt both had issues where they themselves put up huge numbers and their teammates looked terrible. In the case of Mikan, they seemed to find a balance that worked well enough without totally changing Mikan's role, but "well enough" might be the key word there as unlike Wilt's Warriors, Mikan's Lakers didn't have to top Russell's Celtics to win titles.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#13 » by trex_8063 » Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:32 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:The most noteworthy thing about the actual basketball results this year is the Lakers losing. Mikan was injured while this happened, but how badly? When people talk about playing with a "broken leg" it brings up the image of a guy hobbling around with a full leg cast...which isn't how things ever are.


I'm sure it was more like Kevin McHale playing through the injury in the '87 playoffs.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#14 » by ZeppelinPage » Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:53 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:The most noteworthy thing about the actual basketball results this year is the Lakers losing. Mikan was injured while this happened, but how badly? When people talk about playing with a "broken leg" it brings up the image of a guy hobbling around with a full leg cast...which isn't how things ever are.


It was two stress fractures in his fibula. Not quite as dramatic as a broken leg, but still impactful!

Doctor MJ wrote:So I know this is something you've been itching to see more discussion on, and now is probably the time to do it.

Key anchor points for me:

1. The Olympians were made from scratch using the Kentucky Wildcat core - including the coach who wasn't Adolph Rupp but merely one of the players, and not one of the two big stars (Groza & Beard). Hence, whatever success the team had in their first year ('49-50), I don't think it makes sense to try to knock it as some kind of a system product that overrated its players. So when they do come right in and have a successful team season in their first year, to me that's utterly legit for '49-50 level play.

2. In '51-52, after the scandal breaks, the team is extremely different from what it had been before, including a new coach who probably was the most powerful person on the team. Schaeffer, it should be noted wasn't simply a member of the champion Lakers previously, but was the team captain and was known as the guy on the team - more so than coach Kundla - who would actually stand up to Mikan.

3. In '51-52, the offense doesn't actually improve relative to the league. The leap forward came on defense.

To me this paints a story of a collection of players who previously didn't focus on defense as much as they might have, and a new (legit) coach coming in and tightening up the ship.

But - that still doesn't explain why the Olympians went from an elite offense in their first year to a below average offense in their 2nd year when they still had all their Kentucky guys.

Possibilities?


The foremost authority on integration era basketball and earlier, Josh Elias (TringlePringle on Reddit), breaks it down here:

I think the defensive improvement was more down to a far more well-balanced roster than before, and their maintaining of a decent offensive output despite losing the two guys that carried them was the real schematic success. They were all out of whack as a team in '51 aside from Beard; teams figured out that it was really easy to make it hard on Groza simply by playing a heavy-handed back-to-the-basket offense that ran through the opposing center, he was too small to slow them down and took a lot of energy trying. Wah Wah Jones, who was just about as important to their first season as Beard, was forced out of position to SF when they drafted Lavoy, and then got a season-ending injury early in the year. Lavoy then proceeded to be shifted over to backup center when Groza needed a rest, which turned out to be a fair bit more than the previous year due to the way teams were playing him now. Meanwhile, Beard and Walther didn't really have any bench support and often combined to play around 85-90 minutes per game, with Walther still adjusting to the move from PG to SG. When Jones got hurt, Barnhorst came into the lineup in his place, but it wasn't much longer after that when Lavoy got the aforementioned move to the bench and in his place came Joe Holland, who at 6'4" 185 lbs should in no way have been starting at SF. Once Graboski joined, it was a relief because he was supposed to back up Groza at center and move Lavoy back over to PF, fortunately it turned out that, once Groza was banned, Graboski could handle a far greater minutes load on his own than Groza could, and Wah Wah was back healthy to give them a very strong three-man post rotation. Walther and Barnhorst were both great wing defenders , SI the defense was largely set at that point. Then it was down to Schaefer crafting an unselfish offense modeled after Murray Mendenhall's Anderson Packers a couple years prior (Mendenhall having been Schaefer's old high school coach, the influence was natural), which was pretty easy to implement now that they had no established stars. Add in Walther now getting to play more of a natural combo guard rather than than true off-guard he'd been expected to be next to Beard, and Barnhorst's versatility on both sides of the ball, and a good year was well within reach.


Murray Mendenhall strikes again. Also fair to note that by '52 Walther was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, on the level of Senesky/Seymour/Martin.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#15 » by eminence » Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:55 pm

I've generally seen it talked about as a 'fracture' with some sort of metal stabilizing plate taped to his foot/ankle?

(And is it next season that Schayes actually does play in a cast on his shooting arm?)
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#16 » by ZeppelinPage » Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:24 pm

eminence wrote:I've generally seen it talked about as a 'fracture' with some sort of metal stabilizing plate taped to his foot/ankle?

(And is it next season that Schayes actually does play in a cast on his shooting arm?)


Yeah, he played with a wrist fracture for six weeks after taking only six days off.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#17 » by ZeppelinPage » Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:54 pm

My train of thought:

The Sam Davis Memorial Award, the unofficial MVP award voted on by sportswriters, was given to George Mikan for this season.

Notable 1951 Offensive Players (Alphabetical):
Paul Arizin
Ralph Beard
Vince Boryla
Frankie Brian
Bob Cousy
Bob Davies
Harry Gallatin
Alex Groza
Ed Macauley
Dick McGuire
George Mikan
Andy Phillip
Arnie Risen
Dolph Schayes
Bobby Wanzer
Max Zaslofsky

Notable 1951 Defensive Players (Alphabetical):
Leo Barnhorst
Al Cervi
Bill Closs
Harry Gallatin
Arnie Johnson
Slater Martin
George Mikan
Vern Mikkelsen
Andy Phillip
Jim Pollard
Arnie Risen
Fred Scolari
George Senesky
Paul Seymour
Paul Walther

Player of the Year Shortlist (Alphabetical):
Paul Arizin
Bob Davies
Harry Gallatin
Ed Macauley
George Mikan
Andy Phillip
Arnie Risen
Dolph Schayes
Bobby Wanzer
Max Zaslofsky

Expect me to expand on each player within my shortlist when I actually vote.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#18 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Jul 13, 2024 7:12 am

Last season I felt like whoever I'd put at #4 and #5 would be on the weak side for a POY ballot and just one season later and there will likely be multiple guys I have to leave off despite them deserving a spot too.

Mikan was the clear MVP in the regular season and had a strong enough play-offs that he's the frontrunner once again, although not as much of a slamdunk as surrounding years.

Schayes probably has the most all round season here. Top 5-ish regular season and a pretty convincing post-season showing. He'll very likely be on my ballot but could honestly be anywhere from #2 to #5.

Next we get a grouping of Groza, Macauley and Arizin who were the main MVP contenders next to Mikan who then all had decent to good performances in first round post-season losses. Groza will probably make my ballot, while Macauley and Arizin I'm not entirely sure about at the moment.

The Royals are what makes things really tough this season. The Knicks had a strong team too but I don't think any of their guys did enough to crack the top 5 in a pretty deep year. Meanwhile there are arguments for 4 different Royals to make this list (Davies, Wanzer, Risen, Johnson). I might end up picking a couple of them but among this group I'm leaning most towards Risen at the moment.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#19 » by eminence » Sat Jul 13, 2024 11:48 am

I don’t get it with Wanzer/Johnson - these guys were distant 4th/5th guys on offense. When have 4th/5th options been their teams top impact guys on elite offenses no matter their efficiency?

Risen/Davies were at double their shot volume in the playoffs and are clearly the team MVPs in my view.


Johnson maybe if you bought he was a truly elite defender - but the film/team results aren’t there for me. His offensive skillset looks non existent on film, limited to open layups on cuts/putbacks when defenders help off him.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1950-51 

Post#20 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:32 pm

Going to kinda edit this one in as I go. Reserving the right to change some picks as discussion/reading continues [I'll alert you, AEnigma, if I do change anything]. Starting with some picks I'm pretty sure about; after that it gets hard.....

Player of the Year
1. George Mikan - Not much to explain here. He was "Mr. Basketball", the most singularly dominant player of his era; and even though he was injured in the playoffs and it may have cost them the title, I think he's still comfortably the best player for the year.
Led the league in scoring again by a big margin while being 3rd in TS Add (whopping +306.9, which is not far behind 1st place 321.0), 2nd in rpg, and also 19th in apg. Leads the league comfortably in WS, despite the lack of vital defensive stats (I suspect he's the most relevant shot-blocker/rim-protector in the league at this time), anchoring both sides of the ball (and the Lakers appear as the best defense in the league). Was still a high-efficiency 24 ppg in the playoffs, playing injured.

2. Arnie Risen - Very close. I can see a good case for about four different guys for #2. Going with Risen because he seems like the all-around (offense and defense, rs and playoffs all being considered) best player on the title winning team, and there isn't a super-clear case for anyone else over him. 16.3/12.0/2.4 @ +4.7% rTS [9th in the league] during the rs [for 3rd-best rs team]; then upped to 19.5/14.0/2.4 @ +2.9% rTS in the playoffs [leading the team in ppg and rpg en route to title], and an AWESOME 21.7/14.3/2.7 @ +3.7% rTS in the Finals (again, leading the team in ppg and rpg). See him as the #2 [if not close to 1B] on offense for this team that was the best offense in the league; possibly their most relevant defender, too. Marvelous season.

3. Dolph Schayes - Hard to place him, but this feels about right. 6th in the league in ppg while tied for 10th in TS% [10th in TS Add] and 1st [comfortably] in rpg, while also tied for 10th in apg.
In the playoffs, 20.4/14.6/2.9 @ +10.9% rTS, and came one game away from going to the Finals (losing the elimination game by 2 pts, in which he had 14 pts @ +5.9% rTS, 16 reb and 3 ast; the Nationals outscored the victorious Knicks in that Division Finals series, too). Overall in the Finals he'd averaged 20.2 ppg @ +10.7% rTS, 14.6 rpg, 2.8 apg. That's beastly. Could even see putting him at #2. Might switch later.

4. Alex Groza - Wicked scorer (as per below). Given was also 5th in the league in rpg, seems impossible to leave him off the ballot, given his scoring went bonkers in a brief playoff run too.

5. Ed Macauley - See below his offensive accumen. Went for 22/9/4 in the 2-game playoff sample, too.

Top HM: Arizin. There's been some speculation that maybe his defense [as a rookie] isn't so great; but then I note that the Warriors were the 2nd-best defense [in rs, anyway] with Arizin playing [maybe] more minutes than anyone. So maybe he's okay??? (which is consistent with later career reputation).
Meanwhile he's 5th in the league in ppg, 4th in TS% (4th in TS Add) and 8th in rpg. Not much of a playmaker; never was. But then INCREASED his ppg, rpg, and TS% (to a level that would be good by modern standards). Super-hard excluding him.


Offensive Player of the Year
1. George Mikan - Very narrow decision, as I feel all of the top 3 are super-close. Going this route gives him a clean sweep on my ballot. Leads the league in scoring by an enormous margin while also being 5th in TS% (3rd in TS Add, by a monstrous margin [damn near double] over 4th), while also 19th in apg, likely a relevant offensive rebounder (being 2nd in total rpg). All this for the team tied for 4th [of 11] on offense.

2. Alex Groza - Initially was going to give him 1st, but the Olympians lackluster team offensive rating creates just enough of a question mark that I bumped him to #2. He's 2nd [albeit distantly] in ppg while also maintaining the league-best TS% (with a mark that isn't bad even by semi-modern standards), and leading the league in TS Add. Not much more to say about his offense than that; at 5th in the league in total rebounds, there may be a relevant portion of offensive boards. And although the sample size is super-tiny, he went off as a scorer in the their short playoff run. If the Olympians had been even average on offense, I'd likely have gone with him for #1. As others have discussed, not sure what's going on here, with the rest of the team [collectively] being just atrocious in TS Add. Were they just terrible? Was he a ball-stopper (noteworthy that he doesn't appear to be much of a passer/playmaker based on apg)? Did defenses just figure out they were okay if they just shut everyone else down and let Groza get his?
idk, but again, it just lends a bit of a question mark wrt his offensive impact.

3. Ed Macauley - 3rd in the league in scoring, and only 0.1% behind Groza in TS% (making him 2nd [just ahead of Mikan] in TS Add). And impressive to me is that Macauley was also 12th in the league in apg. And he's doing this as the seeming anchor (or 1a/b at worst [with rookie Cousy]) of the 3rd-rated offense in the league. Given he's also 9th in the league in rebounds, there may be an offensive rebounding component to his impact as well. Can easily see his case for being higher than 3rd (even as high as 1st, honestly).

Top HM here is Bob Davies. If his shooting efficiency didn't drop to notably below league average in the playoffs, I'd likely have him 3rd (might switch anyway).


Defensive Player of the Year
1. George Mikan - Again, not much to explain. Big man anchoring the [seemingly] best defense in the league. Scant video shows a tremendous [for the time period] rim protector, who we know [for this year] was also 2nd in the league in rebounds (I agree with Doc that defensive rebounding is a huge aspect of defense in a league where FG% was so low).

2. Arnie Risen - The Royals defense doesn't look all that impressive in the rs, however looks absolutely stellar in the playoffs. With Risen averaging 12 boards in the rs [4th in league], and then 14 rpg in the playoffs (Mikan's injury muddies the water here).
Just not seeing another obvious candidate, though may switch this pick later.

3. Dolph Schayes - Simply giving him this on the assumption that he led the league in defensive rebounding (comfortable edge in total boards).
Could also consider Larry Foust or possibly someone from the Warriors team. Or perhaps someone like Slater Martin, as well.
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