Doc Rivers cost us Tim Duncan...

[T12]

f that guy

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[Optimus_Steel]

Why bring this up again?

[otownflava21]

Bro, a chick effed up first Tim Duncan coming to the magic, potentially costing us a title. And then a chick effed up Fran Vazquez coming to the magic, also potentially costing us a title.

[T12]

Why bring this up again?

for some reason i remember that David Robinson flew down to the islands and talked Duncan out of signing. this was new information for me.

[MoMM]

Nah, these rumors about the flight with wives, etc always existed. Now we just know it from an insider.

BTW, the part about David Robinson is true as well, so it's a sum of factors.

[cedric76]

Why bring this up again?

for some reason i remember that David Robinson flew down to the islands and talked Duncan out of signing. this was new information for me.

Old news

[basketballRob]

TMac would've been better off going to Chicago. I remember them throwing out the red carpet for him. I believe he went to the Cubs game and may have thrown out a pitch.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[JF5]

TMac would've been better off going to Chicago. I remember them throwing out the red carpet for him. I believe he went to the Cubs game and may have thrown out a pitch.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

This is an interesting conversation... I don't think McGrady would've turned into the Superstar he was in Orlando if he went to the Bulls. That organization was dysfunctional after the Jordan Era and didn't have the vet presence and the coaching staff that Orlando had during the time.

I think McGrady mightve ended up more like or more known as a Baron Davis or Paul Pierce type player in Chicago rather than a premier type guard being compared to his peers like Kobe, Iverson, and Carter.

But its just my theory.

[Rainwater]

Old News lol

[cedric76]

TMac would've been better off going to Chicago. I remember them throwing out the red carpet for him. I believe he went to the Cubs game and may have thrown out a pitch.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

This is an interesting conversation... I don't think McGrady would've turned into the Superstar he was in Orlando if he went to the Bulls. That organization was dysfunctional after the Jordan Era and didn't have the vet presence and the coaching staff that Orlando had during the time.

I think McGrady mightve ended up more like or more known as a Baron Davis or Paul Pierce type player in Chicago rather than a premier type guard being compared to his peers like Kobe, Iverson, and Carter.

But its just my theory.

Yeah, I remember how Chicago greeted him, it was insane

[AdamTheGreek]

It still had more to do with Popovich and Robinson than anything else.

[damo[23]]

It still had more to do with Popovich and Robinson than anything else.

Yup. Its nice to blame something as simple as "we didnt let his GF on the plane" - but in reality Drob and Pop made a big case for their culture and what they could do.

Its obviously super fustrating because at the time it felt we were so close to getting 2 players that (we didnt realize how Grant Hill would get on at the time ...) would probably be all timers, and the chance at one guy that could be (and was, in Tmac).

Truth be told, I just think the mismanagement of Grant Hill and his recovery was such a damning issue from that era. I think we as an org rushed him back more than once if memory serves.

[richi_v25]

I'm more upset we had Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace on the team, imagine those 2 with T-mac plus Mike Miller.

[bigdogdylan5]

I'm more upset we had Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace on the team, imagine those 2 with T-mac plus Mike Miller.

This is by far the most interesting what if… obviously the Duncan stuff gets the headlines but the airplane stuff was always a little overblown. I am sure it wasn’t a good look but as Calipari told Doc you lost him the minute he even flew back to SA without the deal signed.

Going back to Billups and Wallace. The details may matter here like did we have to trade Wallace to get Hill? I don’t think we had to depends on if we were only getting him if we got bigger raises and more years. Hill was basically the hottest thing at the time. He was on track to be an easy top 50 basketball player all time. No GM in there right mind having an extremely raw short Ben Wallace not give him up for Hill. But again did it have to happen? Also devils advocate with Billups is a lot of teams dumped him. Was a high lottery guy who just needed some patience and it paid off for Detroit. It’s clear though Gabriel was not the best evaluator and projector of young talent.

[AdamTheGreek]

I'm more upset we had Chauncey Billups and Ben Wallace on the team, imagine those 2 with T-mac plus Mike Miller.

This is by far the most interesting what if… obviously the Duncan stuff gets the headlines but the airplane stuff was always a little overblown. I am sure it wasn’t a good look but as Calipari told Doc you lost him the minute he even flew back to SA without the deal signed.

Going back to Billups and Wallace. The details may matter here like did we have to trade Wallace to get Hill? I don’t think we had to depends on if we were only getting him if we got bigger raises and more years. Hill was basically the hottest thing at the time. He was on track to be an easy top 50 basketball player all time. No GM in there right mind having an extremely raw short Ben Wallace not give him up for Hill. But again did it have to happen? Also devils advocate with Billups is a lot of teams dumped him. Was a high lottery guy who just needed some patience and it paid off for Detroit. It’s clear though Gabriel was not the best evaluator and projector of young talent.

We had an abnormally large amount of players in that ‘99-‘00 training camp. So it made it even tougher to evaluate a guy like Billups (who I believe suffered an injury at the time).

With Wallace, I’m still unsure if Ben had to be involved in the G-Hill trade or not. Some folks say yes, others say it had to be either Bo or Ben. Bo was going to be the one more likely to stay around in that situation because of tenure and what he meant to the locker room (Darrell and Bo were the captains).

Gabriel had a plan, be the first to ever pull off a cap flexibility/salary tanking job where we would probably end up with a top-3 draft pick, and have the room to sign 2 max free agent signings.
Sports Illustrated literally predicted we’d win 10 games that season. Instead we go 41-41 with a first-year head coach in Doc, a few young guys, and some castoffs.
The tradeoff of not having a high draft pick was we could trade our way into signing 3 max free agents instead of just two.
Look at all of the transactions:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2000_transactions.html
I still maintain that even though we were 21-26 when it happened, that we make the playoffs if we don’t trade away Gatling and Abdul-Wahad for Mercer.

[magicsanta]

TMac would've been better off going to Chicago. I remember them throwing out the red carpet for him. I believe he went to the Cubs game and may have thrown out a pitch.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

This is an interesting conversation... I don't think McGrady would've turned into the Superstar he was in Orlando if he went to the Bulls. That organization was dysfunctional after the Jordan Era and didn't have the vet presence and the coaching staff that Orlando had during the time.

I think McGrady mightve ended up more like or more known as a Baron Davis or Paul Pierce type player in Chicago rather than a premier type guard being compared to his peers like Kobe, Iverson, and Carter.

But its just my theory.

He wishes he’d be comparable to Pierce

[UCFJayBird]

Just a reminder to the fans that have been here a number of years, just because it's old news to you doesn't mean it's old news to the newer and/or younger posters, lol. Topics will be revisited and wounds will be reopened. Just roll with it

[JF5]

TMac would've been better off going to Chicago. I remember them throwing out the red carpet for him. I believe he went to the Cubs game and may have thrown out a pitch.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

This is an interesting conversation... I don't think McGrady would've turned into the Superstar he was in Orlando if he went to the Bulls. That organization was dysfunctional after the Jordan Era and didn't have the vet presence and the coaching staff that Orlando had during the time.

I think McGrady mightve ended up more like or more known as a Baron Davis or Paul Pierce type player in Chicago rather than a premier type guard being compared to his peers like Kobe, Iverson, and Carter.

But its just my theory.

He wishes he’d be comparable to Pierce

McGrady at his peak was arguably a top 5 player in the NBA. There was a time where people argued who was the the better player between him and Kobe Bryant in mainstream NBA media.

Pierce was a 2nd/3rd tier guy during that time. You can even look at the accolades between 00-04. Pierce really only has the longevity factor in this argument.

Tracy McGrady - 2-Time 2nd Team All-Nba in 01 and 04, and 2-Time 1st Team All-Nba in 02 and 03.

Paul Pierce - 2-Time 3rd Team All-Nba in 02 and 03.

[Rainwater]

TMac would've been better off going to Chicago. I remember them throwing out the red carpet for him. I believe he went to the Cubs game and may have thrown out a pitch.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

This is an interesting conversation... I don't think McGrady would've turned into the Superstar he was in Orlando if he went to the Bulls. That organization was dysfunctional after the Jordan Era and didn't have the vet presence and the coaching staff that Orlando had during the time.

I think McGrady mightve ended up more like or more known as a Baron Davis or Paul Pierce type player in Chicago rather than a premier type guard being compared to his peers like Kobe, Iverson, and Carter.

But its just my theory.

He wishes he’d be comparable to Pierce

Paul was never as good as T-Mac. Paul is lucky that KG and Allen saved him and won a title or people would barely remember him.

[pepe1991]

This is an interesting conversation... I don't think McGrady would've turned into the Superstar he was in Orlando if he went to the Bulls. That organization was dysfunctional after the Jordan Era and didn't have the vet presence and the coaching staff that Orlando had during the time.

I think McGrady mightve ended up more like or more known as a Baron Davis or Paul Pierce type player in Chicago rather than a premier type guard being compared to his peers like Kobe, Iverson, and Carter.

But its just my theory.

He wishes he’d be comparable to Pierce

Paul was never as good as T-Mac. Paul is lucky that KG and Allen saved him and won a title or people would barely remember him.

Hot take alert ?



Career vise, durability, team accomplishments, playoffs, Pierce smokes him in everything.
Tracy had better peak, but that peak was pretty much stat padding on fringe playoff teams or him ( and Yao ) getting hurt or losing to teams that weren't all that better than them.

His MVP contending seasons were on 44-38 and 42-40 teams.

Not to mention Pierce won more playoff games by age of 25 than Tracy in his entire career. You said KG & Allen saved him, but you forgetting that he won multiple playoff series BEFORE Celtics old-big 3. And you are also forgetting Paul Pierce was leading scorer in nba finals in 2008, 2# in assits ( 0,2 behind Rondo), 3rd in rebounds and after all- he was finals MVP.


Tracy career record: 18-31
Pierce playoff record 87-83



Problem with Tracy is that his prime was early, that he pretty much fell apart later in his career and simply he never did jack ***t in playoffs. IF Spurs didn't picked him up to sit on their bench, he would have 0 playoff series won, not like he even played on Spurs, for majority of that 2013 playoffs he was dressed up for wedding.
Where on other side, 37 years old Pierce, still menaged to be big part of roster (Wizards) that menaged to pass first round. Did the same with Nets year earlier,at age of 36.
Where Tracy wasn't great until 2001- and his career pretty much ended in 2008. And even during that 7 peak years, he was hurt often.

Tracy had incredible potential and talent. He probably is one of most talented players to ever play basketball
But due multiple factors ( injuries, body falling apart, teammates getting hurt, playing with trash etc) he never really do much ( or anything) with it, other than padded crazy stats for first round exists. Year after year.

And again, if you look company he was compared to ( Allen, Pierce, Kobe, Iverson ,Carter ) etc, all those guys at some point of their prime menaged to carry team somwhere on their own. Everybody but Tracy.
Carter passed first round with Toronto on team with 0 allstars, only him and Antonio Davis averaged points in double digits.
Iverson carried that sorry 76ers team to finals.
Allen went to ECF in 2001.
Pierce carried Boston to ECF in 2002.

I don't know how old you are, and do you remember 2002 playoffs, but Magic were favorites to win.
Hornets at time leading scorer, and probably best player Jamal Mashburn got hurt and didn't play at all.
But despite that, best player on the floor still isn't Tracy, it's Baron Davis with near triple double in series .
I don't really hold 2001 ( Bucks & Allen ) and especially not 2003 losses on him, despite his infamous interview and fact they blew up 3-1 lead right after.

Again, talent vise, Tracy smokes vast majority or 00s allstars and superstars, he actually might be one of top 5 most talented players ever.
But his teams, no matter who they were ( Magic, Rockets , Nets) pretty much never go anything from him in terms of sucess. And he, himself, is one of biggest underachivers given talent. You can put him in that Alex English category where player has sick numbers, but you watch standings, playoff record and ask yourself: W.T.F.