Butler to Nuggets w/NOLA

[jredsaz]

Denver receives Jimmy Butler
Heat receive Brandon Ingram, Zeke Naji, Vet Min (DEN), DEN 1st
Pelicans receive Michael Porter Jr., Vet Min (DEN)

Denver one again becomes the pre-season co-title favorite and rebounds from a lack luster summer.

Heat begin a reset. Ingram puts them in essentially the same situation as Butler except Ingram is 8 years younger and they gain a first. Heat aren’t even top 15 favorites for a title with Jimmy and they will need to make a decision about resigning either player next summer.

Pelicans don’t get a center but they pivot off Ingram to a better fit. MPJ is one of the best catch and shoot guys in the NBA and compliments the roster significantly better than Ingram. Plus he is locked in to a flexible contract that NOP is probably willing to pay.

[louc1970]

I think the Pels should get the pick.

[BBallFreak]

I think the Pels should get the pick.

Probably right, and they still say no imo. I don't see MPJ as a great return or a good value.

But also, if I'm Miami I'm not doing this without the pick as I see Ingram as a substantial downgrade.

[jredsaz]

I think the Pels should get the pick.

Probably right, and they still say no imo. I don't see MPJ as a great return or a good value.

But also, if I'm Miami I'm not doing this without the pick as I see Ingram as a substantial downgrade.

What kind of value does Ingram have on his contract and Jimmy have on his contract considering his age? MPJ fits the NOLA roster so much better and is locked into a very palatable contract - the best of the three.

[Hoops23]

I dont think a late FRP is worth downgrading from Butler to Ingram.

At least Butler gave the Heat 3 conference finals and 2 finals appearance. What is Ingram contribution with NOP aside from his injuries??

[louc1970]

I dont think a late FRP is worth downgrading from Butler to Ingram.

At least Butler gave the Heat 3 conference finals and 2 finals appearance. What is Ingram contribution with NOP aside from his injuries??

Makes sense. I see it differently than maybe the team does.
I take Ingram then at the end of the year, can let him go and drop the team salary to near the $150m mark. Or I can S&T Ingram for role pieces as I expect Ware, Adebayo, Herro, Jaquez to lead the next iteration of the Heat. Role players or a young star could be needed (possible Garland for Ingram at that point).
The cost savings is advantageous.
I don’t see Miami letting Butler go for peanuts.

[BBallFreak]

I dont think a late FRP is worth downgrading from Butler to Ingram.

At least Butler gave the Heat 3 conference finals and 2 finals appearance. What is Ingram contribution with NOP aside from his injuries??

Makes sense. I see it differently than maybe the team does.
I take Ingram then at the end of the year, can let him go and drop the team salary to near the $150m mark. Or I can S&T Ingram for role pieces as I expect Ware, Adebayo, Herro, Jaquez to lead the next iteration of the Heat. Role players or a young star could be needed (possible Garland for Ingram at that point).
The cost savings is advantageous.
I don’t see Miami letting Butler go for peanuts.

Then why are we doing this? Wouldn't we just make the trade we want now rather than hoping Ingram stays healthy enough to give us decent value?

[louc1970]

I dont think a late FRP is worth downgrading from Butler to Ingram.

At least Butler gave the Heat 3 conference finals and 2 finals appearance. What is Ingram contribution with NOP aside from his injuries??

Makes sense. I see it differently than maybe the team does.
I take Ingram then at the end of the year, can let him go and drop the team salary to near the $150m mark. Or I can S&T Ingram for role pieces as I expect Ware, Adebayo, Herro, Jaquez to lead the next iteration of the Heat. Role players or a young star could be needed (possible Garland for Ingram at that point).
The cost savings is advantageous.
I don’t see Miami letting Butler go for peanuts.

Then why are we doing this? Wouldn't we just make the trade we want now rather than hoping Ingram stays healthy enough to give us decent value?

It is also possible Ingram is the player needed on the team (what Butler used to be - anything is possible). I left that part out.
I don't think a Garland is available at the moment - if that is who is wanted.
What trade do you want now?

[louc1970]

I dont think a late FRP is worth downgrading from Butler to Ingram.

At least Butler gave the Heat 3 conference finals and 2 finals appearance. What is Ingram contribution with NOP aside from his injuries??

I don't think Butler is going to be able to give 3 more CFs in the future. Nor do I think Ingram is the key factor in making 3 conference finals (but probably more likely than Butler due to age).

I would cut NOP out of the deal.
Miami trades (35 y.o) Butler
Denver trades MPJ, Nnaji and Hall.
Not sure why I like Hall, but he just seems like a backup center that has longevity in this league. [Saying this means he will get cut at the end of Summer League].

[BBallFreak]

Makes sense. I see it differently than maybe the team does.
I take Ingram then at the end of the year, can let him go and drop the team salary to near the $150m mark. Or I can S&T Ingram for role pieces as I expect Ware, Adebayo, Herro, Jaquez to lead the next iteration of the Heat. Role players or a young star could be needed (possible Garland for Ingram at that point).
The cost savings is advantageous.
I don’t see Miami letting Butler go for peanuts.

Then why are we doing this? Wouldn't we just make the trade we want now rather than hoping Ingram stays healthy enough to give us decent value?

It is also possible Ingram is the player needed on the team (what Butler used to be - anything is possible). I left that part out.
I don't think a Garland is available at the moment - if that is who is wanted.
What trade do you want now?

What I want doesn't matter. I want a rebuilding package but we're not doing that. What Riley wants is to trade tertiary players and assets for a star player, but that's not happening at the moment.

[LightTheBeam]

I see MPJ as a far better fit next to Zion. Problem is it doesn't address the front court. I'd love this for them if they could turn CJ into a center even Ayton.

Dejounte/Alvarado
Herb/Hawkins
MPJ/Murphy
Zion/
Ayton/Missi

Heat never like to rebuild fully. And If there's a coach who could push Ingram to the next level its spo. He's still only 26.

As for Denver, I mean the fit is really bad, but Jimmy is so much better that you probably find a way to make it work. But he's not ideal next to Jokic/Gordon front court imo.

[BBallFreak]

Heat never like to rebuild fully. And If there's a coach who could push Ingram to the next level its spo. He's still only 26.

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

[LightTheBeam]

Heat never like to rebuild fully. And If there's a coach who could push Ingram to the next level its spo. He's still only 26.

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

I'm with you. It's one of my biggest knocks on Ingram as well. But over the past 5 years (since Jimmy got to Miami) he's played 291 regular season games, Ingram has played 287. Not a huge difference.

Pelicans have been bad 4/5 of those years. My hope/thought would be playing on a team that's consistently in the playoff mix he might play 10% more games. It's a risky investment, but like I said when healthy I think Spo could unleash another level of his game.

[BBallFreak]

Heat never like to rebuild fully. And If there's a coach who could push Ingram to the next level its spo. He's still only 26.

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

I'm with you. It's one of my biggest knocks on Ingram as well. But over the past 5 years (since Jimmy got to Miami) he's played 291 regular season games, Ingram has played 287. Not a huge difference.

Pelicans have been bad 4/5 of those years. My hope/thought would be playing on a team that's consistently in the playoff mix he might play 10% more games. It's a risky investment, but like I said when healthy I think Spo could unleash another level of his game.

Jimmy is the main reason we're in the hunt every year. You've got us dealing him for a lesser player who hasn't shown he can do what Jimmy has done in the playoffs. And I wonder if that games played number includes playoffs? I doubt it. Jimmy's played significantly more. Yes, Ingram is younger, but what good is his youth if it doesn't turn into more games played?

[LightTheBeam]

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

I'm with you. It's one of my biggest knocks on Ingram as well. But over the past 5 years (since Jimmy got to Miami) he's played 291 regular season games, Ingram has played 287. Not a huge difference.

Pelicans have been bad 4/5 of those years. My hope/thought would be playing on a team that's consistently in the playoff mix he might play 10% more games. It's a risky investment, but like I said when healthy I think Spo could unleash another level of his game.

Jimmy is the main reason we're in the hunt every year. You've got us dealing him for a lesser player who hasn't shown he can do what Jimmy has done in the playoffs. And I wonder if that games played number includes playoffs? I doubt it. Jimmy's played significantly more. Yes, Ingram is younger, but what good is his youth if it doesn't turn into more games played?

I have no horse in this race. Jimmy Butler is 35 years old and on the decline himself.

Last year regular season
60 games with Jimmy Butler - 33-27 = 55% win rate
22 Games without Jimmy Butler - 13-9 - 59% win rate

I by no means am saying Miami is better without Jimmy, my point here is that Miami is more than any individual player. They have the best coach in the league by a mile and tons of good players who step up when it matters. Sure you can ride Butler until the wheels fall off, I certainly wouldn't blame you. You guys are a year removed from making the finals. I just think the east has gotten significantly better at the top and chances that happens again is minimal. Miami has been trying to add a star to the Jimmy/Bam core for a few years and it hasn't worked out, I'm just not sure how much longer than window will be open with a 35 year old Jimmy.

And again, Jimmy is one of my favorite players in the NBA. I'm not saying this is a homerun for Miami. Simply saying I would understand it and I'd trust Spo to make it work.

[jredsaz]

Then why are we doing this? Wouldn't we just make the trade we want now rather than hoping Ingram stays healthy enough to give us decent value?

It is also possible Ingram is the player needed on the team (what Butler used to be - anything is possible). I left that part out.
I don't think a Garland is available at the moment - if that is who is wanted.
What trade do you want now?

What I want doesn't matter. I want a rebuilding package but we're not doing that. What Riley wants is to trade tertiary players and assets for a star player, but that's not happening at the moment.

I mean this is a legit reset package. Heat have another first to trade and they land a 27 year old all star wing to replace Butler. Adding that first to their other draft capital and some combination of Herro, Rozier, Robinson could land an upgrade somewhere else.

Moreover, isn’t the last thing missing from Ingrams game is a little Heat me culture? If he doesn’t buy in this season the Heat aren’t locked in and in basically the same position.

[jredsaz]

I see MPJ as a far better fit next to Zion. Problem is it doesn't address the front court. I'd love this for them if they could turn CJ into a center even Ayton.

Dejounte/Alvarado
Herb/Hawkins
MPJ/Murphy
Zion/
Ayton/Missi

Heat never like to rebuild fully. And If there's a coach who could push Ingram to the next level its spo. He's still only 26.

As for Denver, I mean the fit is really bad, but Jimmy is so much better that you probably find a way to make it work. But he's not ideal next to Jokic/Gordon front court imo.

That’s what I thought. Probably means you move to flipping CJ for a center and other pieces.

[jredsaz]

Heat never like to rebuild fully. And If there's a coach who could push Ingram to the next level its spo. He's still only 26.

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

It’s a contract year. That works for Butler and Ingram.

[jredsaz]

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

I'm with you. It's one of my biggest knocks on Ingram as well. But over the past 5 years (since Jimmy got to Miami) he's played 291 regular season games, Ingram has played 287. Not a huge difference.

Pelicans have been bad 4/5 of those years. My hope/thought would be playing on a team that's consistently in the playoff mix he might play 10% more games. It's a risky investment, but like I said when healthy I think Spo could unleash another level of his game.

Jimmy is the main reason we're in the hunt every year. You've got us dealing him for a lesser player who hasn't shown he can do what Jimmy has done in the playoffs. And I wonder if that games played number includes playoffs? I doubt it. Jimmy's played significantly more. Yes, Ingram is younger, but what good is his youth if it doesn't turn into more games played?

You were in the hunt in a lesser East. The top isn’t what it used to be and Jimmy is that many years older.

[louc1970]

Then why are we doing this? Wouldn't we just make the trade we want now rather than hoping Ingram stays healthy enough to give us decent value?

It is also possible Ingram is the player needed on the team (what Butler used to be - anything is possible). I left that part out.
I don't think a Garland is available at the moment - if that is who is wanted.
What trade do you want now?

What I want doesn't matter. I want a rebuilding package but we're not doing that. What Riley wants is to trade tertiary players and assets for a star player, but that's not happening at the moment.

Reread your previous statement. You say @why wouldn’t we trade for what we want now?@
What is it that is wanted now?