Butler to Nuggets w/NOLA

[louc1970]

Heat never like to rebuild fully. And If there's a coach who could push Ingram to the next level its spo. He's still only 26.

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

It’s a contract year. That works for Butler and Ingram.

If it was a short playoff series, I want Butler all day long. But if this about a 3 year contract, I am taking Ingram.

I see little value in Butler as a 38 SF.

Credit Butler for what he has done.

[jredsaz]

How do you push someone who can't stay on the court?

It’s a contract year. That works for Butler and Ingram.

If it was a short playoff series, I want Butler all day long. But if this about a 3 year contract, I am taking Ingram.

I see little value in Butler as a 38 SF.

Credit Butler for what he has done.

My point was is that it’s a contract year for both of them. Jimmy's ceiling will probably be higher but Ingram in Heat culture plus a contract year could bring the best out of him.

[louc1970]

It’s a contract year. That works for Butler and Ingram.

If it was a short playoff series, I want Butler all day long. But if this about a 3 year contract, I am taking Ingram.

I see little value in Butler as a 38 SF.

Credit Butler for what he has done.

My point was is that it’s a contract year for both of them. Jimmy's ceiling will probably be higher but Ingram in Heat culture plus a contract year could bring the best out of him.

Agreed. On the Heat Ingram would be required to focus on team vs individual.
On the Pels, he appears to know he is there to score especially given you never know if Williamson is going to be healthy.

[BBallFreak]

It is also possible Ingram is the player needed on the team (what Butler used to be - anything is possible). I left that part out.
I don't think a Garland is available at the moment - if that is who is wanted.
What trade do you want now?

What I want doesn't matter. I want a rebuilding package but we're not doing that. What Riley wants is to trade tertiary players and assets for a star player, but that's not happening at the moment.

Reread your previous statement. You say @why wouldn’t we trade for what we want now?@
What is it that is wanted now?

That's you missing the point, isn't it? It wasn't me who suggested flipping Ingram later on, that was you. I just pointed out that we're not likely to take that path.

Again, what I want isn't the point. We know what Riley wants. He wants a motivated Jimmy, Bam, and a third star.

My point is, we're not trading Jimmy unless this thing falls completely off the rails and he's playing well.

[louc1970]

What I want doesn't matter. I want a rebuilding package but we're not doing that. What Riley wants is to trade tertiary players and assets for a star player, but that's not happening at the moment.

Reread your previous statement. You say @why wouldn’t we trade for what we want now?@
What is it that is wanted now?

That's you missing the point, isn't it? It wasn't me who suggested flipping Ingram later on, that was you. I just pointed out that we're not likely to take that path.

Again, what I want isn't the point. We know what Riley wants. He wants a motivated Jimmy, Bam, and a third star.

My point is, we're not trading Jimmy unless this thing falls completely off the rails and he's playing well.

Not at all. That is you saying something and having no idea what you really want to say.

Why don’t we just trade for what we want? But you don’t know what you want. So … how do you do that?

[BBallFreak]

Reread your previous statement. You say @why wouldn’t we trade for what we want now?@
What is it that is wanted now?

That's you missing the point, isn't it? It wasn't me who suggested flipping Ingram later on, that was you. I just pointed out that we're not likely to take that path.

Again, what I want isn't the point. We know what Riley wants. He wants a motivated Jimmy, Bam, and a third star.

My point is, we're not trading Jimmy unless this thing falls completely off the rails and he's playing well.

Not at all. That is you saying something and having no idea what you really want to say.

Why don’t we just trade for what we want? But you don’t know what you want. So … how do you do that?

You're not actually listening to me, are you?

The front office doesn't want to trade Jimmy.

In other words, we're not trading Jimmy. You know what we'd want in exchange for Ingram? JIMMY!

I don't know how many times I need to say that we don't want to trade Jimmy, we want to add to Jimmy and Bam. The entire premise is wrong and that's what I'm pointing out.

It doesn't matter that I want to trade Jimmy for a rebuilding package. It matters that the front office wants to add to Jimmy and Bam.

[nomansland]

Denver doesn't need to make this move, and it wouldn't be a good idea. They need assets and future players more than anyone. Trading all of that for an aging Butler would be a terrible idea irrespective of the desire to move Nnaji's bad deal.

[louc1970]

That's you missing the point, isn't it? It wasn't me who suggested flipping Ingram later on, that was you. I just pointed out that we're not likely to take that path.

Again, what I want isn't the point. We know what Riley wants. He wants a motivated Jimmy, Bam, and a third star.

My point is, we're not trading Jimmy unless this thing falls completely off the rails and he's playing well.

Not at all. That is you saying something and having no idea what you really want to say.

Why don’t we just trade for what we want? But you don’t know what you want. So … how do you do that?

You're not actually listening to me, are you?

The front office doesn't want to trade Jimmy.

In other words, we're not trading Jimmy. You know what we'd want in exchange for Ingram? JIMMY!

I don't know how many times I need to say that we don't want to trade Jimmy, we want to add to Jimmy and Bam. The entire premise is wrong and that's what I'm pointing out.

It doesn't matter that I want to trade Jimmy for a rebuilding package. It matters that the front office wants to add to Jimmy and Bam.

Nope. Because you say one thing and expect readers to think you mean something else.
If you say "why don't we trade for who we want", that means you want to trade for someone else. You can't comeback with "well what i meant was".

[165bows]

I think the Pels should get the pick.

Probably right, and they still say no imo. I don't see MPJ as a great return or a good value.

But also, if I'm Miami I'm not doing this without the pick as I see Ingram as a substantial downgrade.

I actually agree with this one here - Butler would be an amazing get for Denver but hard to see the path to get there.

Seems like Miami might want the cap space over Ingram to get someone more valuable for that money. Idk maybe as a stop gap.

[BBallFreak]

Not at all. That is you saying something and having no idea what you really want to say.

Why don’t we just trade for what we want? But you don’t know what you want. So … how do you do that?

You're not actually listening to me, are you?

The front office doesn't want to trade Jimmy.

In other words, we're not trading Jimmy. You know what we'd want in exchange for Ingram? JIMMY!

I don't know how many times I need to say that we don't want to trade Jimmy, we want to add to Jimmy and Bam. The entire premise is wrong and that's what I'm pointing out.

It doesn't matter that I want to trade Jimmy for a rebuilding package. It matters that the front office wants to add to Jimmy and Bam.

Nope. Because you say one thing and expect readers to think you mean something else.
If you say "why don't we trade for who we want", that means you want to trade for someone else. You can't comeback with "well what i meant was".

You're the one who suggested flipping Ingram for something else later on.

This is like banging my head against a brick wall.

I wouldn't trade for Ingram as I don't see him as a piece to build around. I'd trade Jimmy for a rebuilding package. The front office clearly prefers to keep Jimmy and augment the core.

[louc1970]

You're not actually listening to me, are you?

The front office doesn't want to trade Jimmy.

In other words, we're not trading Jimmy. You know what we'd want in exchange for Ingram? JIMMY!

I don't know how many times I need to say that we don't want to trade Jimmy, we want to add to Jimmy and Bam. The entire premise is wrong and that's what I'm pointing out.

It doesn't matter that I want to trade Jimmy for a rebuilding package. It matters that the front office wants to add to Jimmy and Bam.

Nope. Because you say one thing and expect readers to think you mean something else.
If you say "why don't we trade for who we want", that means you want to trade for someone else. You can't comeback with "well what i meant was".

You're the one who suggested flipping Ingram for something else later on.

This is like banging my head against a brick wall.

I wouldn't trade for Ingram as I don't see him as a piece to build around. I'd trade Jimmy for a rebuilding package. The front office clearly prefers to keep Jimmy and augment the core.

I will make this easier for you. I certainly do not want any walls being hurt.

[jredsaz]

Denver doesn't need to make this move, and it wouldn't be a good idea. They need assets and future players more than anyone. Trading all of that for an aging Butler would be a terrible idea irrespective of the desire to move Nnaji's bad deal.

I don’t think the Nuggets are giving up all that much for the kind of impact on winning Butler will bring for the next season or two. If he is healthy, he gets them further than MPJ.

[winforlose]

MPJ has back issues, doesn’t play great defense, is on a very expensive contract, and has Joker and Murray propping him up (anyone looks good playing beside them.) Overall I see MPJ as far less valuable on a team without elite top talent.

[nomansland]

Denver doesn't need to make this move, and it wouldn't be a good idea. They need assets and future players more than anyone. Trading all of that for an aging Butler would be a terrible idea irrespective of the desire to move Nnaji's bad deal.

I don’t think the Nuggets are giving up all that much for the kind of impact on winning Butler will bring for the next season or two. If he is healthy, he gets them further than MPJ.

He regularly misses 15-25 games a year and was spent in the playoffs against Denver 2 years ago. You have to wonder how much gas is left in that tank even when he's healthy.

[jredsaz]

Denver doesn't need to make this move, and it wouldn't be a good idea. They need assets and future players more than anyone. Trading all of that for an aging Butler would be a terrible idea irrespective of the desire to move Nnaji's bad deal.

I don’t think the Nuggets are giving up all that much for the kind of impact on winning Butler will bring for the next season or two. If he is healthy, he gets them further than MPJ.

He regularly misses 15-25 games a year and was spent in the playoffs against Denver 2 years ago. You have to wonder how much gas is left in that tank even when he's healthy.

This isn’t a great argument against the trade. MOJ is also an injury risk. Butler has had to carry the offensive load for the Heat in the playoffs. The run he had in ‘22 was incredible. His role in Denver next to Jokic and Murray would be very different.

[jredsaz]

MPJ has back issues, doesn’t play great defense, is on a very expensive contract, and has Joker and Murray propping him up (anyone looks good playing beside them.) Overall I see MPJ as far less valuable on a team without elite top talent.

Isn’t Zion elite talent? The Pels are really talented across their roster. Defense everywhere. They need shooters like Porter Jr. His contract isn’t fully guaranteed in the third year making the deal pretty decent. They get three years of control but can change direction rather quickly if need be. Think he is a good fit.

[winforlose]

MPJ has back issues, doesn’t play great defense, is on a very expensive contract, and has Joker and Murray propping him up (anyone looks good playing beside them.) Overall I see MPJ as far less valuable on a team without elite top talent.

Isn’t Zion elite talent? The Pels are really talented across their roster. Defense everywhere. They need shooters like Porter Jr. His contract isn’t fully guaranteed in the third year making the deal pretty decent. They get three years of control but can change direction rather quickly if need be. Think he is a good fit.

When I say elite I mean top 15 all NBA level talent. Zion when healthy is probably somewhere between 30-50 if that. Pels would not improve on defense switching BI for MPJ, and I doubt they improve on offense. The only reason to make this trade is to save money, and frankly I don’t see Denver wanting to give a max to BI next year.

[jredsaz]

MPJ has back issues, doesn’t play great defense, is on a very expensive contract, and has Joker and Murray propping him up (anyone looks good playing beside them.) Overall I see MPJ as far less valuable on a team without elite top talent.

Isn’t Zion elite talent? The Pels are really talented across their roster. Defense everywhere. They need shooters like Porter Jr. His contract isn’t fully guaranteed in the third year making the deal pretty decent. They get three years of control but can change direction rather quickly if need be. Think he is a good fit.

When I say elite I mean top 15 all NBA level talent. Zion when healthy is probably somewhere between 30-50 if that. Pels would not improve on defense switching BI for MPJ, and I doubt they improve on offense. The only reason to make this trade is to save money, and frankly I don’t see Denver wanting to give a max to BI next year.

The OP doesn’t have Ingram going to Denver and peak Zion is better than that. It’s a wash on defense and better spacing on offense. MPJ is a catch and shoot monster. Ingram is significantly more ball dominant. I’m not sure how the on the court for isn’t better offensively.

[winforlose]

Isn’t Zion elite talent? The Pels are really talented across their roster. Defense everywhere. They need shooters like Porter Jr. His contract isn’t fully guaranteed in the third year making the deal pretty decent. They get three years of control but can change direction rather quickly if need be. Think he is a good fit.

When I say elite I mean top 15 all NBA level talent. Zion when healthy is probably somewhere between 30-50 if that. Pels would not improve on defense switching BI for MPJ, and I doubt they improve on offense. The only reason to make this trade is to save money, and frankly I don’t see Denver wanting to give a max to BI next year.

The OP doesn’t have Ingram going to Denver and peak Zion is better than that. It’s a wash on defense and better spacing on offense. MPJ is a catch and shoot monster. Ingram is significantly more ball dominant. I’m not sure how the on the court for isn’t better offensively.

1. My bad I meant JB. Butler is about to turn 35. He wants max money on his next deal. Denver would be really screwed if he went downhill.

2. MPJ didn’t deliver in the playoffs. Catch and shoot monster that is often wide open with Jokic and Murray playmaking for him. If you think Zion and CJ are gonna draw that kind of attention and pass that well, good luck.

[nomansland]

I don’t think the Nuggets are giving up all that much for the kind of impact on winning Butler will bring for the next season or two. If he is healthy, he gets them further than MPJ.

He regularly misses 15-25 games a year and was spent in the playoffs against Denver 2 years ago. You have to wonder how much gas is left in that tank even when he's healthy.

This isn’t a great argument against the trade. MOJ is also an injury risk. Butler has had to carry the offensive load for the Heat in the playoffs. The run he had in ‘22 was incredible. His role in Denver next to Jokic and Murray would be very different.

Porter played 81 games last year and it looks like his back injury is behind him. Butler regularly plays around 60 games these days. Could get worse as he gets older.

And if you're saying he'd play a diminished role in Denver, it takes away from the point that Denver's getting a better player (assuming he's not going to decline with age over the next two years, when he plays).

I just don't see Denver trading Porter and future assets to make a marginal upgrade and dump Nnaji's deal.