The Official 2024 Offseason Thread Part 2

[garrick]

Still a lot of James Jones hate and little recognition for what he has done for the franchise. Remember he was hired under Ryan McD for one year. The following year, McD was fired nine days before the season started and Jones was named "Interim GM" to pick up the pieces. Not counting that first year, he holds a 243-148 record (.622) as the GM of the Suns. At the time, the Suns sported a 10 year playoff drought and during his tenure the Suns have been to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years.

Important moves we forget that turned around the team:

Trevor Ariza for Kelly Oubre
Firing Kokoskov and hiring Monty
Signing Rubio as a free agent
Unloading human trash in Josh Jackson
Trading Oubre and Rubio for Chris Paul

Also ...

Third NBA championship appearance
Almost certainly helped the league get rid of Sarver

Ryan McD, Sarver, Josh Jackson, and Ayton were ugly problems Jones inherited. He has helped immensely in the clean up of those messes. He is the right guy until this team is ready for a complete teardown in three years or more. Even then he deserves a shot at a rebuild.

He deserves some credit for turning things around but he still deserves blame for sitting on his hands and not making moves to improve the roster after our finals run.

Some things he did very poorly are,

1. Gutting the scouting team because he thought scouting was overrated
2. Making a horrible pick with Jalen Smith.
3. Refusing to upgrade the PF and backup C position when it was clear Jae was not the long term answer at PF
4. Not getting a decent backup for CP3
5. Telling Jae to stay away from the team, then refusing trade offers for Rui or Grayson.

Simply put he got way too complacent and thought the roster didn't need any upgrading.

1. Really hard to fairly judge anything Jones did under Sarver in regards to scouting. Sarver was a cheap ass who disbanded the G-League team. That leads me to believe Sarver would be too cheap to pay for international and national scouts and probably expected evaluations to be done via video, at the combine, and bringing in players for workouts.

2. Jalen Smith is still in the league and just bagged a 3 year $27M/year contract. Cam Johnson and Toumani Camara were also Jones draft picks. He seems to pick solid rotational-to-starter level players. Contrast that with the picks he has given up in Culver and Day'Ron Sharpe. Certainly he overlooked Haliburton but so did 1/3 of the GMs in the league.

3 & 5. Crowder and Cam Johnson were the long term power forwards for the Suns. Ayton and Smith were meant to be the center rotation. Crowder holding out hurt the Suns who were already struggling with cap space. Not a lot could be done to replace Jae and honestly he hurt his career trajectory with that stupid move. Again all this happened under a cheap owner who didn't want to extend Crowder. Bottom line, Crowder and Sarver where the problems not Jones.

4. Cam Payne was an adequate backup. The real problem was repeated CP3 injuries during the playoffs.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2019/2/27/18242951/woj-suns-are-concern-for-nba-barely-scouting-draft-prospects

Also, Woj relayed that Jones seems to not be a fan of scouting draft prospects. Jones’ indifference toward it has led to him not being on the road a lot checking out possible top-5 picks. There’s barely any sort of this going on in Phoenix, even though almost every other team in the lottery has pivoted towards draft preparation.

“Right now, James Jones is his interim general manager just a couple years retired from the NBA,” Wojnarowski said. “Jones has had a rather unorthodox view towards the NBA draft. There’s not a lot of scouting going on in Phoenix. He’s not on the road a lot.”

You might have a point except that James Jones from the beginning did not like to scout prospects which might explain how he ended up skipping Maxey and Hali and settled on Jalen.

Yes Sarver was an idiot but he did not shy away from investing in draft picks until JJ came along and who knows why Sarver sold the G league team.

I would guess that JJ had a big hand in that because why invest in a G league team if your GM is not going to scout any players or put any effort into it?

[sunsbg]

South Sudan made Team USA sweat. For Book and KD's good mood going into next season sake, I hope they win gold on a super team.

[bigfoot]

He deserves some credit for turning things around but he still deserves blame for sitting on his hands and not making moves to improve the roster after our finals run.

Some things he did very poorly are,

1. Gutting the scouting team because he thought scouting was overrated
2. Making a horrible pick with Jalen Smith.
3. Refusing to upgrade the PF and backup C position when it was clear Jae was not the long term answer at PF
4. Not getting a decent backup for CP3
5. Telling Jae to stay away from the team, then refusing trade offers for Rui or Grayson.

Simply put he got way too complacent and thought the roster didn't need any upgrading.

1. Really hard to fairly judge anything Jones did under Sarver in regards to scouting. Sarver was a cheap ass who disbanded the G-League team. That leads me to believe Sarver would be too cheap to pay for international and national scouts and probably expected evaluations to be done via video, at the combine, and bringing in players for workouts.

2. Jalen Smith is still in the league and just bagged a 3 year $27M/year contract. Cam Johnson and Toumani Camara were also Jones draft picks. He seems to pick solid rotational-to-starter level players. Contrast that with the picks he has given up in Culver and Day'Ron Sharpe. Certainly he overlooked Haliburton but so did 1/3 of the GMs in the league.

3 & 5. Crowder and Cam Johnson were the long term power forwards for the Suns. Ayton and Smith were meant to be the center rotation. Crowder holding out hurt the Suns who were already struggling with cap space. Not a lot could be done to replace Jae and honestly he hurt his career trajectory with that stupid move. Again all this happened under a cheap owner who didn't want to extend Crowder. Bottom line, Crowder and Sarver where the problems not Jones.

4. Cam Payne was an adequate backup. The real problem was repeated CP3 injuries during the playoffs.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2019/2/27/18242951/woj-suns-are-concern-for-nba-barely-scouting-draft-prospects

Also, Woj relayed that Jones seems to not be a fan of scouting draft prospects. Jones’ indifference toward it has led to him not being on the road a lot checking out possible top-5 picks. There’s barely any sort of this going on in Phoenix, even though almost every other team in the lottery has pivoted towards draft preparation.

“Right now, James Jones is his interim general manager just a couple years retired from the NBA,” Wojnarowski said. “Jones has had a rather unorthodox view towards the NBA draft. There’s not a lot of scouting going on in Phoenix. He’s not on the road a lot.”

You might have a point except that James Jones from the beginning did not like to scout prospects which might explain how he ended up skipping Maxey and Hali and settled on Jalen.

Yes Sarver was an idiot but he did not shy away from investing in draft picks until JJ came along and who knows why Sarver sold the G league team.

I would guess that JJ had a big hand in that because why invest in a G league team if your GM is not going to scout any players or put any effort into it?

Again ... Jones was stuck between Sarver and Covid when the G-League team was sold and Smith drafted. People seem to forget these events. Also, Sarver was always giving away picks ... for example, Luol Deng and Rajon Rondo.

[sunskerr]

I'll give Jones credit for ADDING to the core to help make the finals. But beyond that, he is pretty rough.

I can only judge him for what he's done his draft track record (and some trades) along with reports about his lack of concern for the draft simply mean he is bad at the draft until proven otherwise. Those reports more or less match up with the reality of what we've seen (really rough draft record, all our firsts traded).

And back to "adding to the core"- well it wasn't actually his core of players in the first place. Booker, Ayton, and Bridges were McDonoughs boys and as bad as McD was, you give him credit for those 3 out of 4 (Paul was Jones) our most important guys.

My position is that Jones came in at the right time. But right now, given what he's done and his well-documented lack of care for the draft, it's tough to have much confidence in the guy. That could change in the future and Dunn, our 2nd rounders, and Bud pan out. But right now that's for time to tell and not us, imo.

[lilfishi22]

Just to chime in with my 2c on Jones. I think he's done a lacklustre job after a pretty good solid start to the role. When looking at the big picture, I can't really fault him much on his first maybe 3 seasons:

19-20 (B tier): Hired Monty, took real steps to put together a competitive team, 8-0 Bubble Suns
20-21 (A tier): Made great moves in the offseason, rounded out the team around and helped us get to the first Finals in like 30 years. Only reason I didn't give it the S-tier is because of the draft blunder
21-22 (A tier): Added to that Finals team, some may say we didn't go far enough but that was a franchise record winning team that was out-coached and out-Covid?
22-23 (C tier): Ravaged by injuries but that offseason was also pretty subpar. A lot of talk about internal development which wasn't consistent across the board, offseason signings were basically Okogie/Jock/DLee (underwhelming) then the whole Crowder/DA/Monty thing which clearly wasn't good for vibes and overall, we didn't go into the season with high expectations. Then the KD trade happened
23-24 (C tier): I applaud Jones (as did much of this board and the general NBA sphere) for the offseason adding a bunch of guys who had the ability to get to the next level and surrounding this team with shooters with only the vet min to work with. Between injuries, those vet min guys not panning out and the Big 3 not gelling the way we had anticipated, it was a rough season but I don't really put those on Jones nearly as much because those are more on court basketball issues. The Vogel hire was the major black mark on Jones' record.

And like Sunskerr mentioned, you can only judge him by the moves he made. I have my own personal feelings towards the owner/GM led moves but no one has any clear view on that so it's impossible to say definitively this move is a GM move or a owner move. What I will say is that when we had exceptions (MLE/DPE) available to us to make further moves and we didn't, that does feel like less of a GM directive than an owner one but I digress

[bigfoot]

Just to chime in with my 2c on Jones. I think he's done a lacklustre job after a pretty good solid start to the role. When looking at the big picture, I can't really fault him much on his first maybe 3 seasons:

19-20 (B tier): Hired Monty, took real steps to put together a competitive team, 8-0 Bubble Suns
20-21 (A tier): Made great moves in the offseason, rounded out the team around and helped us get to the first Finals in like 30 years. Only reason I didn't give it the S-tier is because of the draft blunder
21-22 (A tier): Added to that Finals team, some may say we didn't go far enough but that was a franchise record winning team that was out-coached and out-Covid?
22-23 (C tier): Ravaged by injuries but that offseason was also pretty subpar. A lot of talk about internal development which wasn't consistent across the board, offseason signings were basically Okogie/Jock/DLee (underwhelming) then the whole Crowder/DA/Monty thing which clearly wasn't good for vibes and overall, we didn't go into the season with high expectations. Then the KD trade happened
23-24 (C tier): I applaud Jones (as did much of this board and the general NBA sphere) for the offseason adding a bunch of guys who had the ability to get to the next level and surrounding this team with shooters with only the vet min to work with. Between injuries, those vet min guys not panning out and the Big 3 not gelling the way we had anticipated, it was a rough season but I don't really put those on Jones nearly as much because those are more on court basketball issues. The Vogel hire was the major black mark on Jones' record.

And like Sunskerr mentioned, you can only judge him by the moves he made. I have my own personal feelings towards the owner/GM led moves but no one has any clear view on that so it's impossible to say definitively this move is a GM move or a owner move. What I will say is that when we had exceptions (MLE/DPE) available to us to make further moves and we didn't, that does feel like less of a GM directive than an owner one but I digress

That championship season at least makes his overall tenure a solid B+ for me. The biggest disappointment in Jones was not trading Ayton earlier after that championship run. His value was at its high point and Ayton for Sabonis straight up would have been the steal of the century. Would have loved to see a CP3/Book/Bridges/Johnson/Sabonis starting lineup.

[garrick]

1. Really hard to fairly judge anything Jones did under Sarver in regards to scouting. Sarver was a cheap ass who disbanded the G-League team. That leads me to believe Sarver would be too cheap to pay for international and national scouts and probably expected evaluations to be done via video, at the combine, and bringing in players for workouts.

2. Jalen Smith is still in the league and just bagged a 3 year $27M/year contract. Cam Johnson and Toumani Camara were also Jones draft picks. He seems to pick solid rotational-to-starter level players. Contrast that with the picks he has given up in Culver and Day'Ron Sharpe. Certainly he overlooked Haliburton but so did 1/3 of the GMs in the league.

3 & 5. Crowder and Cam Johnson were the long term power forwards for the Suns. Ayton and Smith were meant to be the center rotation. Crowder holding out hurt the Suns who were already struggling with cap space. Not a lot could be done to replace Jae and honestly he hurt his career trajectory with that stupid move. Again all this happened under a cheap owner who didn't want to extend Crowder. Bottom line, Crowder and Sarver where the problems not Jones.

4. Cam Payne was an adequate backup. The real problem was repeated CP3 injuries during the playoffs.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2019/2/27/18242951/woj-suns-are-concern-for-nba-barely-scouting-draft-prospects

Also, Woj relayed that Jones seems to not be a fan of scouting draft prospects. Jones’ indifference toward it has led to him not being on the road a lot checking out possible top-5 picks. There’s barely any sort of this going on in Phoenix, even though almost every other team in the lottery has pivoted towards draft preparation.

“Right now, James Jones is his interim general manager just a couple years retired from the NBA,” Wojnarowski said. “Jones has had a rather unorthodox view towards the NBA draft. There’s not a lot of scouting going on in Phoenix. He’s not on the road a lot.”

You might have a point except that James Jones from the beginning did not like to scout prospects which might explain how he ended up skipping Maxey and Hali and settled on Jalen.

Yes Sarver was an idiot but he did not shy away from investing in draft picks until JJ came along and who knows why Sarver sold the G league team.

I would guess that JJ had a big hand in that because why invest in a G league team if your GM is not going to scout any players or put any effort into it?

Again ... Jones was stuck between Sarver and Covid when the G-League team was sold and Smith drafted. People seem to forget these events. Also, Sarver was always giving away picks ... for example, Luol Deng and Rajon Rondo.

Phoenix Suns general manager James Jones is about as honest of a front office member as you'll find.

In sessions with reporters, ever rarely does Jones dodge questions presented to him. He acknowledges some elephants in the room while also remaining neutral to the topic.

Much like 7-11, he's pretty much always open with his thoughts and feelings on whatever's being discussed.

That was very much the case when it comes to the Suns' strategy for the NBA Draft. ESPN's Kevin Arnovitz recently compiled an ESPN+ article that used Jones and Phoenix's "unique" approach to the draft by essentially foregoing much of the process of large scouting departments, spending vast amounts of time away from the team and generally using draft picks to equip their squad.


"Jones readily admits that if another unformed Antetokounmpo is toiling in obscurity in southeastern Europe, the Suns wouldn't give him much of a look," said the article.

"He concedes that rarely does a franchise superstar enter the draft as a plug-and-play talent -- think Dwyane Wade or Stephen Curry -- ready to contribute immediately. He appreciates that it's easier for a team in the Win-Now stage of its life cycle to roll its eyes at the faith other franchises place in the draft.



"But in Jones' worldview, a franchise should exist in a perpetual state of Win-Now with a combination of ready-made players, be they drafted or undrafted, and the right veterans who can support them."

One of the more interesting quotes that emerged from the story was his honest take on whether or not Jones would have drafted Suns franchise shooter Devin Booker.

"He even confesses that, had he been at the helm in 2015, he probably would have passed on Booker," said Arnovitz.



"It all depends on what your goal is," Jones says. "Devin is great, but there are 50 skeletons tied to that swing for the star. It wasn't until winning was imported -- Chris, Jae Crowder, drafting a three-year guy who could help right away like Mikal -- that it translated to success. And if you don't import winning around him, there are even more skeletons. So if you want to find the guy with the highest potential to be the future star, then it makes sense to draft him -- if you're willing to navigate the land mines."



Of course this isn't an indictment on Jones' view of the player he was (or became), but rather an honest admission that Booker's profile wouldn't have satisfied the boxes Jones and his team of scouts wanted to check. That's simply the kind of ship Jones runs with Phoenix, and with his recent success in the last two years, it's hard to argue.

Interesting comments aside, it's likely a good thing Jones took over when he did. Booker just might be lighting up the world for another franchise if Jones' timeline was sooner.

We have it from the horse's mouth that he wasn't a believer in the draft and that if a Giannis or a Booker were in the draft he probably would pass on them.

You don't need much more evidence that he never took the draft seriously.

If you're admitting that you're never going to take a chance on a raw prospect like Giannis it means you're a garbage GM that should never be taken seriously.

[lilfishi22]

Just to chime in with my 2c on Jones. I think he's done a lacklustre job after a pretty good solid start to the role. When looking at the big picture, I can't really fault him much on his first maybe 3 seasons:

19-20 (B tier): Hired Monty, took real steps to put together a competitive team, 8-0 Bubble Suns
20-21 (A tier): Made great moves in the offseason, rounded out the team around and helped us get to the first Finals in like 30 years. Only reason I didn't give it the S-tier is because of the draft blunder
21-22 (A tier): Added to that Finals team, some may say we didn't go far enough but that was a franchise record winning team that was out-coached and out-Covid?
22-23 (C tier): Ravaged by injuries but that offseason was also pretty subpar. A lot of talk about internal development which wasn't consistent across the board, offseason signings were basically Okogie/Jock/DLee (underwhelming) then the whole Crowder/DA/Monty thing which clearly wasn't good for vibes and overall, we didn't go into the season with high expectations. Then the KD trade happened
23-24 (C tier): I applaud Jones (as did much of this board and the general NBA sphere) for the offseason adding a bunch of guys who had the ability to get to the next level and surrounding this team with shooters with only the vet min to work with. Between injuries, those vet min guys not panning out and the Big 3 not gelling the way we had anticipated, it was a rough season but I don't really put those on Jones nearly as much because those are more on court basketball issues. The Vogel hire was the major black mark on Jones' record.

And like Sunskerr mentioned, you can only judge him by the moves he made. I have my own personal feelings towards the owner/GM led moves but no one has any clear view on that so it's impossible to say definitively this move is a GM move or a owner move. What I will say is that when we had exceptions (MLE/DPE) available to us to make further moves and we didn't, that does feel like less of a GM directive than an owner one but I digress

That championship season at least makes his overall tenure a solid B+ for me. The biggest disappointment in Jones was not trading Ayton earlier after that championship run. His value was at its high point and Ayton for Sabonis straight up would have been the steal of the century. Would have loved to see a CP3/Book/Bridges/Johnson/Sabonis starting lineup.

I think his overall for me is a C+ mainly because of the draft blunder, his handling of the Monty/Crowder situation and the DA/Turner/Sabonis situation.

I won't relitigate the draft blunders because outside of Cam, the prospect cupboard has been pretty bare and his draft record is pretty clear for everyone to see.

The Monty/Crowder situation felt like a McD move where we held onto an asset for far too long hoping his value would pick up as the season went on. I didn't actually mind the coaching decision to want to bring Crowder off the bench in favor of Cam who clearly was a starting level player who brought more to the table. Just the whole handling of it was poor.

I did forget about the DA situation and you're 100% right, the handling of that was also particularly poor. Now, I think the potential Sabonis trade is excusable. Based on reports coming out "talks "did not get far" and "may have been mostly informal and broadly exploratory—and aimed at the future rather than anything now" so I don't think it had any real legs. We were coming off a Finals run with DA playing a huge role, DA was having his best season of his career with highs in efficiency, his defense and as a team, we were hitting our stride winning like 17 of the previous 18 heading into ASW. Rocking the boat by sending out a guy who played such a huge role in the Finals run and when we were firing on all cylinders wouldn't have made sense and IIRC, that was also the general consensus around here when rumors were coming out.

The Turner non-trade is the one that is inexcusable. It was clear after that season and post season, DA wasn't the guy, we had already passed on extending him the previous offseason and we already had real questions as to whether he's the guy we wanted to commit to and I believe he wanted a change in scenery so moving him in a S&T for Turner just made sense. Throw in the offseason stuff about Monty and DA not talking after G7, it should've been the ending to DA's Suns tenure we all should've gotten.

I was going to keep it at a B but with the DA/Turner situation, I think it's hard not to drop it down a slot. Unlike some on this board, I DO give JJ credit for those first 3 seasons of moves and getting us into an ultra-competitive form after a half decade at the bottom of the league

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

I really don't know what they'd have to offer us in a KD trade aside from maybe Butler or some combination of:

- Herro/Ware/Jovic/29' Miami 1st/2031 Miami 1st/ 26' Flakers 2nd. But that'd be the absolute floor return, and anything less than that, I'd hang up the phone rather quickly!

[Fo-Real]

Read on Twitter

I really don't know what they'd have to offer us in a KD trade aside from maybe Butler or some combination of:

- Herro/Ware/Jovic/29' Miami 1st/2031 Miami 1st/ 26' Flakers 2nd. But that'd be the absolute floor return, and anything less than that, I'd hang up the phone rather quickly!

Naa

[Slim Charless]

Read on Twitter

I really don't know what they'd have to offer us in a KD trade aside from maybe Butler or some combination of:

- Herro/Ware/Jovic/29' Miami 1st/2031 Miami 1st/ 26' Flakers 2nd. But that'd be the absolute floor return, and anything less than that, I'd hang up the phone rather quickly!

Naa

I think Miami is gonna get Ingram. He'll be much cheaper than KD. Probably Herro, J³ and a cpl picks is enough.

Personally, I'd rather trade Booker than Durant. We'll get more and since KD and Beal are on the same timeline, they can both be gone in the same off-season if it doesn't work. 3 years from now.

Either way though, Houston is my choice if I have to make the move. Maybe Orlando if you don't wanna trade in the western conference. Both have youth and picks. Houston has ours which makes them a prime candidate to make this move for 1 of our 2 stars.

[KdoubleDees23]

I want shroder for the suns

[sunskerr]

Im giving us until like January to pass any serious judgment. I think given how mediocre we were last year, and with the same core group returning, that it's fair to evaluate as early as January rather than February. Because if we have been mid for well over 100 games by January 2025, I think that's probably good enough to conclude we're not real contenders.

But if (when...) we are not real contenders by January, I don't really care what we do with KD. Send him wherever for the biggest package. If KD goes to the Rockets maybe we can get a strong prospect and two of our picks back, but not all of them. I think Beal will be untradeable forever but maybe if KD is gone he recoups some value by increased usage and we can move him in 25-26. Doubt it though.

With Booker I really don't know what to do. I can see trading him for all our picks, a single strong prospect from the Rockets, along with a role player prospect. I don't think we're ever going to be contenders with our situation (BEAL CONTRACT AND NO PICKS). It's probably best to move him whilst he's at his absolute most valuable, but it's just so bloody tough to ever see that happening.

I don't think we'd be totally putting up a white flag by trading only KD, either. I think we're experiencing diminishing returns on Beal as a 3rd option, and if you get a strong prospect back in a KD trade who is buried in the Rockets rotation, by putting Beal and that prospect in bigger roles then maybe we can somehow become a treadmill team getting more out of them. But at least we'd be on the treadmill a bit younger with two of our picks back, instead of geriatric with no picks.

Just contingent on what the Rockets want. I'd be quite shocked if they're interested in KD lol. But I can dream of building a new roster that at least has some kind of flexibility.

[Slim Charless]

Im giving us until like January to pass any serious judgment. I think given how mediocre we were last year, and with the same core group returning, that it's fair to evaluate as early as January rather than February. Because if we have been mid for well over 100 games by January 2025, I think that's probably good enough to conclude we're not real contenders.

But if (when...) we are not real contenders by January, I don't really care what we do with KD. Send him wherever for the biggest package. If KD goes to the Rockets maybe we can get a strong prospect and two of our picks back, but not all of them. I think Beal will be untradeable forever but maybe if KD is gone he recoups some value by increased usage and we can move him in 25-26. Doubt it though.

With Booker I really don't know what to do. I can see trading him for all our picks, a single strong prospect from the Rockets, along with a role player prospect. I don't think we're ever going to be contenders with our situation (BEAL CONTRACT AND NO PICKS). It's probably best to move him whilst he's at his absolute most valuable, but it's just so bloody tough to ever see that happening.

I don't think we'd be totally putting up a white flag by trading only KD, either. I think we're experiencing diminishing returns on Beal as a 3rd option, and if you get a strong prospect back in a KD trade who is buried in the Rockets rotation, by putting Beal and that prospect in bigger roles then maybe we can somehow become a treadmill team getting more out of them. But at least we'd be on the treadmill a bit younger with two of our picks back, instead of geriatric with no picks.

Just contingent on what the Rockets want. I'd be quite shocked if they're interested in KD lol. But I can dream of building a new roster that at least has some kind of flexibility.

KD: All our picks/Brooks/Jabari/Amen/Steven Adams

Booker: All our picks/Jalen/Brooks/Sengun/Jabari


I think it's quite obvious they made their trades to aquire 1 of our dudes. Either KD or Booker. If we wanted to go that route, then I imagine the deal would've been done already.

[sunskerr]

Im giving us until like January to pass any serious judgment. I think given how mediocre we were last year, and with the same core group returning, that it's fair to evaluate as early as January rather than February. Because if we have been mid for well over 100 games by January 2025, I think that's probably good enough to conclude we're not real contenders.

But if (when...) we are not real contenders by January, I don't really care what we do with KD. Send him wherever for the biggest package. If KD goes to the Rockets maybe we can get a strong prospect and two of our picks back, but not all of them. I think Beal will be untradeable forever but maybe if KD is gone he recoups some value by increased usage and we can move him in 25-26. Doubt it though.

With Booker I really don't know what to do. I can see trading him for all our picks, a single strong prospect from the Rockets, along with a role player prospect. I don't think we're ever going to be contenders with our situation (BEAL CONTRACT AND NO PICKS). It's probably best to move him whilst he's at his absolute most valuable, but it's just so bloody tough to ever see that happening.

I don't think we'd be totally putting up a white flag by trading only KD, either. I think we're experiencing diminishing returns on Beal as a 3rd option, and if you get a strong prospect back in a KD trade who is buried in the Rockets rotation, by putting Beal and that prospect in bigger roles then maybe we can somehow become a treadmill team getting more out of them. But at least we'd be on the treadmill a bit younger with two of our picks back, instead of geriatric with no picks.

Just contingent on what the Rockets want. I'd be quite shocked if they're interested in KD lol. But I can dream of building a new roster that at least has some kind of flexibility.

KD: All our picks/Brooks/Jabari/Amen/Steven Adams

Booker: All our picks/Jalen/Brooks/Sengun/Jabari


I think it's quite obvious they made their trades to aquire 1 of our dudes. Either KD or Booker. If we wanted to go that route, then I imagine the deal would've been done already.

I'd prefer to part with KD, obviously. But I am extremely doubtful he can get us all our picks back. Just don't see the value at 36 years old. And I hope you're not suggesting all those players combined for Booker or for KD. We're not getting their entire foundation.

I'd target either Thompson, Sheppard, or Sengun in that order (whilst I think the Rockets are cautious about his future, I think they'd still much prefer to pair Sengun with KD). Don't give a (nice word) about Jalen Green at this point but I'd take him if they'd attach him to the centerpiece.

[Slim Charless]

Im giving us until like January to pass any serious judgment. I think given how mediocre we were last year, and with the same core group returning, that it's fair to evaluate as early as January rather than February. Because if we have been mid for well over 100 games by January 2025, I think that's probably good enough to conclude we're not real contenders.

But if (when...) we are not real contenders by January, I don't really care what we do with KD. Send him wherever for the biggest package. If KD goes to the Rockets maybe we can get a strong prospect and two of our picks back, but not all of them. I think Beal will be untradeable forever but maybe if KD is gone he recoups some value by increased usage and we can move him in 25-26. Doubt it though.

With Booker I really don't know what to do. I can see trading him for all our picks, a single strong prospect from the Rockets, along with a role player prospect. I don't think we're ever going to be contenders with our situation (BEAL CONTRACT AND NO PICKS). It's probably best to move him whilst he's at his absolute most valuable, but it's just so bloody tough to ever see that happening.

I don't think we'd be totally putting up a white flag by trading only KD, either. I think we're experiencing diminishing returns on Beal as a 3rd option, and if you get a strong prospect back in a KD trade who is buried in the Rockets rotation, by putting Beal and that prospect in bigger roles then maybe we can somehow become a treadmill team getting more out of them. But at least we'd be on the treadmill a bit younger with two of our picks back, instead of geriatric with no picks.

Just contingent on what the Rockets want. I'd be quite shocked if they're interested in KD lol. But I can dream of building a new roster that at least has some kind of flexibility.

KD: All our picks/Brooks/Jabari/Amen/Steven Adams

Booker: All our picks/Jalen/Brooks/Sengun/Jabari


I think it's quite obvious they made their trades to aquire 1 of our dudes. Either KD or Booker. If we wanted to go that route, then I imagine the deal would've been done already.

I'd prefer to part with KD, obviously. But I am extremely doubtful he can get us all our picks back. Just don't see the value at 36 years old. And I hope you're not suggesting all those players combined for Booker or for KD. We're not getting their entire foundation.

I'd target either Thompson, Sheppard, or Sengun in that order (whilst I think the Rockets are cautious about his future, I think they'd still much prefer to pair Sengun with KD). Don't give a (nice word) about Jalen Green at this point but I'd take him if they'd attach him to the centerpiece.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Take a look at my trades again.

Brooks: Dead weight and there for cap purposes.
Adams: 1 year contract and there for cap purposes.
Jalen: Disaster of a player till the end of the yr, then made himself some improvements. Still no idea what he is.

As for Amen, he's got a ton of talent and is young. Also unproven. Your dude Sengun is very good but it can't be ignored that the Rockets played MUCH better when he was injured. I think Jabari is the best get of the bunch as he has JJJ vibes to me. The picks will obviously need to be returned.


So yes. I 100% think my deals are adequate if Hou wants Booker especially. KD, maybe there's room for discussion but not much. Booker.....yes. We'll be getting all of that or some equivalent of it. I think, at least.

[garrick]

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Too bad we couldn't get Dinwiddie for the minimum.

Not an elite PG by any means but another instant offence PG that can get hot.

[sunskerr]

KD: All our picks/Brooks/Jabari/Amen/Steven Adams

Booker: All our picks/Jalen/Brooks/Sengun/Jabari


I think it's quite obvious they made their trades to aquire 1 of our dudes. Either KD or Booker. If we wanted to go that route, then I imagine the deal would've been done already.

I'd prefer to part with KD, obviously. But I am extremely doubtful he can get us all our picks back. Just don't see the value at 36 years old. And I hope you're not suggesting all those players combined for Booker or for KD. We're not getting their entire foundation.

I'd target either Thompson, Sheppard, or Sengun in that order (whilst I think the Rockets are cautious about his future, I think they'd still much prefer to pair Sengun with KD). Don't give a (nice word) about Jalen Green at this point but I'd take him if they'd attach him to the centerpiece.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Take a look at my trades again.

Brooks: Dead weight and there for cap purposes.
Adams: 1 year contract and there for cap purposes.
Jalen: Disaster of a player till the end of the yr, then made himself some improvements. Still no idea what he is.

As for Amen, he's got a ton of talent and is young. Also unproven. Your dude Sengun is very good but it can't be ignored that the Rockets played MUCH better when he was injured. I think Jabari is the best get of the bunch as he has JJJ vibes to me. The picks will obviously need to be returned.


So yes. I 100% think my deals are adequate if Hou wants Booker especially. KD, maybe there's room for discussion but not much. Booker.....yes. We'll be getting all of that or some equivalent of it. I think, at least.

That KD trade is highway robbery. You can't get a strong prospect like Amen Thompson and two rotation players, and all our picks back for a 36 year old KD.

If you are correct I will call you god but imo your player evaluation on Sengun, Jabari, and Brooks, while not bad, is just a smidge off.

Sengun would be an adequate centerpiece, but the Rockets are a little unsure on whether they want to build around him and whether or not that's conducive to being a contender. They did play pretty well without him, but you're leaping from that to "he's not good"/"they don't want him" (and thus are ready to move on), which is just that- a leap. That's what they will be testing this year so there isn't any conclusion to the question right now. He's positive in both OEPM (2.0) and DEPM (0.5).

Brooks is a rotation player and a great defender.

And Jabari Smith is a rotation player as well - for all his troubles he's -0.8 EPM at 20 years old which is pretty decent. Certainly doesn't have any body of work to suggest he's the best prospect but he projects as a really nice player who will almost certainly improve. And if you think he projects as JJJ and is the best, then how can you say it is fair for the Rockets to package him with Amen or Sengun?

Amen has arguably the most upside on account of his playmaking, finishing, defensive skill, length, and athleticism. He already projects with a positive DARKO DPM btw, already higher than Jabari Smith. But that is probably a little shaky at this point given Amen has just one season. As a side note but somewhat unrelated- he's a much stronger prospect than his brother and they're absolutely not the same players.

For Booker we can get a massive package perhaps like you listed, but you should probably temper expectations for KD. It's tough to see us coming out of a KD trade breaking even with what we gave up (all our picks and the twins) for him.

Reed Sheppard I think mightve gone #1 if he was an inch taller. If he was available I'd consider him before Jabari. But I'm guessing they are waiting for FVV to expire.

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[Slim Charless]

I'd prefer to part with KD, obviously. But I am extremely doubtful he can get us all our picks back. Just don't see the value at 36 years old. And I hope you're not suggesting all those players combined for Booker or for KD. We're not getting their entire foundation.

I'd target either Thompson, Sheppard, or Sengun in that order (whilst I think the Rockets are cautious about his future, I think they'd still much prefer to pair Sengun with KD). Don't give a (nice word) about Jalen Green at this point but I'd take him if they'd attach him to the centerpiece.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Take a look at my trades again.

Brooks: Dead weight and there for cap purposes.
Adams: 1 year contract and there for cap purposes.
Jalen: Disaster of a player till the end of the yr, then made himself some improvements. Still no idea what he is.

As for Amen, he's got a ton of talent and is young. Also unproven. Your dude Sengun is very good but it can't be ignored that the Rockets played MUCH better when he was injured. I think Jabari is the best get of the bunch as he has JJJ vibes to me. The picks will obviously need to be returned.


So yes. I 100% think my deals are adequate if Hou wants Booker especially. KD, maybe there's room for discussion but not much. Booker.....yes. We'll be getting all of that or some equivalent of it. I think, at least.

That KD trade is highway robbery. You can't get a strong prospect like Amen Thompson and two rotation players, and all our picks back for a 36 year old KD.

If you are correct I will call you god but imo your player evaluation on Sengun, Jabari, and Brooks, while not bad, is just a smidge off.

Sengun would be an adequate centerpiece, but the Rockets are a little unsure on whether they want to build around him and whether or not that's conducive to being a contender. They did play pretty well without him, but you're leaping from that to "he's not good"/"they don't want him" (and thus are ready to move on), which is just that- a leap. That's what they will be testing this year so there isn't any conclusion to the question right now. He's positive in both OEPM (2.0) and DEPM (0.5).

Brooks is a rotation player and a great defender.

And Jabari Smith is a rotation player as well - for all his troubles he's -0.8 EPM at 20 years old which is pretty decent. Certainly doesn't have any body of work to suggest he's the best prospect but he projects as a really nice player who will almost certainly improve. And if you think he projects as JJJ and is the best, then how can you say it is fair for the Rockets to package him with Amen or Sengun?

Amen has arguably the most upside on account of his playmaking, finishing, defensive skill, length, and athleticism. He already projects with a positive DARKO DPM btw, already higher than Jabari Smith. But that is probably a little shaky at this point given Amen has just one season. As a side note but somewhat unrelated- he's a much stronger prospect than his brother and they're absolutely not the same players.

For Booker we can get a massive package perhaps like you listed, but you should probably temper expectations for KD. It's tough to see us coming out of a KD trade breaking even with what we gave up (all our picks and the twins) for him.

Reed Sheppard I think mightve gone #1 if he was an inch taller. If he was available I'd consider him before Jabari. But I'm guessing they are waiting for FVV to expire.

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I agree with your thoughts on HOU plans for Reed. Let him play behind FVV, then take over. Makes a perfect compliment to Booker actually. I still like Jabari more at least athletically and we don't know what Reed can do in the league.

I don't agree with your thoughts on the KD trade. Look what we just gave up for him. Then look at the year he just had-his best since his MVP year. We'll see if I'm right but an unproven Amen, our picks and 2 cap fillers is not by any means wild I think. Jabari is a loss but they have to give something up of true value. Amen much like his brother has major problems shooting the ball. He also missed a ton of time.

Sengun as I said was/is good. I don't think the Rockets "want to get rid of him" I'm very curious to why they haven't paid him yet though. I think he's a bit overrated here in our forum as well. He's not Joker 2.0 but he is very good and I'd love to pair him with KD or Booker (whoever we kept in the trade). A defensive PG and frontcourt would be needed with him as well since his D is lacking.

Because of that, I think he's a better fit for a Booker trade, allowing us to get an actual PG who can play D. Fultz will be very cheap is available. Along with Brooks and that's enough defense to cover for Sengun. We'd still have Dunn off the bench as well.

Houston might have issues with playing both Booker and Jalen since they're both SGs, so they'll probably wanna include Jalen in the deal as opposed to Sengun.

[Saberestar]

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