Why I believe Bill Russell would've been just as good in today's NBA

[FrodoBaggins]

I’ll tell the story again.

Jerry Renyolds was Russell’s assistant coach in Sac (also head coach before and after him). Jerry is a lifer. Proof? He goes back to riding on the garbage truck with Bird. Literally. He rode on the truck with him.

Jerry tells a story of trading for Ralph Sampson and Russell having him into the office when he arrived. At some point Russell asked Sampson to stand up and put his hand in the air. Standing next to him Russell put his hand in the air too, it was almost the full hand higher.

This lines up with other anecdotes about his wingspan:

'Rumor has it that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who was 7 feet 2 inches without shoes, and over 7 foot 3 with shoes, once stood next to Bill Russell, holding a basketball. He then looked at Bill and said, "Hey, can you touch the ball without standing on your toes?" He then held the ball as high up above his head as he could, asking Bill to try to touch the ball without standing on his toes, and which point Bill walked over, and standing completely flatfooted, stretched on of his arms up as high as he could... and placed the palm of his hand over the TOP of the basketball (which Kareem's hand was underneath).'

'Russell has only a 7'4" wingspan. As for his standing reach, its undetermined. There was however this 7'3" white dude named Swede Halbrook from Oregon and in a photo-op before jumpball in an NCAA regional finals, he raised the ball as high as he could but Russell was still able to place his hands on top of the ball Swede was holding up.

A lot of coaches foremost among them is Red Auerbach maintains that a basketball player's true height is not from his feet to the top of his head but rather from his feet to the tip of his upstretched arms.

People just don't realize how functionally big Bill was. He could match Chamberlain for standing reach despite being several inches shorter. And Wilt had a barefoot 9'6" standing reach, which would be listed as 9'7" with how they do it in shoes today at the NBA Draft Combine.

Russell vs. Wilt jump ball:

Video demonstrates it.

Russell is a basketball specimen. Might as well have been designed to play defense in a lab. He was perfect for it, then and now. The only difference is defense matters less now.

Bam/Dray comps are so far off. Cross KG with Howard, that’s a lot closer to the type of athlete (and even that comp falls a bit short).

I like that KG/Howard mix. That's pretty good for a quick, surface-level comparison.

[One_and_Done]

I was literally just thinking how he'd be like a mix of Bam Adebayo and Dennis Rodman. Dominant defensively, can switch everything, guard 1 through 5, rim protect, jump passing lanes, and run the floor in transition. Then on offense be basically Bam with a hook shot.

Which is not a top 10 player today.

That is silly. Where do you rate Adebayo?

Nowhere near 10th best in the league.

[louc1970]

Which is not a top 10 player today.

That is silly. Where do you rate Adebayo?

Nowhere near 10th best in the league.

So #1?

[tsherkin]

Hard to envision a major shift from Bill on O. Surely, a change in his absolute efficiency. Lots of cuts, O-boards, lobs, etc. An efficient 15-19 ppg seems likely. He was smart, athletic and had good size. He also sucked ass at the line and that wouldnt likely change, and would impede his overall offensive value.

Defensively, a stand-out, likely a perennial All-D guy with his name in the DPOY race. Excellent rebounder. Not likely an MVP candidate, but immensely valuable nonetheless.

[dhsilv2]

Hard to envision a major shift from Bill on O. Surely, a change in his absolute efficiency. Lots of cuts, O-boards, lobs, etc. An efficient 15-19 ppg seems likely. He was smart, athletic and had good size. He also sucked ass at the line and that wouldnt likely change, and would impede his overall offensive value.

Defensively, a stand-out, likely a perennial All-D guy with his name in the DPOY race. Excellent rebounder. Not likely an MVP candidate, but immensely valuable nonetheless.

He seemed to have moderate handles for that era, I'd assume ball handling rules give him a nice boost with his passing today. Modern balls, rims, and coaching hopefully at least limit how bad a free throw shooter he was. But yeah, he's not learning to shoot. But his passing in space with modern ball handling should at least improve the perception of his offense (which I think gets down played because he shot a good for the league but terrible for today field goal percentage in his era).

I'd add he did seem to have the ability to up scoring volume without much of a drop off in his scoring efficiency in the playoffs. That's generally a pretty good sign and the sample sizes aren't terrible there.

[dhsilv2]

Which is not a top 10 player today.

That is silly. Where do you rate Adebayo?

Nowhere near 10th best in the league.

Where do you have Bam? Cause I have him in that 20-30 range. Give him basically unlimited stamina, more mobility, faster, and a motor to never stop or give up on a play...and that sounds like a guy in the top 10.

[One_and_Done]

That is silly. Where do you rate Adebayo?

Nowhere near 10th best in the league.

Where do you have Bam? Cause I have him in that 20-30 range. Give him basically unlimited stamina, more mobility, faster, and a motor to never stop or give up on a play...and that sounds like a guy in the top 10.

Bam already has elite stamina, mobility, etc. He has a jump shot too.

These Russell tales are so hyperbolic, I'm just waiting for someone to tell me about the time their boat broke down, so they just had Russell hold his arms out so they could attach sails.

Russell's lack of offense make it impossible for him to be top 10 today. Period.

[dhsilv2]

Nowhere near 10th best in the league.

Where do you have Bam? Cause I have him in that 20-30 range. Give him basically unlimited stamina, more mobility, faster, and a motor to never stop or give up on a play...and that sounds like a guy in the top 10.

Bam already has elite stamina, mobility, etc. He has a jump shot too.

These Russell tales are so hyperbolic, I'm just waiting for someone to tell me about the time their boat broke down, so they just had Russell hold his arms out so they could attach sails.

Russell's lack of offense make it impossible for him to be top 10 today. Period.

We are talking about a hybrid of Bam and Rodman. Bam's stamina, mobility, and motor aren't remotely close to Rodman.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Who would the archetype for Russell even be? Even if he was Gobert, Gobert is not a top 10 player.

The thing is that we don't really know how a guy like Russell could have developed if he was born in the late 90s/00s.
He had his formative years in the 40s/50s, with different level of coaching he could have today.
Once you look at his raw tools you can notice his feel, his quickness, even a decent handling. Not sure about his touch.
What could a modern skills coach to with that?
Not saying he could have been anything (even a boat!) but he already had more diverse skillset than Rudy, likely more similar to Domas.
And Domas with DPoY level defense is a MVP candidate, easily.

[tsherkin]

He seemed to have moderate handles for that era, I'd assume ball handling rules give him a nice boost with his passing today. Modern balls, rims, and coaching hopefully at least limit how bad a free throw shooter he was.

I doubt we would see a major change in FT%. Play type would absolutely raise his raw efficiency. For a simplistic example, using him like Gobert would do that alone. He had a bit more in the way of passing chops but that gets limited by his lack of shooting.

I'd add he did seem to have the ability to up scoring volume without much of a drop off in his scoring efficiency in the playoffs.

Bit of a low bar given era efficiency though.
League average was 47.6% TS in his career. He was a 47.4% TS guy on his postseason career. That isnt the guy you want handling high usage, even assuming he manages a 10 or 11% increase in raw TS due to era/deployment changes. Efficiency wasnt his strength, nor were mid-range or perimeter scoring. He would have to significantly alter his offensive skill profile to be a worthwhile spot to funnel scoring possessions in volume.

It matters only so much, of course. He would still be a brilliant addition to any team, naturally.

[dhsilv2]

He seemed to have moderate handles for that era, I'd assume ball handling rules give him a nice boost with his passing today. Modern balls, rims, and coaching hopefully at least limit how bad a free throw shooter he was.

I doubt we would see a major change in FT%. Play type would absolutely raise his raw efficiency. For a simplistic example, using him like Gobert would do that alone. He had a bit more in the way of passing chops but that gets limited by his lack of shooting.

I'd add he did seem to have the ability to up scoring volume without much of a drop off in his scoring efficiency in the playoffs.

Bit of a low bar given era efficiency though.
League average was 47.6% TS in his career. He was a 47.4% TS guy on his postseason career. That isnt the guy you want handling high usage, even assuming he manages a 10 or 11% increase in raw TS due to era/deployment changes. Efficiency wasnt his strength, nor were mid-range or perimeter scoring. He would have to significantly alter his offensive skill profile to be a worthwhile spot to funnel scoring possessions in volume.

It matters only so much, of course. He would still be a brilliant addition to any team, naturally.

He was a 60% free throw shooter with a few runs in the 70% range. No reason modern coaching can't get him closer to 70% which removes the liability issues. Worse case if you had a Clint Capella with some real passing chops, that's a pretty good player. Peaked around 16.6 a game at 63.6% from the line and shot 64.8% on mostly lobs. Russell is more athletic, has more touch around the rim, had better handles, and passing.

That's not star on the offensive end but I think that's a pretty decent plus offensive player. And I really can't think of where Russell lacks vs Capella on offense.

[TunaFish]

Someday people will have trouble explaining why Jokic is such a phenom.

Russell was special and perhaps you needed to see him to understand how great a player he was. I saw him play against Wilt and it was unforgettable. Still, I would have a difficult time explaining why he was such a phenom. Maybe the number of championships is all you need to know.

[tsherkin]

He was a 60% free throw shooter with a few runs in the 70% range. No reason modern coaching can't get him closer to 70% which removes the liability issues.

56% FT shooter who managed 60% on a season twice, sample MUUUUCH larger than the playoffs. League average during his career was 73%. It was 78% this past season and plenty of guys still sucked.

IOW, it is not a given that he would be better at the line.

Worse case if you had a Clint Capella with some real passing chops, that's a pretty good player. Peaked around 16.6 a game at 63.6% from the line and shot 64.8% on mostly lobs. Russell is more athletic, has more touch around the rim, had better handles, and passing.

Capela is a 25 mpg player, so it is easier to get away with that. But yes, using Russ the same way would surely work well for his attempts. The issue still becomes one of spacing and MPG.

Capela is also an 11 ppg player, so he is relied upon veeery little, takes less than 9 FGA/g and is a +1 to +2% rTS guy these past couple seasons mostly. He isnt anything to write home about. Russ at 17+ ppg and above-average efficiency, coupled to his passing and offensive rebounding, sure. Bit of a different story, I agree. But even still, I wouldnt argue too hard for his O without a really good PnR/lob lead ballhandler.

[tsherkin]

Someday people will have trouble explaining why Jokic is such a phenom.

Russell was special and perhaps you needed to see him to understand how great a plyer he was. I saw him play against Wilt and it was unforgettable. Still, I would have a difficult time explaining why he was such a phenom. Maybe the number of championships is all you need to know.

Russell was hella special. He wouldnt exert the same impact in a league a half century after hw changed the game (no one really would), but he was a monster, no doubt.

[JonFromVA]

Someday people will have trouble explaining why Jokic is such a phenom.

Russell was special and perhaps you needed to see him to understand how great a plyer he was. I saw him play against Wilt and it was unforgettable. Still, I would have a difficult time explaining why he was such a phenom. Maybe the number of championships is all you need to know.

Russell's desire to win and understanding of what it takes to win was unparalleled. It's rarely talked about anymore as the number of people who've watched him play and interacted with him keeps shrinking and sports talk fills all it's hours with garbage.

Heck, I've probably forgotten 99% of the things I've heard or read about Russ over the years.

And yet, the level of competition and the game has changed so much. We can't know what it would mean as far as how he'd fair in current times.

So, much better if people would just focus on what made him great in his own era and honor his peers too who don't deserve to be forgotten either, but it seems like a losing battle.

[Rishkar]

Who would the archetype for Russell even be? Even if he was Gobert, Gobert is not a top 10 player.

Why not?

[dhsilv2]

He was a 60% free throw shooter with a few runs in the 70% range. No reason modern coaching can't get him closer to 70% which removes the liability issues.

56% FT shooter who managed 60% on a season twice, sample MUUUUCH larger than the playoffs. League average during his career was 73%. It was 78% this past season and plenty of guys still sucked.

IOW, it is not a given that he would be better at the line.

Worse case if you had a Clint Capella with some real passing chops, that's a pretty good player. Peaked around 16.6 a game at 63.6% from the line and shot 64.8% on mostly lobs. Russell is more athletic, has more touch around the rim, had better handles, and passing.

Capela is a 25 mpg player, so it is easier to get away with that. But yes, using Russ the same way would surely work well for his attempts. The issue still becomes one of spacing and MPG.

Capela is also an 11 ppg player, so he is relied upon veeery little, takes less than 9 FGA/g and is a +1 to +2% rTS guy these past couple seasons mostly. He isnt anything to write home about. Russ at 17+ ppg and above-average efficiency, coupled to his passing and offensive rebounding, sure. Bit of a different story, I agree. But even still, I wouldnt argue too hard for his O without a really good PnR/lob lead ballhandler.

Again Capela peaked at 16.6 a game at 33 minutes. Passing ability plus having more ability to put the ball on the floor greatly reduces the negatives of poor shooting. It doesn't negate it. Russell would have some spacing issues.

People want to paint Russell closer to Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman than what he'd be. Which is much more likely a slightly better Capella type of lob threat with some post moves if you need them in a pinch and some ball handling.

[tsherkin]

Again Capela peaked at 16.6 a game at 33 minutes. Passing ability plus having more ability to put the ball on the floor greatly reduces the negatives of poor shooting. It doesn't negate it. Russell would have some spacing issues.

Yeah, 5 years ago on the 2019 Rockets with
Harden the year after his MVP (he finished 2nd). That is relevant context. He also managed 14+ ppg twice in his career. Capela was okay, but he was only so useful.

People want to paint Russell closer to Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman than what he'd be. Which is much more likely a slightly better Capella type of lob threat with some post moves if you need them in a pinch and some ball handling.

This is non-sequitur, as I am not doing that.

I have already agreed that he would shoot well based on deployment and have been speaking of him scoring in the teens at above league average efficiency. None of that looks like Bem Wallace or Dennis Rodman at all.

Perhaps you are.mistaking my comments about Capela for the projected version of Russ?

[theonlyclutch]

Again Capela peaked at 16.6 a game at 33 minutes. Passing ability plus having more ability to put the ball on the floor greatly reduces the negatives of poor shooting. It doesn't negate it. Russell would have some spacing issues.

Yeah, 5 years ago on the 2019 Rockets with
Harden the year after his MVP (he finished 2nd). That is relevant context. He also managed 14+ ppg twice in his career. Capela was okay, but he was only so useful.

Capela's best years in terms of combining volume and efficiency came when playing with two of the most prolific and skilled PnR playmakers of all time, on the same team, as arguably the sole big of the team in that finishing role, with lots of spacing given how 3-happy the Rockets were.

That cannot be the basis of a comparison to what a hypothetical Russell may do on offense.

[tsherkin]

Again Capela peaked at 16.6 a game at 33 minutes. Passing ability plus having more ability to put the ball on the floor greatly reduces the negatives of poor shooting. It doesn't negate it. Russell would have some spacing issues.

Yeah, 5 years ago on the 2019 Rockets with
Harden the year after his MVP (he finished 2nd). That is relevant context. He also managed 14+ ppg twice in his career. Capela was okay, but he was only so useful.

Capela's best years in terms of combining volume and efficiency came when playing with two of the most prolific and skilled PnR playmakers of all time, on the same team, as arguably the sole big of the team in that finishing role, with lots of spacing given how 3-happy the Rockets were.

That cannot be the basis of a comparison to what a hypothetical Russell may do on offense.

That was my specific point, yes.