Shams: Spencer Dinwiddie to Dallas

[The Servant]

10ppg on 39/33/80 isn't moving the needle for anyone

[Texas Chuck]

Instead of stockpiling 18 backcourt players who there are literally not enough minutes in game for and some of which will be living in DNP-CD land, they should have used one of those roster spots on (or traded for) a backup center who is an actual NBA caliber player and not the breathing trainwreck that is Dwight Powell.

.

So Dwight Powell has been a positive on court every single season since 2017. Every one. For a 4th center who is one of the hardest workers in the league, a leader(on the NBAPA leadership team despite not being a star player), and one of the finest humans in the Association.

Is he a starting center on a contender? Nope. Is he a guy worth a roster spot? Yeah its fine. Dallas is likely to give a roster spot to Morris just to be friend of Kawhi. Pacers just signed James Johnson to be a veteran. Taj is still cashing checks, etc....

But man what needless slander on a guy who can still play a bit when needed and offers a ton more to a team. Shows the problem with just looking at box scores to evaluate a player....

[picc]

Instead of stockpiling 18 backcourt players who there are literally not enough minutes in game for and some of which will be living in DNP-CD land, they should have used one of those roster spots on (or traded for) a backup center who is an actual NBA caliber player and not the breathing trainwreck that is Dwight Powell.

.

So Dwight Powell has been a positive on court every single season since 2017. Every one. For a 4th center who is one of the hardest workers in the league, a leader(on the NBAPA leadership team despite not being a star player), and one of the finest humans in the Association.

Is he a starting center on a contender? Nope. Is he a guy worth a roster spot? Yeah its fine. Dallas is likely to give a roster spot to Morris just to be friend of Kawhi. Pacers just signed James Johnson to be a veteran. Taj is still cashing checks, etc....

But man what needless slander on a guy who can still play a bit when needed and offers a ton more to a team. Shows the problem with just looking at box scores to evaluate a player....

I disagree. He’s awful and doesnt belong in the NBA. Thats not an indictment on his person, he seems like a standup guy with very positive energy, but if an observation of his basketball capacity sounds slanderous, its prob because you have a personal fondness for him. But everything he offers them he could offer from a bench or assistant role.

I understand he’s a friend of the team and his presence and energy could be morale boosting. I get it. But those qualities are not as positive as his actual game minutes are damaging, should one of your bigs get hurt. He tries hard and hustles. I get that too. But he’s just not big enough to defend at an even an average level and cant do anything on offense besides finish open dunks.

Thats okay for a few minutes in the regular season, but he is a playoff liability and will severely limit the team if given minutes.

Its also ironic you say I only watch box scores bc i’ve never seem a Dwight Powell boxscore. All statements are made from observation of his play in game over the last few years.

They dont even have to drop him. Keep him around for his positive energy. The Mavs FO has proven how creative they are this summer. Use some of that creativity to land a backup big.

And maybe they still will. Plenty of time left before next years playoffs.

I dont expect you to agree, you and Mavs fans clearly have a fondness for him that I cant fault. IIRC he’s the longest tenured team member at this point. There was a certain point when I would fought someone for Luke Walton to remain on the Lakers, even when he sucked. So I get it. Just some observation from a more neutral fan who also likes the team.

[Texas Chuck]

its prob because you have a personal fondness for him.
I dont expect you to agree, you and Mavs fans clearly have a fondness for him that I cant fault. IJust some observation from a more neutral fan who also likes the team.

Right your opinion counts because its neutral and mine doesn't because me and other Mavs fans are just Dwight Powell stans...

I'm the rare Mav fan who doesn't hate Dwight Powell. So stick to just making that the case for me if you need to. Other fans shouldn't be lumped in with me. Because he doesn't shoot 3's, rebound, and he's a mediocre defender at best. I'm not trying to sell anyone on Dwight Powell, great player. He isn't. He's very limited. He's an elite rim runner with great hands and a tremendous finisher. In a PNR league playing with the best PNR guard in the world, he's a pretty useful offensive player(but he was also great playing with old JJ Barea, so its not just the Luka effect, but obviously that doesn't hurt).

No, its simple. We have data. And that data tells us Dallas has won his minutes the past 7 seasons. That's not a guy who is tragic and doesn't belong in the league. Add in all the other stuff he brings and there are probably 75-100 less deserving of a roster spot guys in the league.


You can of course just dismiss me as a fan. That's cool. I am a Mavs fan. And a Dwight Powell one. But objectively he also belongs in the league.

[picc]

its prob because you have a personal fondness for him.
I dont expect you to agree, you and Mavs fans clearly have a fondness for him that I cant fault. IJust some observation from a more neutral fan who also likes the team.

Right your opinion counts because its neutral and mine doesn't because me and other Mavs fans are just Dwight Powell stans...

I'm the rare Mav fan who doesn't hate Dwight Powell. Because he doesn't shoot 3's, rebound, and he's a mediocre defender at best. I'm not trying to sell anyone on Dwight Powell, great player. He isn't. He's very limited. He's an elite rim runner with great hands and a tremendous finisher. In a PNR league playing with the best PNR guard in the world, he's a pretty useful offensive player(but he was also great playing with old JJ Barea, so its not just the Luka effect, but obviously that doesn't hurt).

No, its simple. We have data. And that data tells us Dallas has won his minutes the past 7 seasons. That's not a guy who is tragic and doesn't belong in the league. Add in all the other stuff he brings and there are probably 75-100 less deserving of a roster spot guys in the league.


You can of course just dismiss me as a fan. That's cool. I am a Mavs fan. And a Dwight Powell one. But objectively he also belongs in the league.

I think you took the neutral fan comment too personally. It was more about me than you. I could have just as easily said "outside observer" for what I meant. And I went out of my way to communicate being partial to hometown favorites isn' a bad thing, and I've done it plenty myself. But sure, be extra sensitive if you like. Not my problem.

Its also not simple. There is on/off data that says Derek Lively was a negative defender last season. Obviously untrue. As you know, data can be flawed and extremely circumstantial. And your regular season data of Dwight Powell starting 7 years ago speaks nothing to what would happen in 2025 against elite frontcourt competition in the playoffs, or to what did happen in 2024 against elite frontcourt competition. They are entirely different circumstances that your flawed data samples are entirely irrelevant to.

Saying that, "Shouldn't be in the NBA" may have been a little harsh. Admittedly. But "shouldn't be the injury replacement on a team trying to win a championship" is not.

[Mavrelous]

Dwight Powell is not an NBA calibre player anymore, whatever utility he held, no longer there as he lost clearly lost a step, but he also isn't there to play, but because he's a pro who sets good example in the locker room.

[picc]

Dwight Powell is not an NBA calibre player anymore, whatever utility he held, no longer there as he lost clearly lost a step, but he also isn't there to play, but because he's a pro who sets good example in the locker room.

I'm sure Dwight could play for the Hornets or the Pistons or somebody and it wouldn't make a difference one way or the other. So it that sense, your fellow Mavs fan right, he is technically an NBA caliber player. Congratulations, I suppose.

But all of the good qualities you both have named, he could still do while being the 4th string center on the team behind someone who can actually contribute if Gaff or Lively goes down. Could he not?

So what's the beef?

[Texas Chuck]

But sure, be extra sensitive if you like. Not my problem.

Its also not simple. There is on/off data that says Derek Lively was a negative defender last season. Obviously untrue. As you know, data can be flawed and extremely circumstantial. And your regular season data of Dwight Powell starting 7 years ago speaks nothing to what would happen in 2025 against elite frontcourt competition in the playoffs, or to what did happen in 2024 against elite frontcourt competition. They are entirely different circumstances that your flawed data samples are entirely irrelevant to.

Saying that, "Shouldn't be in the NBA" may have been a little harsh. Admittedly. But "shouldn't be the injury replacement on a team trying to win a championship" is not.

Not your problem, but at least you owned up to you created that issue by focusing on my fandom rather than my argument. We are good. It's easy, lazy but easy, to dismiss a poster based on fandom. I feel like I'm better than that, but that's my ego talking now.

I know data has flaws. Which is why I cited 7 years of it. Hard to fake 7 straight years of being a positive on court player.

Dwight Powell also started two years ago on a conference finalist fwiw. Admittedly he was a weak starter who played limited minutes in the playoffs and Kleber closed close games, but it still happened. I don't have to go back 7 years to see Dallas hanging when having to play him.

But here he is literally the 4th center. And frankly might be the 5th with PJ Washington probably an option if desperation hit. And Dallas still has another roster spot in Lawson to give up if a player is worth it before getting to Powell. Then do they really need all of Dinwiddie, Exum, Hardy? Probably not. I think Powell could easily be the 13th man on Dallas, not even the 15th.

Would it be great if he was peak Dwight Howard instead? Sure. But Dallas is a first apron team with minimums to offer. Not sure who they should be replacing with him now. Maybe after the deadline they look at buyout options if they have a need. But I think they think Lively/Gafford is solid with Maxi a good smallball option.

The real question will be the wings. Jones took the toughest assignment every night. Josh Green wasn't great but he soaked up half the game and played with effort and made enough 3's to have to be defended. Can Marshall/Grimes replace all those minutes? Probably not. So can Klay offer enough extra on offense to make up for a defensive drop off? Can Luka/Kyrie defend like they did in the playoffs more often in the RS so Klay can play with both of them for long stretches? IDK.

Dwight Powell? Just not a real concern of mine.

[picc]

Not your problem, but at least you owned up to you created that issue by focusing on my fandom rather than my argument. We are good. It's easy, lazy but easy, to dismiss a poster based on fandom. I feel like I'm better than that, but that's my ego talking now.

90% of my post was about things other than your fandom. You're the one who chose to focus on those two sentences, to the extent of snipping everything else out in your reply. I wonder if you'll own up to that.

I know data has flaws. Which is why I cited 7 years of it. Hard to fake 7 straight years of being a positive on court player.

Dwight Powell also started two years ago on a conference finalist fwiw. Admittedly he was a weak starter who played limited minutes in the playoffs and Kleber closed close games, but it still happened. I don't have to go back 7 years to see Dallas hanging when having to play him.

And again, none of this flawed, circumstantial data is relevant to a deep round playoff series against a 2025 NBA title contender. Which is how this whole argument started -- with reference to next year and Dallas trying to win a title.

He was a major liability against GS in 2022, and one of the major reasons the series was lost. And a huge liability against Minnie this year, and his presence instead of Lively is why the series went 5 games instead of 4. Hence, "title contention" hopes. I pray the specificity of my argument is starting to materialize.

But here he is literally the 4th center. And frankly might be the 5th with PJ Washington probably an option if desperation hit. And Dallas still has another roster spot in Lawson to give up if a player is worth it before getting to Powell. Then do they really need all of Dinwiddie, Exum, Hardy? Probably not. I think Powell could easily be the 13th man on Dallas, not even the 15th.

Yes, and that's all well and good. For the regular season and weak 1st competition. But PJ Washington and Maxi Kleber are not going to hold up against the elite playoff frontcourts that exist in 2025 should one of Gaff/Lively go down. They simply aren't big enough. Neither is Powell.

I don't feel like I'm saying something controversial. You need size to bang and compete against size. And for all of Dwight's positives, he's not big enough. Neither are the other options. Its a contingency that they may not need, but will wish they had should the worst happen.

[Texas Chuck]

And again, none of this flawed, circumstantial data is relevant to a deep round playoff series against a 2025 NBA title contender. Which is how this whole argument started -- with reference to next year and Dallas trying to win a title.

He was a major liability against GS in 2022, and one of the major reasons the series was lost. And a huge liability against Minnie this year, and his presence instead of Lively is why the series went 5 games instead of 4. Hence, "title contention" hopes. I pray the specificity of my argument is starting to materialize.

Its a contingency that they may not need, but will wish they had should the worst happen.

How many contenders have 3 centers big and good enough to deal with Jokic/Minny/Embiid? Do I wish Dallas had one center better than Lively? I do. But they don't have the assets so obviously I'm hoping he builds on what was a very good playoff run as a rookie. Gafford is one of the best backups in teh league(I know he started, but Lively played more). Maxi is a capable small ball guy.

I wish it was better. I wish it was Bam(though you would tell me he's too small )or AD. Or peak Bill Russell. But this focus on a 4th center is wild. If Dallas is in a playoff center depending on their 4th center, they are in big trouble no matter who it is. Luckily they are unlikely to.

[picc]

Also not saying the Mavs can snap their fingers and get a serviceable backup big. Obviously its not that simple. Just saying it would br a priority of mine as a member of the FO in the considerable amount of time til next postseason.

[picc]

And again, none of this flawed, circumstantial data is relevant to a deep round playoff series against a 2025 NBA title contender. Which is how this whole argument started -- with reference to next year and Dallas trying to win a title.

He was a major liability against GS in 2022, and one of the major reasons the series was lost. And a huge liability against Minnie this year, and his presence instead of Lively is why the series went 5 games instead of 4. Hence, "title contention" hopes. I pray the specificity of my argument is starting to materialize.

Its a contingency that they may not need, but will wish they had should the worst happen.

How many contenders have 3 centers big and good enough to deal with Jokic/Minny/Embiid? Do I wish Dallas had one center better than Lively? I do. But they don't have the assets so obviously I'm hoping he builds on what was a very good playoff run as a rookie. Gafford is one of the best backups in teh league(I know he started, but Lively played more). Maxi is a capable small ball guy.

I wish it was better. I wish it was Bam(though you would tell me he's too small )or AD. Or peak Bill Russell. But this focus on a 4th center is wild. If Dallas is in a playoff center depending on their 4th center, they are in big trouble no matter who it is. Luckily they are unlikely to.

Yes, they’ll be in trouble no matter what.

They’ll be in much worse trouble with Powell.

Dallas has at least two good backcourt players who wont sniff the court most days. This is no different.

[Texas Chuck]

They’ll be in much worse trouble with Powell.

Starting to wonder what this guy did to you if you think Dallas is meaningfully better off with Daniel Theis or Orlando Robinson or Luke Kornet or Wiseman. Or and this one may hit too close to home, Christian Wood. You know the kind of center that contenders with min contracts to offer try to get by on.

but its clear you think Dwight Powell is worthless so I'll drop it.

[picc]

They’ll be in much worse trouble with Powell.

Starting to wonder what this guy did to you if you think Dallas is meaningfully better off with Daniel Theis or Orlando Robinson or Luke Kornet or Wiseman. Or and this one may hit too close to home, Christian Wood. You know the kind of center that contenders with min contracts to offer try to get by on.

but its clear you think Dwight Powell is worthless so I'll drop it.

Dwight can stay on the Mavs for all I care. We’re making summer basketball conversation on a basketball message board.

[kanofwindHK]

But sure, be extra sensitive if you like. Not my problem.

Its also not simple. There is on/off data that says Derek Lively was a negative defender last season. Obviously untrue. As you know, data can be flawed and extremely circumstantial. And your regular season data of Dwight Powell starting 7 years ago speaks nothing to what would happen in 2025 against elite frontcourt competition in the playoffs, or to what did happen in 2024 against elite frontcourt competition. They are entirely different circumstances that your flawed data samples are entirely irrelevant to.

Saying that, "Shouldn't be in the NBA" may have been a little harsh. Admittedly. But "shouldn't be the injury replacement on a team trying to win a championship" is not.

Not your problem, but at least you owned up to you created that issue by focusing on my fandom rather than my argument. We are good. It's easy, lazy but easy, to dismiss a poster based on fandom. I feel like I'm better than that, but that's my ego talking now.

I know data has flaws. Which is why I cited 7 years of it. Hard to fake 7 straight years of being a positive on court player.

Dwight Powell also started two years ago on a conference finalist fwiw. Admittedly he was a weak starter who played limited minutes in the playoffs and Kleber closed close games, but it still happened. I don't have to go back 7 years to see Dallas hanging when having to play him.

But here he is literally the 4th center. And frankly might be the 5th with PJ Washington probably an option if desperation hit. And Dallas still has another roster spot in Lawson to give up if a player is worth it before getting to Powell. Then do they really need all of Dinwiddie, Exum, Hardy? Probably not. I think Powell could easily be the 13th man on Dallas, not even the 15th.

Would it be great if he was peak Dwight Howard instead? Sure. But Dallas is a first apron team with minimums to offer. Not sure who they should be replacing with him now. Maybe after the deadline they look at buyout options if they have a need. But I think they think Lively/Gafford is solid with Maxi a good smallball option.

The real question will be the wings. Jones took the toughest assignment every night. Josh Green wasn't great but he soaked up half the game and played with effort and made enough 3's to have to be defended. Can Marshall/Grimes replace all those minutes? Probably not. So can Klay offer enough extra on offense to make up for a defensive drop off? Can Luka/Kyrie defend like they did in the playoffs more often in the RS so Klay can play with both of them for long stretches? IDK.

Dwight Powell? Just not a real concern of mine.

I agree, Powell is not the best , neither the worst
as a 3rd or 4th C, he will not cause any locker room problem,
when mavs need him , he just stand up and play hard
if we can find a better player to replace in minimum price, it is ok
but if he stay, it is also not a problem
and that's all and i do not know why need to discuss that's much on a 3rd/4th C that u will never see him in playoff time

It mavs have that much assets or effort, better to address the wings upgrade first
it is a resource allocation question

[Ayt]

Its obvious the Mavs are trying to fill the team with players who can create and pass and shoot the 3 after what happened in the finals.

What I don't get is how they are still allowing Dwight Powell to be the backup center. Every minute that guy plays in a net negative for Dallas. If one of the bigs goes down, and they're forced to play him, that's the end of their title contention.

Maybe they are stockpiling all these guards for a trade down the line for a serviceable backup big.

Uhh, I'm going to assume you forgot the Mavs traded for Daniel Gafford, and that Powell is now at best 3rd string, and likely 4th string because Kleber plays small ball 5. The Mavs are set for the moment, and if 4th string center is their biggest concern, they're in a great spot. This has been the best Mavs roster to start the season since Kidd/Nico arrived.

I'm not forgetting anything at all. I said if "ONE" of the bigs goes down, meaning one of Lively or Gafford, then Powell becomes the backup center. Like he was against the Wolves in those disastrous minutes he played when Lively went down in the WCF for a game. The one game in the series you lost, partly because Powell was utterly useless and a gigantic dropoff from Lively.

And no, Maxi Kleber also will not cut it as a backup center against Joker/AD/Towns and Gobert/Embiid/Porzingis/etc.

So again, having a serviceable backup C would be first priority if I was the Mavs, because they are one injury to Gaff or Lively away from their title hopes being drastically reduced.

You aren't talking about the backup center. You are talking the backup to the backup, which is absurd. Name some teams with great 3rd and 4th string centers.

[picc]

You aren't talking about the backup center. You are talking the backup to the backup, which is absurd. Name some teams with great 3rd and 4th string centers.

Who said anything about a great 3rd string center. Or even a good one. An average backup C with any size would be enough, as Powell is both below average and undersized.

To be clear, I think the Mavs are fine as they are, and are in pole position in the West. Its not imperative that they get a backup backup C. "Priority" is relative. If the Mavs make no more moves, they are still West favorites IMO. They have so much backcourt depth that they can't possibly play everyone. They have multiple wings who can play different roles. They have injury insurance with players who can contribute at a playoff level at every position... except center.

So with limited capspace, and limited roster space, what's left to pursue for a front office that has a surplus of nearly everything and is at the top of the West?

Not much. They're sitting pretty. We're splitting hairs here, partly because its July and there's not much else going on until the Olympics.

But if there is something for the team to pursue, its a serviceable injury replacement center. And since NBA FO's are always looking to improve, and always looking to get better -- even when they're in good position -- that's what I would look for with the team's limited remaining resources and abundance of time.

Not that they require it, but because its the only potential weakness they can realistically address at this time. And if you can shore up a potential weakness and make your team's weakest link stronger, why not try?

[Michaellam1987]

You aren't talking about the backup center. You are talking the backup to the backup, which is absurd. Name some teams with great 3rd and 4th string centers.

Who said anything about a great 3rd string center. Or even a good one. An average backup C with any size would be enough, as Powell is both below average and undersized.

To be clear, I think the Mavs are fine as they are, and are in pole position in the West. Its not imperative that they get a backup backup C. "Priority" is relative. If the Mavs make no more moves, they are still West favorites IMO. They have so much backcourt depth that they can't possibly play everyone. They have multiple wings who can play different roles. They have injury insurance with players who can contribute at a playoff level at every position... except center.

So with limited capspace, and limited roster space, what's left to pursue for a front office that has a surplus of nearly everything and is at the top of the West?

Not much. They're sitting pretty. We're splitting hairs here, partly because its July and there's not much else going on until the Olympics.

But if there is something for the team to pursue, its a serviceable injury replacement center. And since NBA FO's are always looking to improve, and always looking to get better -- even when they're in good position -- that's what I would look for with the team's limited remaining resources and abundance of time.

Not that they require it, but because its the only potential weakness they can realistically address at this time. And if you can shore up a potential weakness and make your team's weakest link stronger, why not try?

The depth chart on DAL is as below:

Irving/Dinwiddie/Exum
Luka/Grimes/Hardy/Lawson
Klay/Marshall
PJ/Maxi/Omax
Lively/Gafford/Powell

It is pretty obvious that our strongest link will be on the PG/SG position, headlined by 2 superstar, with decent depth behind. However, if you ask me the next stronger position, I will say the C position. Lively and Gafford are both capable C as starter in this league. And Powell, despite all the weakness, is still a serviceble emergency backup. The only thing to complain is his 4M salary, which is fairly expensive on his current role.

On the other hand, for the both forward position, a regressed Klay, together with the "never-played major minutes" Marshall as back up SF, or the "1st time major minute as starter" PJ, together with significantly regressed Maxi plus a rookie as back up PFs, will definitely worry me more.

[kanofwindHK]

You aren't talking about the backup center. You are talking the backup to the backup, which is absurd. Name some teams with great 3rd and 4th string centers.

Who said anything about a great 3rd string center. Or even a good one. An average backup C with any size would be enough, as Powell is both below average and undersized.

To be clear, I think the Mavs are fine as they are, and are in pole position in the West. Its not imperative that they get a backup backup C. "Priority" is relative. If the Mavs make no more moves, they are still West favorites IMO. They have so much backcourt depth that they can't possibly play everyone. They have multiple wings who can play different roles. They have injury insurance with players who can contribute at a playoff level at every position... except center.

So with limited capspace, and limited roster space, what's left to pursue for a front office that has a surplus of nearly everything and is at the top of the West?

Not much. They're sitting pretty. We're splitting hairs here, partly because its July and there's not much else going on until the Olympics.

But if there is something for the team to pursue, its a serviceable injury replacement center. And since NBA FO's are always looking to improve, and always looking to get better -- even when they're in good position -- that's what I would look for with the team's limited remaining resources and abundance of time.

Not that they require it, but because its the only potential weakness they can realistically address at this time. And if you can shore up a potential weakness and make your team's weakest link stronger, why not try?

1) pls. name the nba team(s) which its 3rd C is clearly better than Powell
2) powell still have 2 year contract with 4M salary annualy, move powell contract away is costly, I will not add another C before someone come and take up powell contract first
3) After moving Powell you need to find a better and cheaper one that will accept as a 3rd C with no playing time at all, and will not case any looker room problem at same time

I always say Powell not the best, neither the worse,
he is still ok to be a 3rd at a low cost

[picc]

The depth chart on DAL is as below:

Irving/Dinwiddie/Exum
Luka/Grimes/Hardy/Lawson
Klay/Marshall
PJ/Maxi/Omax
Lively/Gafford/Powell

It is pretty obvious that our strongest link will be on the PG/SG position, headlined by 2 superstar, with decent depth behind. However, if you ask me the next stronger position, I will say the C position. Lively and Gafford are both capable C as starter in this league. And Powell, despite all the weakness, is still a serviceble emergency backup. The only thing to complain is his 4M salary, which is fairly expensive on his current role.

On the other hand, for the both forward position, a regressed Klay, together with the "never-played major minutes" Marshall as back up SF, or the "1st time major minute as starter" PJ, together with significantly regressed Maxi plus a rookie as back up PFs, will definitely worry me more.

Yeah, I agree the C position is strong. We're talking non-essential contingencies. But you're talking about upgrading good 1st and 2nd string players, while I'm talking about replacing a bad 3rd string one. It would prob be simpler to accomplish, should they pursue accomplishing any of it at all.

Yes it would be great for the Mavs to acquire a big wing who can both play defense and shoot the lights out, but that's far less financially feasible than acquiring a backup big better than Dwight Powell, who we don't align on the practical utility of. I just don't agree he's a serviceable backup on a contending team -- at least not in the situations one would actually be needed.

But I'm fine with your stance on the matter. This is way more Dwight Powell talk then I ever anticipated engaging in.