Beenie wrote:greg4012 wrote:1) Tobias Harris is a clear starter for the Detroit Pistons and is THE highest paid player on their entire payroll for this upcoming season.
2) I didn't ignore Miami's track record of overpaying their own players. You yourself indicated "we know the list so in good faith [you] shouldn't need to cite them all". Why has that now changed? I'm a firm believer that the new CBA compels an entirely different landscape that is being reflected leaguewide. This very website literally published an article about it just yesterday:
https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/276818/The-Era-Of-Easy-Max-Contracts-Is-OverIf every organization is bound to replicate their worst acts in perpetuity then everyone is F**KED. I don't believe that's the case, but I guess you can live in that if you want to. I'll be here to point out the logical fallacies that are shared as a result along the way. Not trying to litigate the past, but def need to recognize it. Mixed bag overall when you consider Miami's recent history of rookie extensions (which should include each of Bam, Herro, Robinson, Winslow, Richardson, and Napier).
I should have qualified my statement to include not just bench players but also non core role players who could conceivably be bench players. The spirit of the point, in case it wasn’t understood, is to not overpay role players in general unless the team is vying for contention. Its a big reason why the market gets inflated, but that’s another topic for another day.
Not acknowledging the list wasn’t the issue. It was not acknowledging the tendency of the mistake. Important to consider in how they will be dealing with future extensions/ resigning.
But since you did bring up the list, add Tyler Johnson, JJ, Waiters, and Whiteside to the names of vastly overpaid retentions.
"Hope trafficking" is the funniest thing a faction of posters on here are trying to make taboo. How am I hope trafficking by providing concrete stats and analysis? AM I hope trafficking in simultaneously liking our young prospects and seeing how they fit if I'm the first one that is aiming to sober expectations on the role a player like Ware will have as a rookie? Or comparing Nikola Jovic to Dario Saric? That's fascinating.
From my vantage point, if anyone in this exchange is "ignoring" points made or "not acknowledging" fit, contractual and behavioral dynamics, it's clearly you. I've cited my work and provided statistical basis regarding the unique skillset of Jovic and how that fit is critically important and impactful for a functioning offense (advanced lineup stats also show this).
What timeline is your research supporting exactly?
Bam.
Do we agree that the future starting lineup for years to come will probably feature Bam and Ware? Do we agree that Ware, if he develops well, will wind up being a 30+ minute a night player? How does Jovic advanced stats project on a roster that will soon change its philosophy by adding a traditional center; and do so without taking Bam out of the mix?
We do not agree. YOu must be the biggest Ware fan and super high on his future to take such a strong position. I'd love to hear more of your breakdown of his skillset since I'm sure this means you have done a deep dive into his college tape, background and skillset.
In what world does a raw rookie that was drafted 15 get to stamp their ticket to the starting lineup without proving themselves? Ware currently needs to physically develop, learn how to play the team game, learn how to set proper screens, and then can be ready to play a limited and structured role as a complementary piece. Will that come as a starter or off the bench? I can't tell you. That's the beauty of getting a bunch of talented competitors on a roster and allowing them to earn their roles.
The fact that you're just recycling the same tired things over and over again despite me providing actual numbers and factual context to inform and refute these lines is indicative of the fact that you're not actually reading or understanding the info provided.
I can tell you that the projected skillsets of each of
Bam, Ware, and Jovic fit together excellently for the sort of team that can be very successful on both sides of the ball and keep size on the court without sacrificing skill, shooting and mobility. I'd contend that Jovic's unique skillset serves as almost a skeleton key to unlock the potential to keep plus size in the frontcourt for entire games. If you haven't noticed, A LOT of the most successful NBA teams have had versatile and deep frontcourts that drive their success.
One of my preferred examples is the Lakers frontcourt that Kobe got to play alongside for his back to back rings in 2009 and 2010. Gasol, Odom and Bynum. Odom's and Gasol's varied skillsets unlocked A LOT where they could each play alongside a Center, and Gasol could also play center. So each of Odom and Bynum were 30 mpg players and Gasol was a 36+ mpg player.
You can see similar frontcourt dynamics at play with a team like Minnesota this season. Reid and Towns are PF/C versatile and Gobert is pure C. YOu saw it with MIL their championship season with Giannis (PF/C), Lopez (C), and Portis (PF/C). YOu saw it when the Lakers won the ship in 2020 with AD (PF/C), Dwight (C), and Kuzma (PF). You saw it in 2019 with Toronto--Gasol (C), Siakam PF, Ibaka (PF/C). A common feature among many of the best teams in recent NBA history is having a deeper and more versatile frontcourt than their opponent. It's not all that is needed, but it's one hell of an advantage.
I can't expect Ware to become any more of an impact player or have a larger role than someone like Robert Williams at this point. A guy that peaked at 29 mpg, but has averaged 20 impactful mpg for his career.
I've already posted how few true 7 footers (or centers for that matter) actually average over 30 mpg in the NBA. These giants operate differently.
You made an abstract mention of Niko expressing frustration in the past. Please provide more context for us to better understand, but it seems like much ado about nothing when for every frustration I can point to twice as many positives.
Niko wasn’t happy with his role and his minutes. You can gaslight and pretend that it wasn’t an issue if you’d like. You can also disregard the general difficulty of managing young players’ expectations and behavior.
Your general MO appears to be to make mountains out of molehills to validate your biases and then aim to cause a big fuss on here about it. I don't subscribe.
I'm not taking Lauri off of the list. I'm taking a reasoned approach to looking at track records for trading partners and market value to understand that there is no way in hell that Danny Ainge is going to trade Lauri to Pat Riley for Niko Jovic, salary filler, and 1 FRP. If the preferred approach is to lament our players and downplay anything that is not a trade with a <1% likelihood of happening, then do you. I'm happy to bet you $1,000 that the referenced Lauri trade of Niko, salary filler, and Miami's one tradeable FRP does not happen this season. You game?
Lol I’m not gambling on any specific trade because all trade rumors/ ideas are inherently unlikely to happen. Doesn’t mean that exploring the idea has no merit. There are complex scenarios that involve 3 or more teams that can happen. Mia is well experienced in executing these types of maneuvers.
Thought so. It's important to use the idea that every very unlikely trade scenario out there is a reason to lament over Miami aiming to develop a young core because it doesn't sufficiently serve your need for a dopamine hit, tho...
Is that what all the fuss is about? The fact that to date Miami is foregoing potentially spending the little future draft capital they have for bringing on Kyle Kuzma to instead build a young dynamic frontcourt with more longevity?
Yea, kuzmas the source of the fuss lol
This is why we peel back the layers to determine if it aligns with logic.
Emotion is a powerful driver.
