If LeBron James didn't cost Wade his 2nd Finals MVP..

[Black Jack]

Wade at his peak (not career) is the 2nd greatest SG after MJ so another FMVP wouldn’t change much for me considering he’s two tiers below MJ in terms of legacy and prime. It’s a shame besides one season of in-shape Shaq he was surrounded by crap during his athletic apex.

Nah Kobe is a greater SG.

Peak Wade needed refs to give him all the calls.

[tsherkin]

Peak Wade needed refs to give him all the calls.

"Needed" is pretty strong language for a guy who shot 52.4% inside the arc in his peak scoring season, then turned around and savaged the same Boston defense that held Kobe to 52.8% TS in the 2010 playoffs. Wade? 65% TS against that same squad, and with much less around him. And that's WITH him shooting 67.5% at the foul line and only taking 8 FTA/g.

Food for thought, man.

[Black Jack]

Peak Wade needed refs to give him all the calls.

"Needed" is pretty strong language for a guy who shot 52.4% inside the arc in his peak scoring season, then turned around and savaged the same Boston defense that held Kobe to 52.8% TS in the 2010 playoffs. Wade? 65% TS against that same squad, and with much less around him. And that's WITH him shooting 67.5% at the foul line and only taking 8 FTA/g.

Food for thought, man.

I get it peak Wade was elite and had better advanced stats than Kobe before his physical decline. There's an argument.

I just prefer Kobe's versatility and based on eye test still think he's better.

[tsherkin]

I get it peak Wade was elite and had better advanced stats than Kobe before his physical decline. There's an argument.

I just prefer Kobe's versatility and based on eye test still think he's better.

There are certainly ways to make pro-Kobe arguments. But your original comment posed the notion that Wade was reliant upon his draw rate, and that was not the case at all. AND at his peak in 09, it bears mention that he shot 41.6% from 16-23 feet on 32.8% of his attempts, or over 7 shots per game. That's extremely good, and stands up with any of Kobe's best seasons in that regard.

So as far as "versatility" is concerned, minding that Wade was also a good post guard, there isn't a huge difference. Particularly since Wade shot 36% on 7.1 3PA/g and 40.5% on 7.4 3PA/g in the 09 and 10 playoffs.

He was much-injured, so it's hard to tell what would have happened if he'd managed to stay healthy.

A 2011 title would have meant a 3-peat if the rest of his history unfolded as it did, but it also likely means a Lebron Finals MVP, so I don't know that it would change too much about Wade's ranking all-time, in fairness.

[OdomFan]

Wade doesn't make the 2011 Finals without LeBron.

Why not? Wade and Bosh were paired up before Lebron made his decision. Whose to say Pat Riley couldn't have filled the rest of that roster well to built a winner by 2011, or a year after that atleast inside of that window? This is Pat Riley we're talking about. If you were a star and you got a call from him telling you a team in South Beach wants you on board that gives you a chance to team up with Wade and Bosh. You'd probably be interested. I think their title chances woulda been fine.

Even if not another star. Just bringing in some solid pieces around that duo could be enough. Wade was no stranger to knowing how to win so he could definitely do it again with the right pieces, and right coach.

[tsherkin]

Why not? Wade and Bosh were paired up before Lebron made his decision. Whose to say Pat Riley couldn't have filled the rest of that roster well to built a winner by 2011, or a year after that atleast inside of that window? This is Pat Riley we're talking about.

The same Riley who was floundering after the Shaq trade to put any kind of real depth/talent around Wade?

The man is good, but he has his down stretches and wasn't omnipotent.

[OdomFan]

Wade at his peak (not career) is the 2nd greatest SG after MJ so another FMVP wouldn’t change much for me considering he’s two tiers below MJ in terms of legacy and prime. It’s a shame besides one season of in-shape Shaq he was surrounded by crap during his athletic apex.

Can't agree with that. Wade was a great player, but Kobe was a better defender, scorer, and shooter. Better leader in general. Replace Wade with Kobe on the 05-07 run, or the 2011-2014 run, and that instantly makes them that much more unfair to the rest of the league. There's a reason every list out there has Kobe ahead of Wade on the all time shooting guards category. Wade is 3 and that's fine for him.

[SerialChiller]

Wade at his peak (not career) is the 2nd greatest SG after MJ so another FMVP wouldn’t change much for me considering he’s two tiers below MJ in terms of legacy and prime. It’s a shame besides one season of in-shape Shaq he was surrounded by crap during his athletic apex.

Nah Kobe is a greater SG.

Peak Wade needed refs to give him all the calls.

Quite possibly the GOAT slasher gets to the line? Wow what a concept! I mean at some point people have to just give credit to a guy who was impossible to keep out of the paint, had a lightning fast first step, and attacked hard inviting contact to the point he had the 20th most dunks of all time as a smaller 2 guard with a somewhat short career lol. The truth was nobody could stop him without fouling, that has nothing to do with the refs. He just put his head down and attacked relentlessly over and over and was overwhelmingly fast, strong and agile.

[OdomFan]

Why not? Wade and Bosh were paired up before Lebron made his decision. Whose to say Pat Riley couldn't have filled the rest of that roster well to built a winner by 2011, or a year after that atleast inside of that window? This is Pat Riley we're talking about.

The same Riley who was floundering after the Shaq trade to put any kind of real depth/talent around Wade?

The man is good, but he has his down stretches and wasn't omnipotent.

The same Riley that landed Bosh with Wade right there in that season. If he could do that, surely he could follow up with some other moves to complete a championship contending roster in the alternate event that Lebron didn't decide to go there to complete that trio. Heck. Give the man some credit. Not saying he was perfect, but he's still Pat f'n Riley, and like I said. With South Beach Miami as your destination along with his ability to wow free agents. I think they would have did ok enough to have a window at 1 or 2 rings.

[SerialChiller]

Why not? Wade and Bosh were paired up before Lebron made his decision. Whose to say Pat Riley couldn't have filled the rest of that roster well to built a winner by 2011, or a year after that atleast inside of that window? This is Pat Riley we're talking about.

The same Riley who was floundering after the Shaq trade to put any kind of real depth/talent around Wade?

The man is good, but he has his down stretches and wasn't omnipotent.

Those who followed the Heat closely knew that Riley was clearing the books for that big 2010 FA. He literally refused to take on any contracts that went beyond that and got rid of all of them he could that did. He actually talked to Wade and told him he was looking to 2010 and that it would be lean times. Wade agreed to the plan but said he was sacrificing some prime years here so it better work out or he'd have to go elsewhere. But it worked out.

[OfficialRef]

Maybe wade shouldn't have froze Lebron out if he wanted it so bad

[tsherkin]

The same Riley that landed Bosh with Wade right there in that season. If he could do that, surely he could follow up with some other moves to complete a championship contending roster in the alternate event that Lebron didn't decide to go there to complete that trio. Heck. Give the man some credit. Not saying he was perfect, but he's still Pat f'n Riley, and like I said. With South Beach Miami as your destination along with his ability to wow free agents. I think they would have did ok enough to have a window at 1 or 2 rings.

Yes, he landed Bosh. ANd he landed Lebron. And I've already acknowledged that he was great. But no one is omnipotent, man. It's HARD to get talent, even in desirable locations. And you'll notice not too much has happened since then.

And no, without Lebron, they had no real title window at that point. They needed Lebron at either end, and there was no one else to replace that. The Spurs would have run things in the window they had. Hell, Chicago might have had a shot in 2011.

[SerialChiller]

Maybe wade shouldn't have froze Lebron out if he wanted it so bad

Huh? The guy was literally yelling at him trying to get him going. Lebron froze and hid in the corner not cutting or anything. He didn't want the ball in the 4th quarters it was obvious.

Watch on YouTube

Then Wade voluntarily tells Lebron it's his team and he needs to find a way to be himself and he'd figure out how to fit in around him that offseason, like he would freeze him out that's hilarious tbh...

[OdomFan]

The same Riley that landed Bosh with Wade right there in that season. If he could do that, surely he could follow up with some other moves to complete a championship contending roster in the alternate event that Lebron didn't decide to go there to complete that trio. Heck. Give the man some credit. Not saying he was perfect, but he's still Pat f'n Riley, and like I said. With South Beach Miami as your destination along with his ability to wow free agents. I think they would have did ok enough to have a window at 1 or 2 rings.

Yes, he landed Bosh. ANd he landed Lebron. And I've already acknowledged that he was great. But no one is omnipotent, man. It's HARD to get talent, even in desirable locations. And you'll notice not too much has happened since then.

And no, without Lebron, they had no real title window at that point. They needed Lebron at either end, and there was no one else to replace that. The Spurs would have run things in the window they had. Hell, Chicago might have had a shot in 2011.

Chris Bosh got hurt shortly after Lebron went back to Cleveland. Its not really the same thing as looking at how things might go with Bosh and Wade starting out in 2011 on that team. Maybe the Spurs do win, but we don't know what moves Miami would made in this without Lebron situation. its anyones guess.

[tsherkin]

Chris Bosh got hurt shortly after Lebron went back to Cleveland. Its not really the same thing as looking at how things might go with Bosh and Wade starting out in 2011 on that team. Maybe the Spurs do win, but we don't know what moves Miami would made in this without Lebron situation. its anyones guess.

Bosh healthy or not is immaterial. My point about him was more that he wasn't good enough to be the difference-maker.

Miami would have only so many moves to make, was sort of my point.

[ScrantonBulls]

The same Riley that landed Bosh with Wade right there in that season. If he could do that, surely he could follow up with some other moves to complete a championship contending roster in the alternate event that Lebron didn't decide to go there to complete that trio. Heck. Give the man some credit. Not saying he was perfect, but he's still Pat f'n Riley, and like I said. With South Beach Miami as your destination along with his ability to wow free agents. I think they would have did ok enough to have a window at 1 or 2 rings.

Yes, he landed Bosh. ANd he landed Lebron. And I've already acknowledged that he was great. But no one is omnipotent, man. It's HARD to get talent, even in desirable locations. And you'll notice not too much has happened since then.

And no, without Lebron, they had no real title window at that point. They needed Lebron at either end, and there was no one else to replace that. The Spurs would have run things in the window they had. Hell, Chicago might have had a shot in 2011.

Chris Bosh got hurt shortly after Lebron went back to Cleveland. Its not really the same thing as looking at how things might go with Bosh and Wade starting out in 2011 on that team. Maybe the Spurs do win, but we don't know what moves Miami would made in this without Lebron situation. its anyones guess.

Yes, surely Pat Riley could have put a contender together by finding players better than *checks notes* LeBron James, lmao. Your insecurity about LeBron being clearly better than Kobe results in god awful arguments regarding LeBron. You have zero credibility when talking about him. In another thread today you literally said LeBron has a good future core with Andrew Wiggins and ANTHONY BENNETT, and he should have gone with those guys instead of getting Kevin Love (even though that wasn't his decision...) Quite frankly, you should be embarrassed by the points you make regarding LeBron.

Make the points without the personal attacks, thanks!

[OdomFan]

Yes, he landed Bosh. ANd he landed Lebron. And I've already acknowledged that he was great. But no one is omnipotent, man. It's HARD to get talent, even in desirable locations. And you'll notice not too much has happened since then.

And no, without Lebron, they had no real title window at that point. They needed Lebron at either end, and there was no one else to replace that. The Spurs would have run things in the window they had. Hell, Chicago might have had a shot in 2011.

Chris Bosh got hurt shortly after Lebron went back to Cleveland. Its not really the same thing as looking at how things might go with Bosh and Wade starting out in 2011 on that team. Maybe the Spurs do win, but we don't know what moves Miami would made in this without Lebron situation. its anyones guess.

Yes, surely Pat Riley could have put a contender together by finding players better than *checks notes* LeBron James, lmao. Your insecurity about LeBron being clearly better than Kobe results in god awful arguments regarding LeBron. You have zero credibility when talking about him. In another thread today you literally said LeBron has a good future core with Andrew Wiggins and ANTHONY BENNETT, and he should have gone with those guys instead of getting Kevin Love (even though that wasn't his decision...) Quite frankly, you should be embarrassed by the points you make regarding LeBron.

and your insecurities goes right to assuming blah blah blah, better than Lebron James. Blah. Nobody said anything about anyone being better than Lebron James. Its about the team. The Miami Heat simply having a chance to win a championship in the scenario that Lebron did not go there. Riley could have definitely built something good around Bosh and Wade. End of story. Btw, nope. Not feeling embarrassed at all. I gave my view on it and sticking by it. Thanks for the laugh though "tough guy".

[Swindle]

The Finals series had 3 games decided by 3 points or less with Dallas taking 2 out of 3 of them. Wade was phenomenal in those 2 losses putting up a game high 36 pts on 65% shooting and another game high of 32 pts on 65% shooting again. It’s a fair assessment that if lebron played up to around Pippen’s level, especially in game 4, Wade would have had another ring and finals MVP. With the way Wade played that should have been the easiest ring of Lebron’s life.

As far as Wade’s legacy, it wouldn’t put him over Kobe and I’m a huge Wade Stan. I think it will cost him more in the future with up and coming SGs that can overtake him easier without the 2 finals MVPs and 4 rings. Lebron still led Miami to 2 championships that Wade benefited from which overall outweighs the bad of the 1 series.

[jbsays]

Wade at his peak (not career) is the 2nd greatest SG after MJ so another FMVP wouldn’t change much for me considering he’s two tiers below MJ in terms of legacy and prime. It’s a shame besides one season of in-shape Shaq he was surrounded by crap during his athletic apex.

Nah Kobe is a greater SG.

Peak Wade needed refs to give him all the calls.

Kobe averaged more free throws than Wade.
The majority who watched would likely agree Kobe was a more versatile scorer (although not always as efficient) and in his prime Wade relentlessly attacked the hoop. Nobody would say Wade was a better shooter than Kobe, but Wade still finished with a better FG % (48% to 44.7%).

EDIT: I do think Kobe had the better career and longevity. But, for a couple seasons Wade was just as good as Kobe, if not better. It just didn't last long.

[jbsays]

In the 2011 NBA Finals Mario Chalmers took more free throws than Lebron. That pretty much sums up Lebron's performance in regards to being aggressive.
I don't really look at this as a choke or whatever.... it was what was needed to take Lebron to the next level and he took no prisoners the next year.