Realgm analysis on why Bulls are stuck with Lavine (a rare good read)

[SimonFish]

Usually Realgm analysis are full of BS but this is a rare good read.

https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/276818/The-Era-Of-Easy-Max-Contracts-Is-Over

The Bulls desperately want to trade LaVine, a three-level scorer with All-Star bona fides who can drop 25 points with one hand while mindlessly scrolling Instagram with the other. They can’t.

That’s because in 2022, LaVine signed a five-year, $215 million maximum contract extension. It was roughly the same dollar total as Devin Booker got from the Phoenix Suns that same summer. Booker and LaVine were different players, even then. Booker was a year removed from an NBA Finals run. He had proven he can win at the league’s highest levels. LaVine had played four career playoff games. They both got max deals.

Why? Because that just what you did back then, under the previous CBA.

Within the previous salary cap ecosystem, teams gave away max contracts like donuts on free donut day.

But free donut day is over in the NBA. Now front offices must account for every sprinkle as the first and second apron looms. Teams are coming to the realization that they will only have room for two maximum contracts within this new salary-cap structure, lest they go over the second apron. That means being more discerning than ever when committing max money.

Teams don’t want LaVine, not because he isn’t a good player, but because he isn’t worth one of their two max slots. It’s a numbers game.

I am calling that Lavine will stay at least until he becomes an expiring contract (i.e. 2026). If Lavine cannot produce at superstar level, no team would trade for him. And if he can actually produce at superstar level, the team might actually get into the Playoffs so AKME won't trade him.

[PaKii94]

Usually Realgm analysis are full of BS but this is a rare good read.

https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/276818/The-Era-Of-Easy-Max-Contracts-Is-Over

The Bulls desperately want to trade LaVine, a three-level scorer with All-Star bona fides who can drop 25 points with one hand while mindlessly scrolling Instagram with the other. They can’t.

That’s because in 2022, LaVine signed a five-year, $215 million maximum contract extension. It was roughly the same dollar total as Devin Booker got from the Phoenix Suns that same summer. Booker and LaVine were different players, even then. Booker was a year removed from an NBA Finals run. He had proven he can win at the league’s highest levels. LaVine had played four career playoff games. They both got max deals.

Why? Because that just what you did back then, under the previous CBA.

Within the previous salary cap ecosystem, teams gave away max contracts like donuts on free donut day.

But free donut day is over in the NBA. Now front offices must account for every sprinkle as the first and second apron looms. Teams are coming to the realization that they will only have room for two maximum contracts within this new salary-cap structure, lest they go over the second apron. That means being more discerning than ever when committing max money.

Teams don’t want LaVine, not because he isn’t a good player, but because he isn’t worth one of their two max slots. It’s a numbers game.

I am calling that Lavine will stay at least until he becomes an expiring contract (i.e. 2026). If Lavine cannot produce at superstar level, no team would trade for him. And if he can actually produce at superstar level, the team might actually get into the Playoffs so AKME won't trade him.

https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/276717/The-Jalen-Brunson-Zach-LaVine-Corollary

This is also pretty good

[dougthonus]

I am calling that Lavine will stay at least until he becomes an expiring contract (i.e. 2026). If Lavine cannot produce at superstar level, no team would trade for him. And if he can actually produce at superstar level, the team might actually get into the Playoffs so AKME won't trade him.

For vet players:
Paul George, Pascal Siakam, and OG Anunoby all had max offers (Anunoby took less to stay with NY, but reportedly had multiple max offers).

Anunoby has had one all defensive team, zero all-star appearances and a Lonzo Ball pre-Bulls like health record and a career PER of 13.4.

Siakam has 2 all-star appearances, a career PER of 18.4

Paul George is at least a legit star player, but you are paying for his 34-37 seasons and he signed the 35% max, and is at best the #2 on a title and maybe the #3, and that's if he doesn't decline (career PER guy of 19.4).

For early rookie extensions on non-all-star caliber guys:
Franz Wagner, Scottie Barnes, Evan Mobley, and Cade Cunningham have entered the chat.

All signed after 3 years to full max deals with Rose rule raises possible a year before they were even restricted free agents where the worst that could happen is they go to the market and sign a worse deal that you match.

The league hasn't changed how it would value a guy like LaVine IMO, he just has 3 bad things going for him:
1: He played badly last year
2: He was hurt last year and had season ending surgery and people want to see him healthy
3: The team did better in his absence

If LaVine comes back and is scoring 26+ points a game on 61% TS% again and proves #1 was a fluke and #2 has been resolved, there will be a positive market for him even if #3 isn't disproved at all.

[sco]

I am calling that Lavine will stay at least until he becomes an expiring contract (i.e. 2026). If Lavine cannot produce at superstar level, no team would trade for him. And if he can actually produce at superstar level, the team might actually get into the Playoffs so AKME won't trade him.

For vet players:
Paul George, Pascal Siakam, and OG Anunoby all had max offers (Anunoby took less to stay with NY, but reportedly had multiple max offers).

Anunoby has had one all defensive team, zero all-star appearances and a Lonzo Ball pre-Bulls like health record and a career PER of 13.4.

Siakam has 2 all-star appearances, a career PER of 18.4

Paul George is at least a legit star player, but you are paying for his 34-37 seasons and he signed the 35% max, and is at best the #2 on a title and maybe the #3, and that's if he doesn't decline (career PER guy of 19.4).

For early rookie extensions on non-all-star caliber guys:
Franz Wagner, Scottie Barnes, Evan Mobley, and Cade Cunningham have entered the chat.

All signed after 3 years to full max deals with Rose rule raises possible a year before they were even restricted free agents where the worst that could happen is they go to the market and sign a worse deal that you match.

The league hasn't changed how it would value a guy like LaVine IMO, he just has 3 bad things going for him:
1: He played badly last year
2: He was hurt last year and had season ending surgery and people want to see him healthy
3: The team did better in his absence

If LaVine comes back and is scoring 26+ points a game on 61% TS% again and proves #1 was a fluke and #2 has been resolved, there will be a positive market for him even if #3 isn't disproved at all.

I will say a few things here. First, I think that the play-in has had more teams trying to compete and IMO it has resulted in more demand for allstar and near allstars (especially young guys) and that has pumped up the value of more guys into the MAX level. Add to that a growing cap, coupled with rosters targeted around trying for 3 MAX guys and a bunch of rookie deals and vet mins seemingly being in vogue, and guys are just getting paid more.

I think NO has been disappointed that Zion hasn't really stepped forward as a legit #1, and now is forced to retool around a #2 type guy (i.e. similar to what we did with Lavine) and as such, they know Ingram isn't a legit #1 and they need to be picky or be stuck with 2 #2 type guys. I think if Zion was a superstar, they might have been more inclined to pay Ingram. Instead they are stuck with a mid-3.

On Lavine, I'm with Doug. I think the lack of interest in Zach is more about ending the season with a foot injury (that also depressed his stats, IMO). No competnnt GM wants to take a chance on a guy coming off foot surgery with 3 MAX years left. If Zach had played the full season as he did the prior one, IMO there would be a large pool of teams clamoring to pay 1 or 2 1sts in a deal.

[kodo]

Disagree w/ the analysis, we're still seeing sky high contracts for players that are not star level.
17 ppg 5 apg 4 rpg, 56% TS. $35M (quickley)
19 ppg 4 apg 5 rpg, 57% TS. $45M-$54M (wagner)
25 ppg 4 apg 4 rpg, 61% TS. $43M (lavine)

Also worth noting that when Lavine was finally healthy post ASG, he was 27 ppg on 64% TS.
Teams will pay 40-something with the cap rising to $200M, Lavine's problems are that he was injured, fell out of the favor with the coach, and the Bulls want financial relief.

This is identical to the Markkanen situation. He had strange injuries that year (anemia?), fell out of favor with Donovan and was benched (along with Coby), and the Bulls wanted financial relief. And the media reported he had no market in the NBA.
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/8/10/22618454/lauri-markkanen-free-agency-bulls-contract-pelicans-mavs-teams

Lauri Markkanen is stuck in NBA free agency limbo
Does anyone want the Bulls’ 7-foot sharpshooter?
...
According to insider Jake Fischer of Bleacher Report, the Bulls want to acquire a first round pick in any sign-and-trade deal with Markkanen to another deal, and Chicago is urging potential suitors to find a third team in the deal so they won’t have to take any salary back.

Markkanen himself is a guy who hasn't taken his team anywhere close to the playoffs and will easily get $50M+ if he decides to enter UFA vs extending with Utah.

[burlydee]

Part of the reason guys like Markannen and Ingram can't get traded is because they're asking for max contracts without being superstar players. Lauri can't be a top 2 on a championship team without creating too many other holes so I'm not giving him $50 million a year. Teams need to make the deal Brunson got, taking less standard.

Paul George, OG, Siakam are all perceived as high level 2 way players. Ppl don't perceive Zach on that level bc he hasn't been consistently good or on good enough teams.

[burlydee]

I am calling that Lavine will stay at least until he becomes an expiring contract (i.e. 2026). If Lavine cannot produce at superstar level, no team would trade for him. And if he can actually produce at superstar level, the team might actually get into the Playoffs so AKME won't trade him.

For vet players:
Paul George, Pascal Siakam, and OG Anunoby all had max offers (Anunoby took less to stay with NY, but reportedly had multiple max offers).

Anunoby has had one all defensive team, zero all-star appearances and a Lonzo Ball pre-Bulls like health record and a career PER of 13.4.

Siakam has 2 all-star appearances, a career PER of 18.4

Paul George is at least a legit star player, but you are paying for his 34-37 seasons and he signed the 35% max, and is at best the #2 on a title and maybe the #3, and that's if he doesn't decline (career PER guy of 19.4).

For early rookie extensions on non-all-star caliber guys:
Franz Wagner, Scottie Barnes, Evan Mobley, and Cade Cunningham have entered the chat.

All signed after 3 years to full max deals with Rose rule raises possible a year before they were even restricted free agents where the worst that could happen is they go to the market and sign a worse deal that you match.

The league hasn't changed how it would value a guy like LaVine IMO, he just has 3 bad things going for him:
1: He played badly last year
2: He was hurt last year and had season ending surgery and people want to see him healthy
3: The team did better in his absence

If LaVine comes back and is scoring 26+ points a game on 61% TS% again and proves #1 was a fluke and #2 has been resolved, there will be a positive market for him even if #3 isn't disproved at all.

I will say a few things here. First, I think that the play-in has had more teams trying to compete and IMO it has resulted in more demand for allstar and near allstars (especially young guys) and that has pumped up the value of more guys into the MAX level. Add to that a growing cap, coupled with rosters targeted around trying for 3 MAX guys and a bunch of rookie deals and vet mins seemingly being in vogue, and guys are just getting paid more.

I think NO has been disappointed that Zion hasn't really stepped forward as a legit #1, and now is forced to retool around a #2 type guy (i.e. similar to what we did with Lavine) and as such, they know Ingram isn't a legit #1 and they need to be picky or be stuck with 2 #2 type guys. I think if Zion was a superstar, they might have been more inclined to pay Ingram. Instead they are stuck with a mid-3.

On Lavine, I'm with Doug. I think the lack of interest in Zach is more about ending the season with a foot injury (that also depressed his stats, IMO). No competnnt GM wants to take a chance on a guy coming off foot surgery with 3 MAX years left. If Zach had played the full season as he did the prior one, IMO there would be a large pool of teams clamoring to pay 1 or 2 1sts in a deal.

The Bulls tried to trade Zach last summer too and could find no takers. Not saying the foot has no influence but posters on this board like Zach better than any place I've seen.

[dougthonus]

The Bulls tried to trade Zach last summer too and could find no takers. Not saying the foot has no influence but posters on this board like Zach better than any place I've seen.

Not sure that's true.

They tried to trade him at the previous deadline, and had offers including two 1st round picks and wanted even more. Not sure if they had those discussions in the off-season last year, but unlikely those offers would have been less at that point, after Zach want on an absolute tear post trade deadline and put up like 30ppg on 50/40/90 splits.

I don't recall them trying to engage the trade market again until after Zach said he was open to being traded.

[2weekswithpay]

Part of the reason guys like Markannen and Ingram can't get traded is because they're asking for max contracts without being superstar players. Lauri can't be a top 2 on a championship team without creating too many other holes so I'm not giving him $50 million a year. Teams need to make the deal Brunson got, taking less standard.

Paul George, OG, Siakam are all perceived as high level 2 way players. Ppl don't perceive Zach on that level bc he hasn't been consistently good or on good enough teams.

Lauri most certainly can be traded, the issue is the price Ainge wants. Ingram isn't a great fit next to other talented offensive players, so teams don't want to give him a 4-year 200M contract.

[prolific passer]

Where's that amnesty thing when you need it?

[burlydee]

The Bulls tried to trade Zach last summer too and could find no takers. Not saying the foot has no influence but posters on this board like Zach better than any place I've seen.

Not sure that's true.

They tried to trade him at the previous deadline, and had offers including two 1st round picks and wanted even more. Not sure if they had those discussions in the off-season last year, but unlikely those offers would have been less at that point, after Zach want on an absolute tear post trade deadline and put up like 30ppg on 50/40/90 splits.

I don't recall them trying to engage the trade market again until after Zach said he was open to being traded.

They definitely were testing the trade waters in Summer 2023. From that summer -

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/bulls-reportedly-testing-the-waters-of-a-zach-lavine-trade

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-bulls-started-contacting-teams-155922608.html

You're right they were asking for a high price, which no one was willing to match. Then a bunch of things happen to drive his price down. Beal got traded, he played lackluster for 2 straight years, he behaved like a clown in the media (my opinion), and he got hurt.

The problem with a Lavine trade is that even when he plays well, the perception is that he's not a winning player and the next injury is around the corner. I still think the Bulls will move him prior to the start of the season, but its going to take a team looking to make a leap of faith.

[RSP83]

Yeah, Bulls is better off focusing on Zach being back next season. Try to mend that broken relationship. I think Zach is still tight with his Bulls teammate. The problem seems to be Zach's relationship with Billy. I think the key will be the new voice on the coaching staff, Wes Unseld Jr. and Dan Craig.

[dougthonus]

They definitely were testing the trade waters in Summer 2023. From that summer -

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/bulls-reportedly-testing-the-waters-of-a-zach-lavine-trade

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-bulls-started-contacting-teams-155922608.html

You're right they were asking for a high price, which no one was willing to match.

Which is different than us not being able to find any trade.

Then a bunch of things happen to drive his price down. Beal got traded, he played lackluster for 2 straight years, he behaved like a clown in the media (my opinion), and he got hurt.

I would disagree with your assessment on two of these points:

He didn't play lackluster for two straight years. He was really only lackluster last year. He was still a high volume 60%+ TS% offensive creator the year before that, and as I noted, ended that season destroying the league and won us a play-in game. I think if he had 2 years ago performance last year, that he'd already have been moved for positive value.

I can't think of a single thing Zach has ever said to the media that would be defined as clown behavior. In a league where teams regularly take chances on domestic abusers, guys with DUIs, antisemites, illegal drug use, open revolt against their coaches, etc, to say that teams were scared off by Zach's media quotes/behavior seems more of a personal annoyance for you than a thing teams would really care about.

Beal certainly helped set the market low and Zach's injury and bad play that season were certainly factors.

The problem with a Lavine trade is that even when he plays well, the perception is that he's not a winning player and the next injury is around the corner. I still think the Bulls will move him prior to the start of the season, but its going to take a team looking to make a leap of faith.

I agree with a bit of a caveat, I think the winning perception matters, but only towards getting the type of return you'd think a high volume high efficiency scorer could generate. It won't stop him from being moved for a Beal like return, which we probably would take.

To get that return, I think Zach just needs to get back to where he was 2 years ago. I also agree we'll try to move him, but I think that ship has sailed until the deadline. We've been looking for a long time, it's hard to see what domino would fall now that hasn't already fallen to change a teams mind. Would probably take something super unique like a guy on a team looking to win tearing an ACL.

[burlydee]

They definitely were testing the trade waters in Summer 2023. From that summer -

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/bulls-reportedly-testing-the-waters-of-a-zach-lavine-trade

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-bulls-started-contacting-teams-155922608.html

You're right they were asking for a high price, which no one was willing to match.

Which is different than us not being able to find any trade.

Then a bunch of things happen to drive his price down. Beal got traded, he played lackluster for 2 straight years, he behaved like a clown in the media (my opinion), and he got hurt.

I would disagree with your assessment on two of these points:

He didn't play lackluster for two straight years. He was really only lackluster last year. He was still a high volume 60%+ TS% offensive creator the year before that, and as I noted, ended that season destroying the league and won us a play-in game. I think if he had 2 years ago performance last year, that he'd already have been moved for positive value.

I can't think of a single thing Zach has ever said to the media that would be defined as clown behavior. In a league where teams regularly take chances on domestic abusers, guys with DUIs, antisemites, illegal drug use, open revolt against their coaches, etc, to say that teams were scared off by Zach's media quotes/behavior seems more of a personal annoyance for you than a thing teams would really care about.

Beal certainly helped set the market low and Zach's injury and bad play that season were certainly factors.

The problem with a Lavine trade is that even when he plays well, the perception is that he's not a winning player and the next injury is around the corner. I still think the Bulls will move him prior to the start of the season, but its going to take a team looking to make a leap of faith.

I agree with a bit of a caveat, I think the winning perception matters, but only towards getting the type of return you'd think a high volume high efficiency scorer could generate. It won't stop him from being moved for a Beal like return, which we probably would take.

To get that return, I think Zach just needs to get back to where he was 2 years ago. I also agree we'll try to move him, but I think that ship has sailed until the deadline. We've been looking for a long time, it's hard to see what domino would fall now that hasn't already fallen to change a teams mind. Would probably take something super unique like a guy on a team looking to win tearing an ACL.

We keep revisiting but the entire LA/klutch media thing I think hurt him more than it helped. I think he came off looking silly.

Harden, Lillard, Howard were all traded late in the summer. The Bulls don't want him here. I think the Clippers, Lakers and maybe others will look at their teams as they approach camp and start panicking that they don't have enough to even make the play-in. The price is simply matching his salary. I just think someone is going to bite before camp. It's not like if he scores 24 pts a game in October the math on his salary or his injury history changes. I think the fundamental questions, the thing that makes ppl hesitant, won't go away.

[dougthonus]

We keep revisiting but the entire LA/klutch media thing I think hurt him more than it helped. I think he came off looking silly.

I agree it was silly. Do you think an NBA decision make really would factor that in? Again, NBA decision makers that regularly take chances on guys with felony offenses? I mean I just don't think that remotely had anything to do with anything. He appeared in a Be Klutch shirt. I mean literally, that's it. He didn't say anything demeaning about the Bulls, he didn't mail it in after his request and still attempted to come back from injury, he didn't do anything you think would be poor. I just can't imagine that's a reason here.

Harden, Lillard, Howard were all traded late in the summer. The Bulls don't want him here. I think the Clippers, Lakers and maybe others will look at their teams as they approach camp and start panicking that they don't have enough to even make the play-in. The price is simply matching his salary. I just think someone is going to bite before camp. It's not like if he scores 24 pts a game in October the math on his salary or his injury history changes. I think the fundamental questions, the thing that makes ppl hesitant, won't go away.

We'll see. I'm sure we'll keep trying. I kind of feel like the Lakers would be the obvious choice, just think if they wanted him it would be done already. There aren't that many combinations possible.

It would more or less have to be: Rui, DLo, and Vincent for Zach + Craig. Bulls seem like they'd draw a line at adding picks and doesn't seem like they would demand any back.

[Dan Z]

The Bulls tried to trade Zach last summer too and could find no takers. Not saying the foot has no influence but posters on this board like Zach better than any place I've seen.

Not sure that's true.

They tried to trade him at the previous deadline, and had offers including two 1st round picks and wanted even more. Not sure if they had those discussions in the off-season last year, but unlikely those offers would have been less at that point, after Zach want on an absolute tear post trade deadline and put up like 30ppg on 50/40/90 splits.

I don't recall them trying to engage the trade market again until after Zach said he was open to being traded.

The Bulls had offers that included two first round picks? I know hindsight is 20/20, but even at that time I bet many posters here would say they should take the deal.

What were they expecting? A "Donovan Mitchell" type of return?

[WindyCityBorn]

They definitely were testing the trade waters in Summer 2023. From that summer -

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/bulls-reportedly-testing-the-waters-of-a-zach-lavine-trade

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-bulls-started-contacting-teams-155922608.html

You're right they were asking for a high price, which no one was willing to match.

Which is different than us not being able to find any trade.

Then a bunch of things happen to drive his price down. Beal got traded, he played lackluster for 2 straight years, he behaved like a clown in the media (my opinion), and he got hurt.

I would disagree with your assessment on two of these points:

He didn't play lackluster for two straight years. He was really only lackluster last year. He was still a high volume 60%+ TS% offensive creator the year before that, and as I noted, ended that season destroying the league and won us a play-in game. I think if he had 2 years ago performance last year, that he'd already have been moved for positive value.

I can't think of a single thing Zach has ever said to the media that would be defined as clown behavior. In a league where teams regularly take chances on domestic abusers, guys with DUIs, antisemites, illegal drug use, open revolt against their coaches, etc, to say that teams were scared off by Zach's media quotes/behavior seems more of a personal annoyance for you than a thing teams would really care about.

Beal certainly helped set the market low and Zach's injury and bad play that season were certainly factors.

The problem with a Lavine trade is that even when he plays well, the perception is that he's not a winning player and the next injury is around the corner. I still think the Bulls will move him prior to the start of the season, but its going to take a team looking to make a leap of faith.

I agree with a bit of a caveat, I think the winning perception matters, but only towards getting the type of return you'd think a high volume high efficiency scorer could generate. It won't stop him from being moved for a Beal like return, which we probably would take.

To get that return, I think Zach just needs to get back to where he was 2 years ago. I also agree we'll try to move him, but I think that ship has sailed until the deadline. We've been looking for a long time, it's hard to see what domino would fall now that hasn't already fallen to change a teams mind. Would probably take something super unique like a guy on a team looking to win tearing an ACL.

We keep revisiting but the entire LA/klutch media thing I think hurt him more than it helped. I think he came off looking silly.

Harden, Lillard, Howard were all traded late in the summer. The Bulls don't want him here. I think the Clippers, Lakers and maybe others will look at their teams as they approach camp and start panicking that they don't have enough to even make the play-in. The price is simply matching his salary. I just think someone is going to bite before camp. It's not like if he scores 24 pts a game in October the math on his salary or his injury history changes. I think the fundamental questions, the thing that makes ppl hesitant, won't go away.

He will be on our roster opening tonight. You basically forget about a trade happening before the season starts.

[burlydee]

We keep revisiting but the entire LA/klutch media thing I think hurt him more than it helped. I think he came off looking silly.

I agree it was silly. Do you think an NBA decision make really would factor that in? Again, NBA decision makers that regularly take chances on guys with felony offenses? I mean I just don't think that remotely had anything to do with anything. He appeared in a Be Klutch shirt. I mean literally, that's it. He didn't say anything demeaning about the Bulls, he didn't mail it in after his request and still attempted to come back from injury, he didn't do anything you think would be poor. I just can't imagine that's a reason here.

Harden, Lillard, Howard were all traded late in the summer. The Bulls don't want him here. I think the Clippers, Lakers and maybe others will look at their teams as they approach camp and start panicking that they don't have enough to even make the play-in. The price is simply matching his salary. I just think someone is going to bite before camp. It's not like if he scores 24 pts a game in October the math on his salary or his injury history changes. I think the fundamental questions, the thing that makes ppl hesitant, won't go away.

We'll see. I'm sure we'll keep trying. I kind of feel like the Lakers would be the obvious choice, just think if they wanted him it would be done already. There aren't that many combinations possible.

It would more or less have to be: Rui, DLo, and Vincent for Zach + Craig. Bulls seem like they'd draw a line at adding picks and doesn't seem like they would demand any back.

I think that trade makes sense. And I would not be surprised if LeBron, fresh off a gold medal, pushed for that to happen. Are they really going to waste LeBron last viable season?

From the Clippers, they passed on George bc he wanted 4 years. Guess who only has 3 years left on their contract? PJ, Mann, Powell works salary wise. PJ isn't in rotation. Mann is superfluous with Jones. Lavine much better than Powell. Bulls would probably want to find a 3rd team for Tucker but other than that, it works.

I think there are things out there for Lavine that make sense. And the closer we get to training camp, the more teams will fill urgency. This is where I expect his super agent to make his money.

Edit: With respect to your other point, yes i think it matters. Not anywhere close to the fact that he's not considered worth his contract, but to some extent yes. I think the perception of Lavine is so bad, it's hard for a team like Detroit or Charlotte to bring him in and have any excitement from their fans. They immediately get lit up by national press the moment they trade for him. I also think it plays into existing negative opinions about Lavine - that's he's not serious. He doesn't know what it takes to win. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two teams rumored to even have lingering interest are two teams with proven superstar winners at the ends of their career.

[Dan Z]

We keep revisiting but the entire LA/klutch media thing I think hurt him more than it helped. I think he came off looking silly.

I agree it was silly. Do you think an NBA decision make really would factor that in? Again, NBA decision makers that regularly take chances on guys with felony offenses? I mean I just don't think that remotely had anything to do with anything. He appeared in a Be Klutch shirt. I mean literally, that's it. He didn't say anything demeaning about the Bulls, he didn't mail it in after his request and still attempted to come back from injury, he didn't do anything you think would be poor. I just can't imagine that's a reason here.

Harden, Lillard, Howard were all traded late in the summer. The Bulls don't want him here. I think the Clippers, Lakers and maybe others will look at their teams as they approach camp and start panicking that they don't have enough to even make the play-in. The price is simply matching his salary. I just think someone is going to bite before camp. It's not like if he scores 24 pts a game in October the math on his salary or his injury history changes. I think the fundamental questions, the thing that makes ppl hesitant, won't go away.

We'll see. I'm sure we'll keep trying. I kind of feel like the Lakers would be the obvious choice, just think if they wanted him it would be done already. There aren't that many combinations possible.

It would more or less have to be: Rui, DLo, and Vincent for Zach + Craig. Bulls seem like they'd draw a line at adding picks and doesn't seem like they would demand any back.

I think that trade makes sense. And I would not be surprised if LeBron, fresh off a gold medal, pushed for that to happen. Are they really going to waste LeBron last viable season?

From the Clippers, they passed on George bc he wanted 4 years. Guess who only has 3 years left on their contract? PJ, Mann, Powell works salary wise. PJ isn't in rotation. Mann is superfluous with Jones. Lavine much better than Powell. Bulls would probably want to find a 3rd team for Tucker but other than that, it works.

I think there are things out there for Lavine that make sense. And the closer we get to training camp, the more teams will fill urgency. This is where I expect his super agent to make his money.

Edit: With respect to your other point, yes i think it matters. Not anywhere close to the fact that he's not considered worth his contract, but to some extent yes. I think the perception of Lavine is so bad, it's hard for a team like Detroit or Charlotte to bring him in and have any excitement from their fans. They immediately get lit up by national press the moment they trade for him. I also think it plays into existing negative opinions about Lavine - that's he's not serious. He doesn't know what it takes to win. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two teams rumored to even have lingering interest are two teams with proven superstar winners at the ends of their career.

The Clippers are an interesting choice because of what you said above, plus they can't rebuild until after Kawhi's contract expires (unless they trade him in the next year or so but who would want him?).

My issue with it is do the Bulls want Mann, PJ and Powell? Probably not. Maybe the Clippers 2029 pick goes to the Bulls (it's a swap with Phily)? Maybe Powell plus Mann could bring back an asset or two (to the Bulls)?

[chicago paxsons]

I agree it was silly. Do you think an NBA decision make really would factor that in? Again, NBA decision makers that regularly take chances on guys with felony offenses? I mean I just don't think that remotely had anything to do with anything. He appeared in a Be Klutch shirt. I mean literally, that's it. He didn't say anything demeaning about the Bulls, he didn't mail it in after his request and still attempted to come back from injury, he didn't do anything you think would be poor. I just can't imagine that's a reason here.



We'll see. I'm sure we'll keep trying. I kind of feel like the Lakers would be the obvious choice, just think if they wanted him it would be done already. There aren't that many combinations possible.

It would more or less have to be: Rui, DLo, and Vincent for Zach + Craig. Bulls seem like they'd draw a line at adding picks and doesn't seem like they would demand any back.

I think that trade makes sense. And I would not be surprised if LeBron, fresh off a gold medal, pushed for that to happen. Are they really going to waste LeBron last viable season?

From the Clippers, they passed on George bc he wanted 4 years. Guess who only has 3 years left on their contract? PJ, Mann, Powell works salary wise. PJ isn't in rotation. Mann is superfluous with Jones. Lavine much better than Powell. Bulls would probably want to find a 3rd team for Tucker but other than that, it works.

I think there are things out there for Lavine that make sense. And the closer we get to training camp, the more teams will fill urgency. This is where I expect his super agent to make his money.

Edit: With respect to your other point, yes i think it matters. Not anywhere close to the fact that he's not considered worth his contract, but to some extent yes. I think the perception of Lavine is so bad, it's hard for a team like Detroit or Charlotte to bring him in and have any excitement from their fans. They immediately get lit up by national press the moment they trade for him. I also think it plays into existing negative opinions about Lavine - that's he's not serious. He doesn't know what it takes to win. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two teams rumored to even have lingering interest are two teams with proven superstar winners at the ends of their career.

The Clippers are an interesting choice because of what you said above, plus they can't rebuild until after Kawhi's contract expires (unless they trade him in the next year or so but who would want him?).

My issue with it is do the Bulls want Mann, PJ and Powell? Probably not. Maybe the Clippers 2029 pick goes to the Bulls (it's a swap with Phily)? Maybe Powell plus Mann could bring back an asset or two (to the Bulls)?

If akme's plan is cap relief then that trade is better than the hypothetical d'angelo russell/hachimura/vincent or hachimura/vincent/vanderbilt trades.

Mann and tucker both have 1 year left and them not being particularly impactful at this point will benefit us if akme want a 1 year tank for the 2025 draft. It's also beneficial that mann's, tucker's and lonzo's contracts end at the same time which gives us flexibility in the offseason when we need to decide on resigning giddey.

Powell, at least, is a solid role player who would add shooting as a replacement for lavine without needing a big offensive role. Powell, in my view, is the most beneficial player we could get out the of these options as well.