OT: NFL 24-25 Offseason Thread - Draft Day is upon us

[MrDollarBills]

The Giants paid Jones slightly more than the franchise tag, which is what they were competing against, in order to be able to control his cap hit and make more moves last season.

The alternative wasn't paying Jones significantly less. It was letting him go for nothing, after coming off of a season where he played well and won a playoff game.

That's why this handwringing over his deal is kind of silly. I don't think his contract hurt more than having no real QB at all, which is what the alternative would have been at the time the decision was made.

Schoen put in protections to get out of it after 2 seasons and is further offset by a rising cap, so I'm not sure what more risk mitigation anyone can ask for.

If you wanted the Giants to do something different then you essentially wanted the Giants to go into the offseason with the intention to tank after just making the playoffs the year before.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we going to franchise Jones if Barkley had accepted the Giants 2 year 24m offer?

To your point, while it wasn't an ideal situation, the team ensured that there was an off ramp. I can only speak for myself, but I'm much happier knowing that we won't have a 26m dead cap hit, we will probably miss the playoffs and will have a legit shot at drafting a good QB prospect in the spring.

I have also seen nothing that indicates that the Giants were enamored with any of the free agent choices that offseason.

[Ghetto Gospel]

I am honestly not sure. If they release him after June 1st I think they can split the dead cap over 2 years. $11.1 x 2 lines up with what Dan Duggan is saying about the $22.2mil cap hit

So might be $22.2mil dead cap total that can be split over 1 or 2 years? It's def confusing.

Hopefully it's the lower amount though

according to my madden franchise mode knowledge, i think this is right.

if we cut him after the 2024-2025 season, it's 11.1m per year for 2 years. it's not a ton, it's like 4% of the cap, but i'd rather not have to lose 4% of the cap because we gave out a contract to a garbage player

I agree 100%. Schoen basically handicapped himself over the next two seasons with money that can't be used. But thank the football gods that it's just 4% and not 10%.

So this isn't exactly painless, but I'm not gonna dwell on it. This year is all about incremental improvement on defense, the lines and skill spots while we wait for our franchise QB to drafted next year.

I'm completely done with Jones, he cannot process the field well enough to be a starter, so I hope Lock can push him and possibly overtake him during the season.

yeah in the grand scheme of things, not a BIG deal with huge long-term ramifications like the russell wilson deal. mostly i think it's just a clear indicator of the front org making a mistake. when you factor in the darren waller trade to add a little win-now along with a good amount of back-loaded contracts that year and yeah, just a delay to the rebuild that we all knew was needed.

the good thing is the brian burns deal doesn't look too crazy in terms of the heavy backloading on the tail years so i think they've learned their lesson.

[GONYK]

The Giants paid Jones slightly more than the franchise tag, which is what they were competing against, in order to be able to control his cap hit and make more moves last season.

The alternative wasn't paying Jones significantly less. It was letting him go for nothing, after coming off of a season where he played well and won a playoff game.

That's why this handwringing over his deal is kind of silly. I don't think his contract hurt more than having no real QB at all, which is what the alternative would have been at the time the decision was made.

Schoen put in protections to get out of it after 2 seasons and is further offset by a rising cap, so I'm not sure what more risk mitigation anyone can ask for.

If you wanted the Giants to do something different then you essentially wanted the Giants to go into the offseason with the intention to tank after just making the playoffs the year before.

Funny how they did all that and still missed the playoffs the next year.

You must have believed the Giants were a good team ….cause it was fools gold. I always said it was smoke and mirrors that year.

They got destroyed by all the good teams that year basically.

They were not dominate at all. Did u forget we snuck into the playoffs? We played a 4 win team in the LAST game to make in it.

You thinks it’s silly ….cause you believed in jones the whole time. You was one of his biggest supporters my dude.

It ain’t silly if you still thought he was ass. Who care if we lost jones for nothing? We signed him and still gained nothing lol.

He didn’t play well. He just played better than his low trash standards. The bar was super low. You acting otherwise is wild for the night.

The giants defense did more for us that years record than jones did.

Again he usually always looked ass against the better team.

Daniel Jones had a passer rating of 53.8 with 135 yards and 1 interception in 1 game against the Eagles in the 2022 playoffs.

Nasty work and we gave him more money than Geno Smith got.

Again we would have lost nothing by losing jones cause we in the same position we would have been if we lost him. We STILL need a QB.


You talking all of this silly stuff ….and this is the same Giants management that were trying to draft a QB a YEAR after giving him 160 million.

That’s tells me they realized it was SILLY to give him that contract.



Again….you was a huge DJ supporter so of course you would say all of this.

It’s why Deez has been the most realistic of the early DJ supporters cause he admits it was a bad move to do it and that we shouldn’t have.

The people that wanted jones resigned that summer can’t be acting like they in the right when the giants management was trying to get a new QB only a year later. I mean come on.

Imagine wanting jones resigned that’s summer and you think your logic is more sound that those who said he was not worth resigning that’s summer. He

The fact that Geno made a lot less that summer is also proof about him making less was possible so we need to stop acting jones could only be resigned at that price.

Jones didn’t prove anything more than Geno did. It was a bad resigning even at the price level. Point blank.

Nasty work man.

If you say it’s silly…. I can for sure say it was silly to put faith in jones ….when it was clear he sucks.

You're making this bigger than it is because you think it's all about Jones. It's not.

You either wanted the Giants to go into the offseason with the intention to tank (which I think you did) or you wanted to the Giants to continue to build on their playoff team.

Once Schoen decided to build, the path was set. Jones just happens to be the QB. They paid him contract equivalent of two franchise tags. It's essentially a 2 year deal.

That is the most realistic evaluation of the situation facing the team last spring. So unless Deez or anyone else (no shade Deez, you're my boy) wanted the Giants to tank in March, the hindsight 20/20 opinion of the contract is meaningless. Nobody, including me, Deez, or Schoen could see into the future. If Schoen should be tagged for anything, it's not fortifying the O-Line enough, but that was the cost of keeping Barkley last year.

The fact that they were looking for a QB a year later means they were smart to have a contract with an offramp. The very structure of the contract intimated they weren't sold on Jones, so I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised.

Personally, I don't think Jones is the guy after seeing how the offense looked with other players, but I still think he's a slightly above average QB and is basically paid like one.

You're saying if you know they probably isn't the guy to the point where you protect yourself with the contract structure, just let him go and rebuild. Fine, but it's not that cut and dry. If you are rebuilding, do you not sign Okereke? Do you not extend Dex and Thomas? Do you change your draft philosophy?

Nothing happens in a vacuum. If we aren't bottoming out, then I don't think it makes sense to preemptively waste the season by fielding a team with no real QB. That's ultimately why I have no problem with bet Schoen made. It doesn't hurt us in the long run and maximized our team in the short run.

[GONYK]

The Giants paid Jones slightly more than the franchise tag, which is what they were competing against, in order to be able to control his cap hit and make more moves last season.

The alternative wasn't paying Jones significantly less. It was letting him go for nothing, after coming off of a season where he played well and won a playoff game.

That's why this handwringing over his deal is kind of silly. I don't think his contract hurt more than having no real QB at all, which is what the alternative would have been at the time the decision was made.

Schoen put in protections to get out of it after 2 seasons and is further offset by a rising cap, so I'm not sure what more risk mitigation anyone can ask for.

If you wanted the Giants to do something different then you essentially wanted the Giants to go into the offseason with the intention to tank after just making the playoffs the year before.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we going to franchise Jones if Barkley had accepted the Giants 2 year 24m offer?

To your point, while it wasn't an ideal situation, the team ensured that there was an off ramp. I can only speak for myself, but I'm much happier knowing that we won't have a 26m dead cap hit, we will probably miss the playoffs and will have a legit shot at drafting a good QB prospect in the spring.

I have also seen nothing that indicates that the Giants were enamored with any of the free agent choices that offseason.

If Saquon had signed, they could have minimized his year 1 salary, and that might have been enough to offset enough of a Jones tag, so maybe.

What really screwed us was not picking up Jones' option, but at the time, nobody expected Jones and co. to outperform expectations so much.

[TerrenceClarke]

The Giants paid Jones slightly more than the franchise tag, which is what they were competing against, in order to be able to control his cap hit and make more moves last season.

The alternative wasn't paying Jones significantly less. It was letting him go for nothing, after coming off of a season where he played well and won a playoff game.

That's why this handwringing over his deal is kind of silly. I don't think his contract hurt more than having no real QB at all, which is what the alternative would have been at the time the decision was made.

Schoen put in protections to get out of it after 2 seasons and is further offset by a rising cap, so I'm not sure what more risk mitigation anyone can ask for.

If you wanted the Giants to do something different then you essentially wanted the Giants to go into the offseason with the intention to tank after just making the playoffs the year before.

Funny how they did all that and still missed the playoffs the next year.

You must have believed the Giants were a good team ….cause it was fools gold. I always said it was smoke and mirrors that year.

They got destroyed by all the good teams that year basically.

They were not dominate at all. Did u forget we snuck into the playoffs? We played a 4 win team in the LAST game to make in it.

You thinks it’s silly ….cause you believed in jones the whole time. You was one of his biggest supporters my dude.

It ain’t silly if you still thought he was ass. Who care if we lost jones for nothing? We signed him and still gained nothing lol.

He didn’t play well. He just played better than his low trash standards. The bar was super low. You acting otherwise is wild for the night.

The giants defense did more for us that years record than jones did.

Again he usually always looked ass against the better team.

Daniel Jones had a passer rating of 53.8 with 135 yards and 1 interception in 1 game against the Eagles in the 2022 playoffs.

Nasty work and we gave him more money than Geno Smith got.

Again we would have lost nothing by losing jones cause we in the same position we would have been if we lost him. We STILL need a QB.


You talking all of this silly stuff ….and this is the same Giants management that were trying to draft a QB a YEAR after giving him 160 million.

That’s tells me they realized it was SILLY to give him that contract.



Again….you was a huge DJ supporter so of course you would say all of this.

It’s why Deez has been the most realistic of the early DJ supporters cause he admits it was a bad move to do it and that we shouldn’t have.

The people that wanted jones resigned that summer can’t be acting like they in the right when the giants management was trying to get a new QB only a year later. I mean come on.

Imagine wanting jones resigned that’s summer and you think your logic is more sound that those who said he was not worth resigning that’s summer. He

The fact that Geno made a lot less that summer is also proof about him making less was possible so we need to stop acting jones could only be resigned at that price.

Jones didn’t prove anything more than Geno did. It was a bad resigning even at the price level. Point blank.

Nasty work man.

If you say it’s silly…. I can for sure say it was silly to put faith in jones ….when it was clear he sucks.

You're making this bigger than it is because you think it's all about Jones. It's not.

You either wanted the Giants to go into the offseason with the intention to tank (which I think you did) or you wanted to the Giants to continue to build on their playoff team.

Once Schoen decided to build, the path was set. Jones just happens to be the QB. They paid him contract equivalent of two franchise tags. It's essentially a 2 year deal.

That is the most realistic evaluation of the situation facing the team last spring. So unless Deez or anyone else (no shade Deez, you're my boy) wanted the Giants to tank in March, the hindsight 20/20 opinion of the contract is meaningless. Nobody, including me, Deez, or Schoen could see into the future. If Schoen should be tagged for anything, it's not fortifying the O-Line enough, but that was the cost of keeping Barkley last year.

The fact that they were looking for a QB a year later means they were smart to have a contract with an offramp. The very structure of the contract intimated they weren't sold on Jones, so I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised.

Personally, I don't think Jones is the guy after seeing how the offense looked with other players, but I still think he's a slightly above average QB and is basically paid like one.

You're saying if you know they probably isn't the guy to the point where you protect yourself with the contract structure, just let him go and rebuild. Fine, but it's not that cut and dry. If you are rebuilding, do you not sign Okereke? Do you not extend Dex and Thomas? Do you change your draft philosophy?

Nothing happens in a vacuum. If we aren't bottoming out, then I don't think it makes sense to preemptively waste the season by fielding a team with no real QB. That's ultimately why I have no problem with bet Schoen made. It doesn't hurt us in the long run and maximized our team in the short run.

I’m not making anything bigger my dude. It’s called difference of opinion.

You know I wanted them to tank the next year. I wasn’t late to the party on how I feel schoen rushing the rebuild by signing jones.One thing anyone can say about me is I been consistent.

And by all accounts it would have been the best move.

People keep saying it’s a two year deal. Like I said last year you don’t sign QBs who you truly think are good with outs after two years. You think burrow has an out after two years? If you signed him with a two year out…. It was a bad deal in the first place the way I view schit.

The most sensible thing would have been to reset everything and let DJ kick rocks. Instead we double down on bum which in turn effects other parts of our the rebuild.

The bigger negative was retaining jones…. not letting him walk.

It’s funny how the Giants moved with caution on the more proven player in Barkley vs the cat who didn’t prove anything and make him one of highest paid QB contracts. The giants was bidding against themselves.

I also didn’t even want Barkley back.

There is no hindsight we me at least. I wanted the reset that summer. I thought everything lined up perfectly with their contracts to do it.

Including signing bonuses, guranteed money etc….and the last two years of salary it’s crazy to think how much money would have been given to Jones. I would hate to be an owner and have cough up that much to him. That much for sure

Either way I’m not going to debate much more about DJ at this point cause nothing has changed from me from since Schoen took over. I still think schoen is suspect. I still think Daboll is suspect and we know for sure Jones is suspect.

[mpharris36]

I will just say this in Schoen defense. There is absolutely no way after making the playoffs and winning a road playoff game you were going to sell ownership (John Mara) on a full reset. You see him during hard knocks right now...he was having a hard time moving on from Barkley because he was our "most popular player".

I'm not going to arguing about the contract semantics because those have been hashed out before.

I'm just simply speaking on a realistic level of a complete tear down after the surprise season they had. As a fan for the long term benefit of the team you may have wanted to go full rebuild. Joe Schoen himself might have wanted to go that route (he even admitted the surprise year changed things within the organization). Hell they didn't even pick up DJ's 5th year option because they weren't sure the direction they were going at the time.

I am just pointing out which I think GO sort of mentioning as well moving on from a QB that just made the playoffs and played his best game to win a road playoff game just simply wasn't realistic when you have an owner and season tickets to sell. Its not just the Giants either. I don't see many franchise that could sell there fan base on that approach.

[Ghetto Gospel]

idk, the bills made the playoffs with tyrod taylor, they knew he wasn't that guy and traded up to draft josh allen.

maybe schoen just doesn't have the charisma or interpersonal skills to put it off. maybe we need a better GM to pull that off

[mpharris36]

idk, the bills made the playoffs with tyrod taylor, they knew he wasn't that guy and traded up to draft josh allen.

maybe schoen just doesn't have the charisma or interpersonal skills to put it off. maybe we need a better GM to pull that off

I'm not sure I understand your statement. If anything Joe Schoen proved through hard knocks he was thinking about trading up to #3. If Jayden Daniels was available my guess is the Giants do make a signifcant package but #1 and #2 were a lock so it was trading up for Drake Maye who the Giants still seemed interested in but were still more cautious.

Both Schoen and Daboll were part of the Allen process...if they felt a QB was worth trading up my guess is they would pull the trigger.

The year before that only 3 QB's went in the 1st round and they went 1,2, and 4....and all those teams weren't trading back. It takes two to tango. So I'm not sure what you are asking to pull off.

But to go back to my first point (we have seen through hard knocks) Daniel Jones being on the roster isn't keeping the Giants from going after a QB in the draft if they feel he's the right one...maybe they haven't felt that way about a player yet that is available.

As Daboll said via hardknocks...they evaluated all the QB's...they need to find a Stroud

Its a lot easier to sell a rebuild if you already have your future QB in house. What trade up scenario was available over the last two years where we could have moved up for a QB? The only one is Drake Maye...and I don't know many if any fans were interested in giving up #6, 2025 1st round pick + more picks to move up for Drake Maye (since NE needed a QB you needed to blow them away because they didn't want to deal the pick). Even the biggest Daniel Jones haters didn't want to do that.

[TerrenceClarke]

I could be wrong but I think he is talking about the he was in the Bills FO when they correctly identified Taylor wasn’t the guy and moved on from him in regards to their future. He at least saw first hand what that process was like even if he was not the GM. The situations were the same with the Bills and the Giants in that regard. Both Mid QBs made the playoffs before they were potentially with jones as well moved on from

I think he saying schoen wiffed on his assment on jones. He didn’t have the balls to make the hard decision, which was the obvious right choice , like beane did. What Beane did took Balls to do.

I could be wrong like i said.

[Ghetto Gospel]

I could be wrong but I think he is talking about the he was in the Bills FO when they correctly identified Taylor wasn’t the guy and moved on from him in regards to their future. He at least saw first hand what that process was like even if he was not the GM. The situations were the same with the Bills and the Giants in that regard. Both Mid QBs made the playoffs before they were potentially with jones as well moved on from

I think he saying schoen wiffed on his assment on jones. He didn’t have the balls to make the hard decision, which was the obvious right choice , like beane did. What Beane did took Balls to do.

I could be wrong like i said.

this is exactly what i mean.

josh allen when he came out of the draft was a big project. he was a big body with a big arm that needed to improve his accuracy and decision making and it was going to take some time for him to realize his potential if he was ever going to. brandon beane was willing to take a step back to build something towards the future.

i wasn't referring to this past draft a couple of months ago. i'm referring to last year when daniel jones contract expired and they chose to give him a 40m/year deal.

[mpharris36]

its not about having the balls to make the decision. It was the bills moving up from 12 to 7 to pick the QB they thought had franchise talent. There is nothing suggesting so far the Giants are tied down to Jones long term that they would pass up on a franchise talent in the QB.

Again the bills were ok with willing to take a slight step back because they identified the franchise QB in the draft and they had the ability to move up and make that pick. The Giants picked 25th in the year Daniel Jones essentially became a FA?

Are you suggesting the Giants find a way from trading up to 25 to #3 to secure themselves Anthony Richardson? Has a team ever been able to jump into the top 5 from the 20's for a QB in history? And the Colts were desperate for a QB as well. HOU and CAR also were going QB 1 and 2 as well.

That is what I am not understanding. The Bills identified the option to pivot away from Taylor via the draft. They had the ability to move up and and took it so they felt comfortable taking a step back with a young QB. Which is reasonable.

I think the closest thing you can compare that too is this offseason where the Giants were in close contact with the Pats...but the Pats also needed a QB. So you can't say the Giants/Schoen weren't trying. We have evidence he called a few hours leading up to the draft he would have moved up if the price wasn't historical (per schoen).

They also clearly didn't identify JJ McCarthy as a franchise QB.

So again if the Giants were to say just pivot from Jones after that playoff year without finding a suitable replacement what were they selling the owner/fan base? The Bills were able to trade up for Allen. I 100% guarantee you if the Giants have identified a franchise QB and had the ability to move up to get one you think they would be like nope we have Daniel Jones we good?

[mpharris36]

Let me ask you this hypothetical if the Giants were picking #2 this year you think the Daniel Jones contract would keep them from picking Jayden Daniels?

I think we know the answer from Hard Knocks but I'm just asking.

[Ghetto Gospel]

its not about having the balls to make the decision. It was the bills moving up from 12 to 7 to pick the QB they thought had franchise talent. There is nothing suggesting so far the Giants are tied down to Jones long term that they would pass up on a franchise talent in the QB.

Again the bills were ok with willing to take a slight step back because they identified the franchise QB in the draft and they had the ability to move up and make that pick. The Giants picked 25th in the year Daniel Jones essentially became a FA?

Are you suggesting the Giants find a way from trading up to 25 to #3 to secure themselves Anthony Richardson? Has a team ever been able to jump into the top 5 from the 20's for a QB in history? And the Colts were desperate for a QB as well. HOU and CAR also were going QB 1 and 2 as well.

That is what I am not understanding. The Bills identified the option to pivot away from Taylor via the draft. They had the ability to move up and and took it so they felt comfortable taking a step back with a young QB. Which is reasonable.

I think the closest thing you can compare that too is this offseason where the Giants were in close contact with the Pats...but the Pats also needed a QB. So you can't say the Giants/Schoen weren't trying. We have evidence he called a few hours leading up to the draft he would have moved up if the price wasn't historical (per schoen).

They also clearly didn't identify JJ McCarthy as a franchise QB.

So again if the Giants were to say just pivot from Jones after that playoff year without finding a suitable replacement what were they selling the owner/fan base? The Bills were able to trade up for Allen. I 100% guarantee you if the Giants have identified a franchise QB and had the ability to move up to get one you think they would be like nope we have Daniel Jones we good?

you said this:

I will just say this in Schoen defense. There is absolutely no way after making the playoffs and winning a road playoff game you were going to sell ownership (John Mara) on a full reset. You see him during hard knocks right now...he was having a hard time moving on from Barkley because he was our "most popular player"

all i'm saying is you can do a full reset. the bills found a way to do a full reset when they moved on from tyrod taylor. all schoen needed to identify was that daniel jones was not the QB of the future, it isn't about identifying who was available at 25. i think we can all agree that if we had punted this season and instead had a top 3 pick, we would have picked a QB.

[DOT]

You would've had to give up so many picks to move up to draft a QB that year that it would've handicapped your team going forward, like what happened with the Panthers. Or you could've taken Will Levis

In hindsight the move was probably letting Jones walk and just signing a stopgap, but that would've been a difficult sell.

[mpharris36]

its not about having the balls to make the decision. It was the bills moving up from 12 to 7 to pick the QB they thought had franchise talent. There is nothing suggesting so far the Giants are tied down to Jones long term that they would pass up on a franchise talent in the QB.

Again the bills were ok with willing to take a slight step back because they identified the franchise QB in the draft and they had the ability to move up and make that pick. The Giants picked 25th in the year Daniel Jones essentially became a FA?

Are you suggesting the Giants find a way from trading up to 25 to #3 to secure themselves Anthony Richardson? Has a team ever been able to jump into the top 5 from the 20's for a QB in history? And the Colts were desperate for a QB as well. HOU and CAR also were going QB 1 and 2 as well.

That is what I am not understanding. The Bills identified the option to pivot away from Taylor via the draft. They had the ability to move up and and took it so they felt comfortable taking a step back with a young QB. Which is reasonable.

I think the closest thing you can compare that too is this offseason where the Giants were in close contact with the Pats...but the Pats also needed a QB. So you can't say the Giants/Schoen weren't trying. We have evidence he called a few hours leading up to the draft he would have moved up if the price wasn't historical (per schoen).

They also clearly didn't identify JJ McCarthy as a franchise QB.

So again if the Giants were to say just pivot from Jones after that playoff year without finding a suitable replacement what were they selling the owner/fan base? The Bills were able to trade up for Allen. I 100% guarantee you if the Giants have identified a franchise QB and had the ability to move up to get one you think they would be like nope we have Daniel Jones we good?

you said this:

I will just say this in Schoen defense. There is absolutely no way after making the playoffs and winning a road playoff game you were going to sell ownership (John Mara) on a full reset. You see him during hard knocks right now...he was having a hard time moving on from Barkley because he was our "most popular player"

all i'm saying is you can do a full reset. the bills found a way to do a full reset when they moved on from tyrod taylor. all schoen needed to identify was that daniel jones was not the QB of the future, it isn't about identifying who was available at 25. i think we can all agree that if we had punted this season and instead had a top 3 pick, we would have picked a QB.

I should have stated that without a viable replacement you can't sell an owner an fanbase on a full reset after making the playoffs and winning a playoff game. Your picking in the mid 20's you have limited cap space from the Dave Gettleman disaster where are you finding a QB to sell the fan base and team?

You identified one situation also where that was the case. Even though I can make an argument both situations weren't the same.

Daniel Jones at the time 25 year old QB
Tyrod Taylor 28 year old QB

Daniel Jones coming off a 3,913 total yard season 22 TD's
Tyrod Taylor coming off a 3,227 total yard season 18 TD's

Daniel Jones won a playoff game that year going 24/35 301 yards 2 TD's, 0 INT's and 78 rushing yards
Tyrod Taylor lost his playoff game that year going 17/37 134 yards 0 TD's 1 INT and 27 rushing yards

They really weren't comparable players. The bills came out of the playoff game realizing Taylor was not going to get them where they needed to go. Jones showed a lot more under Daboll and his system in year 1. So they basically Jones in there eyes went from a 1 year trial QB to at least a bridge QB until they got more information or found a better option long term.

Last year was a disaster but to think it was an "easy" decision after 2022 to just not sign Daniel Jones without having any avenue to replace him doesn't check out with me.

[mpharris36]

You would've had to give up so many picks to move up to draft a QB that year that it would've handicapped your team going forward, like what happened with the Panthers. Or you could've taken Will Levis

In hindsight the move was probably letting Jones walk and just signing a stopgap, but that would've been a difficult sell.

I don't think any team has moved up from the 20's into the top 5. You probably would have had to make multiple trades such as move Andrew Thomas or Dexter Lawrence just to get close to the top 10. And then you still would probably have to trade your next few year 1sts and that is assuming those QB hungry teams want to trade back. Like you said the roster would basically have been a rookie QB with a terrible roster and no picks to supplement it (basically the panthers situations now).

In hindsight it would have been more ideal to just pick up Jones 5th year option but I don't think most wanted to do that at the time because it was still questionable if it was Jones or the situation he was in (new coaches all the time, no skill players, terrible Oline). He kinda shocked everyone by playing so well in the 2022 season especially in that playoff game.

It would have been an extremely hard sell (nearly impossible IMO)...especially with no viable replacement after a season he was a big part in them getting to the division round in the playoffs.

I think we hedged fine, they clearly understand they need a franchise QB per hard knocks. Jones isn't preventing them from going to get that future QB if an opportunity presents itself. This isn't the NBA teams just don't tank. They ended up winning 3 crazy games with Tommy Devito being the QB. They beat GB and Philly late in the year and had a ridiculous poor win vs an also bad pats team 10-7. You lose 2 out of 3 games the Giants are probably picking a QB since they would have bee in the top 2-3 picks.

My whole point is Daniel Jones isn't preventing them from picking there future QB. Unless people think this year he's going to ruin our "tank" which I don't think people who don't like Jones think he can impact winning like that anyway.

[Ghetto Gospel]

its not about having the balls to make the decision. It was the bills moving up from 12 to 7 to pick the QB they thought had franchise talent. There is nothing suggesting so far the Giants are tied down to Jones long term that they would pass up on a franchise talent in the QB.

Again the bills were ok with willing to take a slight step back because they identified the franchise QB in the draft and they had the ability to move up and make that pick. The Giants picked 25th in the year Daniel Jones essentially became a FA?

Are you suggesting the Giants find a way from trading up to 25 to #3 to secure themselves Anthony Richardson? Has a team ever been able to jump into the top 5 from the 20's for a QB in history? And the Colts were desperate for a QB as well. HOU and CAR also were going QB 1 and 2 as well.

That is what I am not understanding. The Bills identified the option to pivot away from Taylor via the draft. They had the ability to move up and and took it so they felt comfortable taking a step back with a young QB. Which is reasonable.

I think the closest thing you can compare that too is this offseason where the Giants were in close contact with the Pats...but the Pats also needed a QB. So you can't say the Giants/Schoen weren't trying. We have evidence he called a few hours leading up to the draft he would have moved up if the price wasn't historical (per schoen).

They also clearly didn't identify JJ McCarthy as a franchise QB.

So again if the Giants were to say just pivot from Jones after that playoff year without finding a suitable replacement what were they selling the owner/fan base? The Bills were able to trade up for Allen. I 100% guarantee you if the Giants have identified a franchise QB and had the ability to move up to get one you think they would be like nope we have Daniel Jones we good?

you said this:

I will just say this in Schoen defense. There is absolutely no way after making the playoffs and winning a road playoff game you were going to sell ownership (John Mara) on a full reset. You see him during hard knocks right now...he was having a hard time moving on from Barkley because he was our "most popular player"

all i'm saying is you can do a full reset. the bills found a way to do a full reset when they moved on from tyrod taylor. all schoen needed to identify was that daniel jones was not the QB of the future, it isn't about identifying who was available at 25. i think we can all agree that if we had punted this season and instead had a top 3 pick, we would have picked a QB.

I should have stated that without a viable replacement you can't sell an owner an fanbase on a full reset after making the playoffs and winning a playoff game. Your picking in the mid 20's you have limited cap space from the Dave Gettleman disaster where are you finding a QB to sell the fan base and team?

You identified one situation also where that was the case. Even though I can make an argument both situations weren't the same.

Daniel Jones at the time 25 year old QB
Tyrod Taylor 28 year old QB

Daniel Jones coming off a 3,913 total yard season 22 TD's
Tyrod Taylor coming off a 3,227 total yard season 18 TD's

Daniel Jones won a playoff game that year going 24/35 301 yards 2 TD's, 0 INT's and 78 rushing yards
Tyrod Taylor lost his playoff game that year going 17/37 134 yards 0 TD's 1 INT and 27 rushing yards

They really weren't comparable players. The bills came out of the playoff game realizing Taylor was not going to get them where they needed to go. Jones showed a lot more under Daboll and his system in year 1. So they basically Jones in there eyes went from a 1 year trial QB to at least a bridge QB until they got more information or found a better option long term.

Last year was a disaster but to think it was an "easy" decision after 2022 to just not sign Daniel Jones without having any avenue to replace him doesn't check out with me.

realistically, there will never be a perfect full comparison, with perfect situations, but we have seen teams move on from QBs that have made the playoffs even after a playoff win recognizing that they're mid.

i do agree that daniel is better than tyrod taylor.

yes, tyrod taylor wasn't good in that playoff game, but i also saw daniel play against the eagles the very next game after beating the vikings and i knew he wasn't going to lead us to the promised land. i think we all knew he wasn't

i'm also not saying it was an "easy" decision, but taking a step back for a year was the right one. i believe at the time i said i was okay with giving daniel a smaller deal that had a more front-loaded cap heavy contract, taking a step back in the 2023-2024 season, so we can build towards the future with a small cap number from daniel. i understand that might be a hard decision to make and isn't necessarily a common contract structure but iirc, brunson took a front-loaded contract and those aren't common in the nba either and it works out great. the 2022-2023 season was very fluky, and many of us on this board saw it for what it was.

signing daniel jones is certainly the conventional approach that most GMs would take, but i don't want a GM that is conventional. i want the smartest guy in the room. i'm okay with not having a great replacement in mind. i think even the vikings this year let kirk cousins walk without necessarily "identifying" a QB. yeah, they drafted jj mccarthy with the 10th pick but he wasn't guaranteed to be there and a team could have traded up to leapfrog them and the vikings could have been stuck with nobody at QB, but they finally understood that boy ain't taking them anywhere and it seemed like they were okay with throwing sam darnold trash ass out there. i view daniel and kirk as the same caliber of player.

[mpharris36]

you said this:



all i'm saying is you can do a full reset. the bills found a way to do a full reset when they moved on from tyrod taylor. all schoen needed to identify was that daniel jones was not the QB of the future, it isn't about identifying who was available at 25. i think we can all agree that if we had punted this season and instead had a top 3 pick, we would have picked a QB.

I should have stated that without a viable replacement you can't sell an owner an fanbase on a full reset after making the playoffs and winning a playoff game. Your picking in the mid 20's you have limited cap space from the Dave Gettleman disaster where are you finding a QB to sell the fan base and team?

You identified one situation also where that was the case. Even though I can make an argument both situations weren't the same.

Daniel Jones at the time 25 year old QB
Tyrod Taylor 28 year old QB

Daniel Jones coming off a 3,913 total yard season 22 TD's
Tyrod Taylor coming off a 3,227 total yard season 18 TD's

Daniel Jones won a playoff game that year going 24/35 301 yards 2 TD's, 0 INT's and 78 rushing yards
Tyrod Taylor lost his playoff game that year going 17/37 134 yards 0 TD's 1 INT and 27 rushing yards

They really weren't comparable players. The bills came out of the playoff game realizing Taylor was not going to get them where they needed to go. Jones showed a lot more under Daboll and his system in year 1. So they basically Jones in there eyes went from a 1 year trial QB to at least a bridge QB until they got more information or found a better option long term.

Last year was a disaster but to think it was an "easy" decision after 2022 to just not sign Daniel Jones without having any avenue to replace him doesn't check out with me.

realistically, there will never be a perfect full comparison, with perfect situations, but we have seen teams move on from QBs that have made the playoffs even after a playoff win recognizing that they're mid.

i do agree that daniel is better than tyrod taylor.

yes, tyrod taylor wasn't good in that playoff game, but i also saw daniel play against the eagles the very next game after beating the vikings and i knew he wasn't going to lead us to the promised land. i think we all knew he wasn't

i'm also not saying it was an "easy" decision, but taking a step back for a year was the right one. i believe at the time i said i was okay with giving daniel a smaller deal that had a more front-loaded cap heavy contract, taking a step back in the 2023-2024 season, so we can build towards the future with a small cap number from daniel. i understand that might be a hard decision to make and isn't necessarily a common contract structure but iirc, brunson took a front-loaded contract and those aren't common in the nba either and it works out great. the 2022-2023 season was very fluky, and many of us on this board saw it for what it was.

signing daniel jones is certainly the conventional approach that most GMs would take, but i don't want a GM that is conventional. i want the smartest guy in the room. i'm okay with not having a great replacement in mind. i think even the vikings this year let kirk cousins walk without necessarily "identifying" a QB. yeah, they drafted jj mccarthy with the 10th pick but he wasn't guaranteed to be there and a team could have traded up to leapfrog them and the vikings could have been stuck with nobody at QB, but they finally understood that boy ain't taking them anywhere and it seemed like they were okay with throwing sam darnold trash ass out there. i view daniel and kirk as the same caliber of player.

I left the Eagles game saying the eagles were far more talented and we shouldn't have been on the field with them. There dline destroyed everything we tried to do before even doing it. Didn't even get a sense other than that tbh.

I don't think you can even say it wasn't an "easy decision" I'm saying its a near impossible sell job to Mara and the NY Giants (who have never went into a season tanking). I assume you have seen hard knocks. Look at tap dancing Schoen had to do to convince Mara they needed to walk away from Barkley. Imagine him saying Hey John...we won a road playoff game but even though Jones had a really strong season we need to walk away from him. Mara goes...who are we replacing him with...and Schoen goes IDK? Don't see that as realistic.

Also Minny traded for an extra 1st round pick to guarantee they were going to get a QB. They were desperately trying to trade up per reports.

The Giants passed on JJ...so they obviously didn't have any conviction he's the guy...so I am glad they are being selective with the process. They also tried to trade up so they clearly are still very much trying to find the future QB. They aren't married to Jones at all. He is basically a bridge QB this year.

[Ghetto Gospel]

I should have stated that without a viable replacement you can't sell an owner an fanbase on a full reset after making the playoffs and winning a playoff game. Your picking in the mid 20's you have limited cap space from the Dave Gettleman disaster where are you finding a QB to sell the fan base and team?

You identified one situation also where that was the case. Even though I can make an argument both situations weren't the same.

Daniel Jones at the time 25 year old QB
Tyrod Taylor 28 year old QB

Daniel Jones coming off a 3,913 total yard season 22 TD's
Tyrod Taylor coming off a 3,227 total yard season 18 TD's

Daniel Jones won a playoff game that year going 24/35 301 yards 2 TD's, 0 INT's and 78 rushing yards
Tyrod Taylor lost his playoff game that year going 17/37 134 yards 0 TD's 1 INT and 27 rushing yards

They really weren't comparable players. The bills came out of the playoff game realizing Taylor was not going to get them where they needed to go. Jones showed a lot more under Daboll and his system in year 1. So they basically Jones in there eyes went from a 1 year trial QB to at least a bridge QB until they got more information or found a better option long term.

Last year was a disaster but to think it was an "easy" decision after 2022 to just not sign Daniel Jones without having any avenue to replace him doesn't check out with me.

realistically, there will never be a perfect full comparison, with perfect situations, but we have seen teams move on from QBs that have made the playoffs even after a playoff win recognizing that they're mid.

i do agree that daniel is better than tyrod taylor.

yes, tyrod taylor wasn't good in that playoff game, but i also saw daniel play against the eagles the very next game after beating the vikings and i knew he wasn't going to lead us to the promised land. i think we all knew he wasn't

i'm also not saying it was an "easy" decision, but taking a step back for a year was the right one. i believe at the time i said i was okay with giving daniel a smaller deal that had a more front-loaded cap heavy contract, taking a step back in the 2023-2024 season, so we can build towards the future with a small cap number from daniel. i understand that might be a hard decision to make and isn't necessarily a common contract structure but iirc, brunson took a front-loaded contract and those aren't common in the nba either and it works out great. the 2022-2023 season was very fluky, and many of us on this board saw it for what it was.

signing daniel jones is certainly the conventional approach that most GMs would take, but i don't want a GM that is conventional. i want the smartest guy in the room. i'm okay with not having a great replacement in mind. i think even the vikings this year let kirk cousins walk without necessarily "identifying" a QB. yeah, they drafted jj mccarthy with the 10th pick but he wasn't guaranteed to be there and a team could have traded up to leapfrog them and the vikings could have been stuck with nobody at QB, but they finally understood that boy ain't taking them anywhere and it seemed like they were okay with throwing sam darnold trash ass out there. i view daniel and kirk as the same caliber of player.

I left the Eagles game saying the eagles were far more talented and we shouldn't have been on the field with them. There dline destroyed everything we tried to do before even doing it. Didn't even get a sense other than that tbh.

I don't think you can even say it wasn't an "easy decision" I'm saying its a near impossible sell job to Mara and the NY Giants (who have never went into a season tanking). I assume you have seen hard knocks. Look at tap dancing Schoen had to do to convince Mara they needed to walk away from Barkley. Imagine him saying Hey John...we won a road playoff game but even though Jones had a really strong season we need to walk away from him. Mara goes...who are we replacing him with...and Schoen goes IDK? Don't see that as realistic.

Also Minny traded for an extra 1st round pick to guarantee they were going to get a QB. They were desperately trying to trade up per reports.

The Giants passed on JJ...so they obviously didn't have any conviction he's the guy...so I am glad they are being selective with the process. They also tried to trade up so they clearly are still very much trying to find the future QB. They aren't married to Jones at all. He is basically a bridge QB this year.

i also saw the talent gap in the eagles game, but i also saw a talent gap at QB.

i also saw mara say something to the effect of: if you think daniel jones is not that guy, and you want to go get that QB go get it, referencing the trade up to get eli. he gave schoen the freedom to make decisions related to the giants QB. obviously, it would have been great to see a couple of years ago, but just because he was a bit reluctant to let barkley go, doesn't mean that he wouldn't allow schoen to do his thing. i think we've seen teams take a step back to take a couple of steps forward. even the patriots during their dynastic years took steps back for a few years to clear cap space to compete again later. the bills are doing it right now. they won a playoff game last year, but this year, they're taking time to clear the books a little bit, to build towards something again later.

with regards to the vikigns being desperate trying to trade up per reports but i'm not 100% convinced. reports can be very misleading, especially seeing how linked jj mccarthy was to us, but watching that hard knocks episode, he wasn't really that HEAVILY considered by the giants front office, although it could have been edited to make it that way. i also noted that during the hard knocks episode, schoen was considering a trade down to the bears for a 3rd and a 4th iirc if nabers wasn't going to be there. a desperate team could easily beat that offer. they easily could have went into the season with sam darnold as starter and frankly i think that's a fine decision if they didn't get jjm. it's okay to take steps back

[mpharris36]

realistically, there will never be a perfect full comparison, with perfect situations, but we have seen teams move on from QBs that have made the playoffs even after a playoff win recognizing that they're mid.

i do agree that daniel is better than tyrod taylor.

yes, tyrod taylor wasn't good in that playoff game, but i also saw daniel play against the eagles the very next game after beating the vikings and i knew he wasn't going to lead us to the promised land. i think we all knew he wasn't

i'm also not saying it was an "easy" decision, but taking a step back for a year was the right one. i believe at the time i said i was okay with giving daniel a smaller deal that had a more front-loaded cap heavy contract, taking a step back in the 2023-2024 season, so we can build towards the future with a small cap number from daniel. i understand that might be a hard decision to make and isn't necessarily a common contract structure but iirc, brunson took a front-loaded contract and those aren't common in the nba either and it works out great. the 2022-2023 season was very fluky, and many of us on this board saw it for what it was.

signing daniel jones is certainly the conventional approach that most GMs would take, but i don't want a GM that is conventional. i want the smartest guy in the room. i'm okay with not having a great replacement in mind. i think even the vikings this year let kirk cousins walk without necessarily "identifying" a QB. yeah, they drafted jj mccarthy with the 10th pick but he wasn't guaranteed to be there and a team could have traded up to leapfrog them and the vikings could have been stuck with nobody at QB, but they finally understood that boy ain't taking them anywhere and it seemed like they were okay with throwing sam darnold trash ass out there. i view daniel and kirk as the same caliber of player.

I left the Eagles game saying the eagles were far more talented and we shouldn't have been on the field with them. There dline destroyed everything we tried to do before even doing it. Didn't even get a sense other than that tbh.

I don't think you can even say it wasn't an "easy decision" I'm saying its a near impossible sell job to Mara and the NY Giants (who have never went into a season tanking). I assume you have seen hard knocks. Look at tap dancing Schoen had to do to convince Mara they needed to walk away from Barkley. Imagine him saying Hey John...we won a road playoff game but even though Jones had a really strong season we need to walk away from him. Mara goes...who are we replacing him with...and Schoen goes IDK? Don't see that as realistic.

Also Minny traded for an extra 1st round pick to guarantee they were going to get a QB. They were desperately trying to trade up per reports.

The Giants passed on JJ...so they obviously didn't have any conviction he's the guy...so I am glad they are being selective with the process. They also tried to trade up so they clearly are still very much trying to find the future QB. They aren't married to Jones at all. He is basically a bridge QB this year.

i also saw the talent gap in the eagles game, but i also saw a talent gap at QB.

i also saw mara say something to the effect of: if you think daniel jones is not that guy, and you want to go get that QB go get it, referencing the trade up to get eli. he gave schoen the freedom to make decisions related to the giants QB. obviously, it would have been great to see a couple of years ago, but just because he was a bit reluctant to let barkley go, doesn't mean that he wouldn't allow schoen to do his thing. i think we've seen teams take a step back to take a couple of steps forward. even the patriots during their dynastic years took steps back for a few years to clear cap space to compete again later. the bills are doing it right now. they won a playoff game last year, but this year, they're taking time to clear the books a little bit, to build towards something again later.

with regards to the vikigns being desperate trying to trade up per reports but i'm not 100% convinced. reports can be very misleading, especially seeing how linked jj mccarthy was to us, but watching that hard knocks episode, he wasn't really that HEAVILY considered by the giants front office, although it could have been edited to make it that way. i also noted that during the hard knocks episode, schoen was considering a trade down to the bears for a 3rd and a 4th iirc if nabers wasn't going to be there. a desperate team could easily beat that offer. they easily could have went into the season with sam darnold as starter and frankly i think that's a fine decision if they didn't get jjm. it's okay to take steps back

But that wasn't after we had a 10 win season and made the Division round in the playoffs...that was after a bad year where DJ had poor season along with neck and ACL injury. Compeltely different situations...i don't think he would have been open to moving on)

We also had the 6th pick in the draft....rather than the 25th...completely different scenarios to go get a future QB and sell your owner and fan base.

Schoen isn't a dummy, if anything Hard Knocks should tell you he is very modern with his thinking. He knows if you don't have a good QB your team isn't going anywhere and weighed not wanting to pick that high again but when you are picking high you have to evaluate the QB's.

It just happened that the worst 3 teams all needed QB's. I am happy we didn't reach to get a QB we didn't have conviction on. They clearly had conviction on Jayden Daniels and to a lesser extent Drake Maye but enough to at least exchange trades that got somewhat serious with. But you gotta have two to tango.

Again as I said...Daniel Jones isn't preventing the Giants from getting there franchise QB if they go through the process and feel like a player is the right guy.