Magic Sign G Jalen Suggs to a 5 year, 150.5M Contract Extension

[Skybox]

Getting KCP at $22M per year has really helped the Magic's negotiating position here

Similar player, similar stats, 76, 76 and 77 games played each of the last few seasons for KCP as opposed to, what 50ish on average for Suggs?

Suggs has his first good, consistent season in his career in, surprise surprise, his contract year.

Yawn

Seen this story before

Lol

That's been true of other players, but complete BS here...he's improved dramatically each year. Doesn't mean he's going to continue that but your comment implies he "woke up" for the money - which isn't who he is.

[zaymon]

It should be under 24M.
KCP got 22M and he is better and in his prime.
Players of Suggs skill set doesnt get close to max contracts.
Caruso got 10 and he is better than Suggs.
White got 30 but his first extension was 15 and he was much better than Suggs.
Danny Green biggest salary was 15M and he was a menace defensively and good shooter.

I love Suggs, want him on the team but he is shaky ball handler, still undisciplined defender and streaky shooter. We overpay him and we will need to trade someone else soon.

[SOUL]

It should be under 24M.
KCP got 22M and he is better and in his prime.
Players of Suggs skill set doesnt get close to max contracts.
Caruso got 10 and he is better than Suggs.
White got 30 but his first extension was 15 and he was much better than Suggs.
Danny Green biggest salary was 15M and he was a menace defensively and good shooter.

I love Suggs, want him on the team but he is shaky ball handler, still undisciplined defender and streaky shooter. We overpay him and we will need to trade someone else soon.

You are comparing all sorts of things and it's not really connected though.

Caruso is 30 years old now - 8 years older, and he's probably arguably the same tier right now. Suggs win shares and VORP this season are better than every single previous Caruso season ever. It wasn't until his 29-30 age that Caruso is a similar player in value as a player that finished his age 22-23 year in Suggs.

White got his first "big" contract at age 25, at a different salary point, and did not make all defense until age 29. It wasn't until his 27-29 years that Derrick White had higher win shares than Suggs produced this year, at age 22.

KCP is interesting because he has never had higher defensive advanced stats than Suggs produced this last season, but he's been solid both on offense and defense his whole career. Again though, win shares produced this year from Suggs would slot in tied for KCP's third best season, at age 30.

So you're comparing a bunch of contracts from years ago, and from guys that peaked 5-8 years later as players, at least in the case of White and Caruso. You have to look at cap percentage too when comparing to previous years, and also realize teams pay for potential as much as they do past. If you don't pay them, someone else will offer it. They can certainly negotiate with him and not just pay him what he demands, but this is an entirely new system if you 're trying to compare it to the past.

The biggest thing work against Suggs is obviously replicating this since he only has a one year sample size of really good play. If this is the worst he'll look in the next 5 years (which would be amazing), it's a complete steal whatever we pay him. If this is the best he'll look, then it obviously won't be a great contract.

[Knightro]

What Suggs *should* get and what Suggs is going to get aren't going to be the same thing.

He should get around 15% of the salary cap. Like 24-25M AAV.

He's probably going to be around 20% of the salary cap. Like 32-33M AAV.

[RichCollab]

What Suggs *should* get and what Suggs is going to get aren't going to be the same thing.

He should get around 15% of the salary cap. Like 24-25M AAV.

He's probably going to be around 20% of the salary cap. Like 32-33M AAV.

Ultimately I’m ok with 5 years for 150 million. The salary cap will increase each of the next 4 years given the new TV deal.

[VFX]

I laugh at some of this back and forth because some of you have been watching the Orlando Magic for your entire lives and still don’t understand the market of this organization or how they must operate.

The Magic are going to retain Suggs. He is a rfa coming off a season where he was voted both top 10 defensively and a MIP league-wide at 23. Go back and read that sentence again. Last season wasn’t his contract year. This season is.

If you are Orlando’s FO you are negotiating his agent down with the implication in mind that you can’t pay him max but you know he’s getting 15-20% of the salary cap. How his contract is structured will matter the most with the rising cap.

Suggs’ detractors aren’t going to be happy when he gets paid. Casuals that don’t watch Orlando, and only look at box scores, will think he is likely overpaid. HOWEVER, this team’s success is heavily influenced by him defensively. He isn’t some empty stats guy like Jalen Green who you can easily replace in your system. You are going to pay a player if they are heavily influencing whether you are winning basketball games.

Suggs is 23 and he’s going to get paid. The alternative in your mind doesn’t exist. Orlando’s biggest signing in a decade plus was Kentavius Caldwell-Pope. A guy who was largely a complete nobody for 9 years before landing in Denver and playing next to an MVP. Oh yeah, and this Front Office never trades anybody.

It’s not like Suggs is Zach Lavine where he isn’t integral to winning basketball games and undeserving of getting a bag. I’m much more concerned with a guy like Franz getting paid a max. Why? Because those players have to be the best of the best compared with other max guys. The difference is that Orlando doesn’t have a million other options otherwise. You pay these guys now and move them later if they don’t work out 100%. If Suggs gives Orlando 2-3 more seasons of what he just did in 2023-24, then he’s absolutely worth the money.

[drsd]

Weltman confirmed the two sides were talking and went so far as to say they were trying to "get it across the finish line" during an interview he gave during summer league.

And-1

Another thing I loved about that presser is Weltman's comments on Suggs' agent. I can't recall if it was "Suggs has a really tough agent" or "Suggs has a really good agent". But either way it is clear that management realizes that Suggs has real bargaining chips in these negotiations, and they are being used effectively!

[drsd]

What Suggs *should* get and what Suggs is going to get aren't going to be the same thing.

He should get around 15% of the salary cap. Like 24-25M AAV.

He's probably going to be around 20% of the salary cap. Like 32-33M AAV.

100% on this thought line. And ....

If you are Orlando’s FO you are negotiating his agent down with the implication in mind that you can’t pay him max but you know he’s getting 15-20% of the salary cap. How his contract is structured will matter the most with the rising cap.

... this is 100% the point for me. I am again reminded by Gordon's contact extension. It started high but was flat from there.

Suggs contract won't be flat, or V, and it certainly won't be declining. But if it is a 3% increase each year, then after 4 or 5 years, the cap relative to the contract will take a 20% deal down to a 15% deal. That must be what management is after.

Also: it is not that management could front-load Suggs extension. It kicks in after a year. The team's payroll will already be at the cap, no matter what Suggs gets extended by. All of this contact negotiations must certainly be purely about "annual growth".

Banchero gets his max extension next year, meaning that in the 2026/27 season, the Magic will have nearly 80% of their cap tied in to three players. That needs to soften from the years that follow that season.

[zaymon]

It should be under 24M.
KCP got 22M and he is better and in his prime.
Players of Suggs skill set doesnt get close to max contracts.
Caruso got 10 and he is better than Suggs.
White got 30 but his first extension was 15 and he was much better than Suggs.
Danny Green biggest salary was 15M and he was a menace defensively and good shooter.

I love Suggs, want him on the team but he is shaky ball handler, still undisciplined defender and streaky shooter. We overpay him and we will need to trade someone else soon.

You are comparing all sorts of things and it's not really connected though.

Caruso is 30 years old now - 8 years older, and he's probably arguably the same tier right now. Suggs win shares and VORP this season are better than every single previous Caruso season ever. It wasn't until his 29-30 age that Caruso is a similar player in value as a player that finished his age 22-23 year in Suggs.

White got his first "big" contract at age 25, at a different salary point, and did not make all defense until age 29. It wasn't until his 27-29 years that Derrick White had higher win shares than Suggs produced this year, at age 22.

KCP is interesting because he has never had higher defensive advanced stats than Suggs produced this last season, but he's been solid both on offense and defense his whole career. Again though, win shares produced this year from Suggs would slot in tied for KCP's third best season, at age 30.

So you're comparing a bunch of contracts from years ago, and from guys that peaked 5-8 years later as players, at least in the case of White and Caruso. You have to look at cap percentage too when comparing to previous years, and also realize teams pay for potential as much as they do past. If you don't pay them, someone else will offer it. They can certainly negotiate with him and not just pay him what he demands, but this is an entirely new system if you 're trying to compare it to the past.

The biggest thing work against Suggs is obviously replicating this since he only has a one year sample size of really good play. If this is the worst he'll look in the next 5 years (which would be amazing), it's a complete steal whatever we pay him. If this is the best he'll look, then it obviously won't be a great contract.

I am not comparing all sort of things, i am comparing players who fill his role on other teams in the present or in the past. Suggs is often our last offensive option nad his shooting is still nothing certain. Those kind of players doesnt get paid unless its a bonus for winning a championship or at least conference finals.
I have no idea why you compared VORP and win shares, what you want to prove ? That Suggs was better than Fultz and Cole Anthony or that we won mostly becouse of Suggs ? I am not saying he wasnt involved, but even his defense is a little bit overrated. In clutch he made many silly mistakes which costed us games like faul on Garland or Young in the regular season. He also couldnt stop Mitchell in the playoffs. Franz was much better defending him, same as Jrue Holiday.
Its funny that i was one of the only posters defending Suggs in the past and now when he became "cool" i look like a hater

[basketballRob]

I remember Weltman saying they were working on an extension and that Suggs had good agents. What he probably wanted to say is that his agents are being unreasonable.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

Why does no one bring up the point that he was pick 4 and Franz was 8?

Wouldn't that at least affect his contract?...

Also, his camp is certainly thinking abut it.

[basketballRob]

Why does no one bring up the point that he was pick 4 and Franz was 8?

Wouldn't that at least affect his contract?...

Also, his camp is certainly thinking abut it.

He was the 5th pick. I think the 5th pick has historically been slightly better than the 8th pick, but not much.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/5th-nba-overall-draft-picks

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/8th-nba-overall-draft-picks

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[tiderulz]

Why does no one bring up the point that he was pick 4 and Franz was 8?

Wouldn't that at least affect his contract?...

Also, his camp is certainly thinking abut it.

i think that only matters with your rookie deal. after that, its based on the cap, not what you had on your rookie deal.

[SOUL]

I have no idea why you compared VORP and win shares, what you want to prove ? That Suggs was better than Fultz and Cole Anthony or that we won mostly becouse of Suggs ? I am not saying he wasnt involved, but even his defense is a little bit overrated. In clutch he made many silly mistakes which costed us games like faul on Garland or Young in the regular season. He also couldnt stop Mitchell in the playoffs. Franz was much better defending him, same as Jrue Holiday.

He's absolutely not a perfect player at all, but that's how negotiations are started from agent/player side versus team side. If the Magic came at them, for instance, repeating the players you mentioned, that's how they would probably counter - that Suggs' play last season was better or on par with anything (or compatible to them now) they've done while being 5-8 years younger, and that he is just scratching the surface of his potential.

I think a lot of fans think it's like "You did this so far, we're going to pay you for how your play was thus far".

[Residual-Heat]

I dont think he gets less than 30 mill/yr. Im still a believer in his potential, I think he's got a lot more room for growth offensively.

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

Why does no one bring up the point that he was pick 4 and Franz was 8?

Wouldn't that at least affect his contract?...

Also, his camp is certainly thinking abut it.

He was the 5th pick. I think the 5th pick has historically been slightly better than the 8th pick, but not much.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/5th-nba-overall-draft-picks

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/8th-nba-overall-draft-picks

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Dang, my bad. I guess I remember him supposed to go 4th then, to Toronto.

[anothermagicfan]

What Suggs as the 5th pick has done compared to Franz as the 8th pick only matters in the context of they're respective NBA play for the magic, not where they were picked.

I'm a big fan of both guys. Suggs has established the possibility for a great career with Orlando. Franz and PB are both very reasonably on pace to be top 3 scorers in Orlando Magic history. We're talking a very select group of magicians-dwight, Shaq, Tmac and Penny. For context purposes if Franz replicates in his 4th season what he's done in his first 3 seasons he should be right around 10th place all-time magic scorers. If PB replicates in his 3rd season what he's done in his first 2 seasons he'll be around the 15th highest scorer in magic history.

That doesn't compare them to the greatest of NBA elites, but as for us magic fans it puts them in another category for the magic.

Franz and PB are both on pace to be top 10 in magic history for assists in the next 2 seasons.

Suggs is on pace to be in the top 5 in magic history over the next 3 seasons in steals. It's not like Franz and PB are bad in that counting stat category either.


1-PB has put himself in a territory of the magic elite comparable to our previous first options - Shaq, Tmac and Dwight

2-franz has established himself as a damned good second option in comparable magic history.

Magic all-time scoring leaders
#16 Rashard lewis- 4,194 points over 4 seasons in 257 games
#17 Franz Wagner -4103 points over 3 seasons in 231 games played.

This isn't an argument for either player. It's an argument for all 3. PB, Franz and Suggs are all needed for this group of magicians to bring home a title. It's about surrounding those 3 with the right group to put us over the top someday

[pepe1991]

I have no idea why you compared VORP and win shares, what you want to prove ? That Suggs was better than Fultz and Cole Anthony or that we won mostly becouse of Suggs ? I am not saying he wasnt involved, but even his defense is a little bit overrated. In clutch he made many silly mistakes which costed us games like faul on Garland or Young in the regular season. He also couldnt stop Mitchell in the playoffs. Franz was much better defending him, same as Jrue Holiday.

He's absolutely not a perfect player at all, but that's how negotiations are started from agent/player side versus team side. If the Magic came at them, for instance, repeating the players you mentioned, that's how they would probably counter - that Suggs' play last season was better or on par with anything (or compatible to them now) they've done while being 5-8 years younger, and that he is just scratching the surface of his potential.

I think a lot of fans think it's like "You did this so far, we're going to pay you for how your play was thus far".

But there is also argument that paying him on his 3rd year only isn't really what he has been for 3/3rd of his time with Magic.

Year one was just brutal, he was injuried and terrible on court.
In year two he was also injuried but more reliable.
In year three he was banged up but played through some injuries and his 3 point shot held. But didn't held up in playoffs.

During all this he never displayed any advanced offensive skills other than ability to shoot off catch in 3rd season, during regular season.

Some perspective needs to be added. Guy is 11,2 ppg, 3,2 apg player. In his best year he was 12,6 ppg, 2,7 apg, 3,1 rpg guy with 60% TS and 1,0 BPM. Non of this sounds like player that should be getting max nor anything close to max, because he simply isn't that good.

MM talks about second all defensive team/ MIP votes, Herbert Jones did the same and signed 4 years $54M contract.
Deni Avdija, right before season where he was ranked better than Suggs in MIP voting, signed 4 years $55M contract.
Grayson Allen, who does similar things to Suggs, signed 4 years $70M contract.

People bring Jaden McDaniels but Jaden is what 6'10- 200 pounds, low usage SF-PF who plays his role, people like him are harder to find than 6'4 defensive guards who can hit open jumpers, because size in basketball matters.

It would be complete instanity to throw max contract ( or anything near that) on role player. Who are they bidding against? He is RFA, in "worst case" he will have breakout year and earn max. In more realistic scenario, he will be overworked as ballhandler, something he already failed to be, and get payed whatever is acceptable by his menager and front office.
Not to mention next season will bring some clarity about his durability. Again, in 2 out of 3 years he was incapable of playing 50 games because his playstyle isn't very sustainable nor helps longjevity.

Last thing Magic need is to be in new Jonathan Isaac situation, where you pay guy based on feeling and over whole lenght of his contract you just watch him play dressup with tuxedo suits.

I personally find contracts like OG's new contract as madnass decisions. To me it feels like self sabotage and "Biyombo, Mozgov, and Mahinmi " decisions, where GMs overplay their hands, thinking new lucrative salary will make those contracts look better ( or less bad). There is no reason why anybody should pay role player 25% of cap. It's just something that will come to bite you in a** sooner or later.

[Skybox]

I have no idea why you compared VORP and win shares, what you want to prove ? That Suggs was better than Fultz and Cole Anthony or that we won mostly becouse of Suggs ? I am not saying he wasnt involved, but even his defense is a little bit overrated. In clutch he made many silly mistakes which costed us games like faul on Garland or Young in the regular season. He also couldnt stop Mitchell in the playoffs. Franz was much better defending him, same as Jrue Holiday.

He's absolutely not a perfect player at all, but that's how negotiations are started from agent/player side versus team side. If the Magic came at them, for instance, repeating the players you mentioned, that's how they would probably counter - that Suggs' play last season was better or on par with anything (or compatible to them now) they've done while being 5-8 years younger, and that he is just scratching the surface of his potential.

I think a lot of fans think it's like "You did this so far, we're going to pay you for how your play was thus far".

But there is also argument that paying him on his 3rd year only isn't really what he has been for 3/3rd of his time with Magic.

Year one was just brutal, he was injuried and terrible on court.
In year two he was also injuried but more reliable.
In year three he was banged up but played through some injuries and his 3 point shot held. But didn't held up in playoffs.

During all this he never displayed any advanced offensive skills other than ability to shoot off catch in 3rd season, during regular season.

Some perspective needs to be added. Guy is 11,2 ppg, 3,2 apg player. In his best year he was 12,6 ppg, 2,7 apg, 3,1 rpg guy with 60% TS and 1,0 BPM. Non of this sounds like player that should be getting max nor anything close to max, because he simply isn't that good.

MM talks about second all defensive team/ MIP votes, Herbert Jones did the same and signed 4 years $54M contract.
Deni Avdija, right before season where he was ranked better than Suggs in MIP voting, signed 4 years $55M contract.
Grayson Allen, who does similar things to Suggs, signed 4 years $70M contract.

People bring Jaden McDaniels but Jaden is what 6'10- 200 pounds, low usage SF-PF who plays his role, people like him are harder to find than 6'4 defensive guards who can hit open jumpers, because size in basketball matters.

It would be complete instanity to throw max contract ( or anything near that) on role player. Who are they bidding against? He is RFA, in "worst case" he will have breakout year and earn max. In more realistic scenario, he will be overworked as ballhandler, something he already failed to be, and get payed whatever is acceptable by his menager and front office.
Not to mention next season will bring some clarity about his durability. Again, in 2 out of 3 years he was incapable of playing 50 games because his playstyle isn't very sustainable nor helps longjevity.

Last thing Magic need is to be in new Jonathan Isaac situation, where you pay guy based on feeling and over whole lenght of his contract you just watch him play dressup with tuxedo suits.

I personally find contracts like OG's new contract as madnass decisions. To me it feels like self sabotage and "Biyombo, Mozgov, and Mahinmi " decisions, where GMs overplay their hands, thinking new lucrative salary will make those contracts look better ( or less bad). There is no reason why anybody should pay role player 25% of cap. It's just something that will come to bite you in a** sooner or later.

Agree…a lot of very good players become “negative value” guys once they get the wrong deal. Wiggins, Tobias, Lavine, etc…you can say all you want about their alleged “impact on winning” but part of that might be their contract’s impact on building a winning team. I love Suggs and what he brings, but like Caruso (imo) the mythical status he’s been awarded already by some is a dangerous and limiting precedent…I’m not saying he won’t be a star, but he’s not yet and shouldn’t be paid that way just in case he becomes one. I think it makes a lot of sense, especially for Suggs’ camp to decline an extension for now…the way he works and his arc of improvement so far suggests that he may well be in a different stratosphere this time next year…and the FO didn’t make any moves that are likely to limit his opportunities to show as much development as he can.

[VFX]

I have no idea why you compared VORP and win shares, what you want to prove ? That Suggs was better than Fultz and Cole Anthony or that we won mostly becouse of Suggs ? I am not saying he wasnt involved, but even his defense is a little bit overrated. In clutch he made many silly mistakes which costed us games like faul on Garland or Young in the regular season. He also couldnt stop Mitchell in the playoffs. Franz was much better defending him, same as Jrue Holiday.

He's absolutely not a perfect player at all, but that's how negotiations are started from agent/player side versus team side. If the Magic came at them, for instance, repeating the players you mentioned, that's how they would probably counter - that Suggs' play last season was better or on par with anything (or compatible to them now) they've done while being 5-8 years younger, and that he is just scratching the surface of his potential.

I think a lot of fans think it's like "You did this so far, we're going to pay you for how your play was thus far".

But there is also argument that paying him on his 3rd year only isn't really what he has been for 3/3rd of his time with Magic.

Year one was just brutal, he was injuried and terrible on court.
In year two he was also injuried but more reliable.
In year three he was banged up but played through some injuries and his 3 point shot held. But didn't held up in playoffs.

During all this he never displayed any advanced offensive skills other than ability to shoot off catch in 3rd season, during regular season.

Some perspective needs to be added. Guy is 11,2 ppg, 3,2 apg player. In his best year he was 12,6 ppg, 2,7 apg, 3,1 rpg guy with 60% TS and 1,0 BPM. Non of this sounds like player that should be getting max nor anything close to max, because he simply isn't that good.

MM talks about second all defensive team/ MIP votes, Herbert Jones did the same and signed 4 years $54M contract.
Deni Avdija, right before season where he was ranked better than Suggs in MIP voting, signed 4 years $55M contract.
Grayson Allen, who does similar things to Suggs, signed 4 years $70M contract.

People bring Jaden McDaniels but Jaden is what 6'10- 200 pounds, low usage SF-PF who plays his role, people like him are harder to find than 6'4 defensive guards who can hit open jumpers, because size in basketball matters.

It would be complete instanity to throw max contract ( or anything near that) on role player. Who are they bidding against? He is RFA, in "worst case" he will have breakout year and earn max. In more realistic scenario, he will be overworked as ballhandler, something he already failed to be, and get payed whatever is acceptable by his menager and front office.
Not to mention next season will bring some clarity about his durability. Again, in 2 out of 3 years he was incapable of playing 50 games because his playstyle isn't very sustainable nor helps longjevity.

Last thing Magic need is to be in new Jonathan Isaac situation, where you pay guy based on feeling and over whole lenght of his contract you just watch him play dressup with tuxedo suits.

I personally find contracts like OG's new contract as madnass decisions. To me it feels like self sabotage and "Biyombo, Mozgov, and Mahinmi " decisions, where GMs overplay their hands, thinking new lucrative salary will make those contracts look better ( or less bad). There is no reason why anybody should pay role player 25% of cap. It's just something that will come to bite you in a** sooner or later.

Yeah, I think again the takeaway is how integral certain players are to what your team’s identity happens to be.

Draymond Green makes a zillion dollars with the Warriors because he is a huge part of their system. He is probably an average starter or role player on any other team because hes a system guy that doesn’t translate everywhere. This is why they would sooner let Klay walk.

Jaden McDaniels has the positional versatility that Suggs doesn’t at 6’10. He still has to make sense in their system to justify paying him that contract amount as their 4th/5th option on offense.

If Orlando wasn’t toward the top of the league defensively, and winning most games because of it, then people wouldn’t need to make an argument that Suggs doesn’t need to get paid X amount of money. It’s the same argument for Denver wanting to keep KCP relative to what he does for them.

This is kinda why I don’t necessarily like the JI signing in a vacuum because he plays the same exact position as the guy that needs to be on floor for 90% of the time to win games. It’s just a stupid use of money if there weren’t contract stipulations. Suggs, Paolo, and Franz are the guys you pay. You fill the rest of the roster with guys that compliment them. The FO still hasn’t done that.

Yeah, I agree that Suggs shouldn’t get max, or anything really close to it. They have a strong argument for a good contract though because of top 10 defense and MIP voting last season. That’s not really an opinion. It’s the leverage they have. I don’t get the rookie year argument people keep parroting. Nobody pays players for their rookie year. They pay for progression and their latest season if they are still under a rookie contract.