2024 Paris Olympics General (non-Basketball/Track & Field) Discussion Thread

[Statlanta]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

[G R E Y]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

If only it didn't replace women athletes or put them in danger then yeah it would hilarious.

[bisme37]

Has anyone seen the sportscaster Maria Taylor on any of the NBC broadcasts?

It just popped in my head how she was doing ESPN's NBA coverage a few years ago and had that drama with Rachel Nichols or whatever it was and left for a big contract at NBC Sports.

Now it's the big moment of NBC sports and they are paying her a bunch of money but I haven't seen her at all. But maybe I just haven't happened to watch whatever sport she's covering or something?

This concludes my random post of this thing that just popped in my head.

[Nuntius]

I liked the creativity and concept in general, but there were parts that were distasteful. That was one of them.

It was wildly offensive to an entire religion. And completely unnecessary

To me it's less about the offense, but more the audacity to think that's what the average viewer wants or cares about. It's visually offensive and just unappealing to most of us. Drag belongs on the fringes, where it can be subversive and strange and that's great... the opening ceremony of the Olympics? Out of touch.

An opening ceremony is not about what the average North American viewer wants or cares about. An opening ceremony is about representing the host country's and host city's culture. And, yes, both fashion shows and drag are a thing for Paris. Ever heard of Montmarte? There are cabarets hosting drag shows there ever since the 50s.

[Nuntius]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

If only it didn't replace women athletes or put them in danger then yeah it would hilarious.

Replace women athletes? Imane Khelif IS a woman athlete even by the most conservative definition.

[Nuntius]

These rugby games are FIRE!! France vs Fiji was a show.

Rugby 7s is fun. It's just a shame that it was so early in the Olympic calendar that it's almost already over.

I watched the opening ceremony and turned on the games the next morning (PST) to get France v Fiji Gold Medal Match. I was like "wtf!? did I sleep for a week?"

Yep. A couple of sports started on the 24th, two days before the opening ceremony. Football started in the 24th as well. The difference here is that Rugby 7s played 2 games a day. They are mental

[G R E Y]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

If only it didn't replace women athletes or put them in danger then yeah it would hilarious.

Replace women athletes? Imane Khelif IS a woman athlete even by the most conservative definition.

I was speaking beyond Olympics competitions and the numerous instances of women missing podiums and money to men in various sports.

But the prospective danger here is glaring enough to focus on.

[Nuntius]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

Just to clarify here. When you hear the term "gender test" in the Olympics what it essentially means is hormone testing for testosterone levels. That's the test that the boxer in question, Imane Khelif, failed. Her testosterone levels were simply higher than the allowed threshold when she was tested last year. Since she is competing now, it's logical to assume that her testosterone levels are within the allowed threshold this year.

[Nuntius]

If only it didn't replace women athletes or put them in danger then yeah it would hilarious.

Replace women athletes? Imane Khelif IS a woman athlete even by the most conservative definition.

I was speaking beyond Olympics competitions and the numerous instances of women missing podiums and money to men in various sports.

But the prospective danger here is glaring enough to focus on.

If that's what you were speaking about then explain your post that started this discussion:

This is infuriating, shameful, and flat out **** dangerous. Has no place in fairness in sport but IOC has instructed commentators to not be addressing it.

Read on Twitter

You posted a tweet that was specifically talking about Imane Khelif. Imane Khelif was assigned female at birth ->

https://misbar.com/en/factcheck/2023/08/03/the-algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-is-not-transsexual

She is a woman by every freaking definition in the book. Why are you trying to drag another woman through the mud to push a political agenda?

Seriously, G R E Y. You've been trying to spin a political yarn ever since this thread started. You are now posting tweets from TERF accounts that are attacking the very same people who they are supposed to try and protect (AFAB, cisgender women like Imane Khelif).

We can agree to disagree when it comes to differences of opinion but you gotta stop attacking people

[WarriorGM]

To me it's less about the offense, but more the audacity to think that's what the average viewer wants or cares about. It's visually offensive and just unappealing to most of us. Drag belongs on the fringes, where it can be subversive and strange and that's great... the opening ceremony of the Olympics? Out of touch.

Did you say "audacity"?

There was one article that came out before the opening ceremony describing what the Paris Olympics were going for and it quoted Danton's "De l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace" (Audacity, more audacity, always audacity).

The London games had a part about the NHS.

[SonicMcMahon]

It was wildly offensive to an entire religion. And completely unnecessary

To me it's less about the offense, but more the audacity to think that's what the average viewer wants or cares about. It's visually offensive and just unappealing to most of us. Drag belongs on the fringes, where it can be subversive and strange and that's great... the opening ceremony of the Olympics? Out of touch.

An opening ceremony is not about what the average North American viewer wants or cares about. An opening ceremony is about representing the host country's and host city's culture. And, yes, both fashion shows and drag are a thing for Paris. Ever heard of Montmarte? There are cabarets hosting drag shows there ever since the 50s.

And they were fringe elements of the society, not marched out by the French powers that be. That's what made them fun and subversive.

[G R E Y]

Replace women athletes? Imane Khelif IS a woman athlete even by the most conservative definition.

I was speaking beyond Olympics competitions and the numerous instances of women missing podiums and money to men in various sports.

But the prospective danger here is glaring enough to focus on.

If that's what you were speaking about then explain your post that started this discussion:

This is infuriating, shameful, and flat out **** dangerous. Has no place in fairness in sport but IOC has instructed commentators to not be addressing it.

Read on Twitter

You posted a tweet that was specifically talking about Imane Khelif. Imane Khelif was assigned female at birth ->

https://misbar.com/en/factcheck/2023/08/03/the-algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-is-not-transsexual

She is a woman by every freaking definition in the book. Why are you trying to drag another woman through the mud to push a political agenda?

Seriously, G R E Y. You've been trying to spin a political yarn ever since this thread started. You are now posting tweets from TERF accounts that are attacking the very same people who they are supposed to try and protect (AFAB, cisgender women like Imane Khelif).

We can agree to disagree when it comes to differences of opinion but you gotta stop attacking people

I'm not spinning anything, let alone political. And that's rich coming from someone using the newspeak for basic sex differences.

As to the name, I got the Italian boxer's name with that of the Algerian one. It's late. It happens.

As it also happens, Imane Khelif didn't just fail a testosterone test but the XX one

Kremlev said that IBA executives had met towards the championship’s grand finale to discuss “fairness among athletes and professionalism,” after concerns were raised about the biological sex of some participants. He added that after “a series of DNA-tests,” the IBA “uncovered athletes who were trying to fool their colleagues and pretend to be women.”

Speaking to TASS News, Kremlev claimed that the tests had proven the athletes in question “had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from the sports events.”

https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

So no it is not a true statement that Khelif is a woman by every freaking definition in the book.

The average man's punch is about 150% harder than a woman's. Women's bone density is less than those of men. Put. Those. Together.

The list of men in women's sports is egregious and growing. I'm not **** having any of it about having a hard time identifying. Cheek swab. Participate in the sport of your born sex. That's fair. And safe.

[Nuntius]

To me it's less about the offense, but more the audacity to think that's what the average viewer wants or cares about. It's visually offensive and just unappealing to most of us. Drag belongs on the fringes, where it can be subversive and strange and that's great... the opening ceremony of the Olympics? Out of touch.

An opening ceremony is not about what the average North American viewer wants or cares about. An opening ceremony is about representing the host country's and host city's culture. And, yes, both fashion shows and drag are a thing for Paris. Ever heard of Montmarte? There are cabarets hosting drag shows there ever since the 50s.

And they were fringe elements of the society, not marched out by the French powers that be. That's what made them fun and subversive.

Right and the director of the opening ceremony was very clear about wanting the ceremony to show the world what Paris actually is. He wanted to show the underground, he wanted to show the fringes. He didn't want to showcase just the stuff that tourists see, he wanted to showcase every inch of Parisian life. It's the same exact reason why this was the first time that a metal band appeared in an Olympic ceremony.

None of it was "marched out by the French powers that be". It was all the work of an artistic director who wanted to showcase the city's culture.

[Nuntius]

I was speaking beyond Olympics competitions and the numerous instances of women missing podiums and money to men in various sports.

But the prospective danger here is glaring enough to focus on.

If that's what you were speaking about then explain your post that started this discussion:

This is infuriating, shameful, and flat out **** dangerous. Has no place in fairness in sport but IOC has instructed commentators to not be addressing it.

Read on Twitter

You posted a tweet that was specifically talking about Imane Khelif. Imane Khelif was assigned female at birth ->

https://misbar.com/en/factcheck/2023/08/03/the-algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-is-not-transsexual

She is a woman by every freaking definition in the book. Why are you trying to drag another woman through the mud to push a political agenda?

Seriously, G R E Y. You've been trying to spin a political yarn ever since this thread started. You are now posting tweets from TERF accounts that are attacking the very same people who they are supposed to try and protect (AFAB, cisgender women like Imane Khelif).

We can agree to disagree when it comes to differences of opinion but you gotta stop attacking people

I'm not spinning anything, let alone political. And that's rich coming from someone using the newspeak for basic sex differences.

1) You are absolutely spinning a political yarn here. That is why you're using biased sources, after all.

2) Since when is using terminology "newspeak"? Do you deem everything you disagree with as "newspeak"?

As to the name, I got the Italian boxer's name with that of the Algerian one. It's late. It happens.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here.

As it also happens, Imane Khelif didn't just fail a testosterone test but the XX one

Kremlev said that IBA executives had met towards the championship’s grand finale to discuss “fairness among athletes and professionalism,” after concerns were raised about the biological sex of some participants. He added that after “a series of DNA-tests,” the IBA “uncovered athletes who were trying to fool their colleagues and pretend to be women.”

Speaking to TASS News, Kremlev claimed that the tests had proven the athletes in question “had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from the sports events.”

https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

So no it is not a true statement that Khelif is a woman by every freaking definition in the book.

The average man's punch is about 150% harder than a woman's. Women's bone density is less than those of men. Put. Those. Together.

The list of men in women's sports is egregious and growing. I'm not **** having any of it about having a hard time identifying. Cheek swab. Participate in the sport of your born sex. That's fair. And safe.

The problem here is the source you're using, Reddux.com, is a biased source. The founder and editor of the site, as well as the author of the specific article you posted, Anna Slatz, is not just an anti-trans activist, she is also affiliated with far-right groups. She worked for Rebel News, a Canadian far-right media website, and when she was editor-in-chief for her university newspaper, she interviewed the leader of a neo-Nazi group and published an op-ed that said neo-Nazi leader wrote. And when I say neo-Nazi, I'm not trying to exaggerate here. The group in question is literally called the National Socialist Canadian Labour Revival Party. The Nazi part is literally in the group's name.

So, yeah. I'm sorry but I'm not going to take her claims seriously. Based on everything I've read so far, Imane Khelif was born a woman, failed a test due to high testosterone levels and ever since then transphobes have been dragging her through the mud to advance their political agenda.

[G R E Y]

If that's what you were speaking about then explain your post that started this discussion:



You posted a tweet that was specifically talking about Imane Khelif. Imane Khelif was assigned female at birth ->

https://misbar.com/en/factcheck/2023/08/03/the-algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-is-not-transsexual

She is a woman by every freaking definition in the book. Why are you trying to drag another woman through the mud to push a political agenda?

Seriously, G R E Y. You've been trying to spin a political yarn ever since this thread started. You are now posting tweets from TERF accounts that are attacking the very same people who they are supposed to try and protect (AFAB, cisgender women like Imane Khelif).

We can agree to disagree when it comes to differences of opinion but you gotta stop attacking people

I'm not spinning anything, let alone political. And that's rich coming from someone using the newspeak for basic sex differences.

1) You are absolutely spinning a political yarn here. That is why you're using biased sources, after all.

2) Since when is using terminology "newspeak"? Do you deem everything you disagree with as "newspeak"?

As to the name, I got the Italian boxer's name with that of the Algerian one. It's late. It happens.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here.

As it also happens, Imane Khelif didn't just fail a testosterone test but the XX one

Kremlev said that IBA executives had met towards the championship’s grand finale to discuss “fairness among athletes and professionalism,” after concerns were raised about the biological sex of some participants. He added that after “a series of DNA-tests,” the IBA “uncovered athletes who were trying to fool their colleagues and pretend to be women.”

Speaking to TASS News, Kremlev claimed that the tests had proven the athletes in question “had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from the sports events.”

https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

So no it is not a true statement that Khelif is a woman by every freaking definition in the book.

The average man's punch is about 150% harder than a woman's. Women's bone density is less than those of men. Put. Those. Together.

The list of men in women's sports is egregious and growing. I'm not **** having any of it about having a hard time identifying. Cheek swab. Participate in the sport of your born sex. That's fair. And safe.

The problem here is the source you're using, Reddux.com, is a biased source. The founder and editor of the site, as well as the author of the specific article you posted, Anna Slatz, is not just an anti-trans activist, she is also affiliated with far-right groups. She worked for Rebel News, a Canadian far-right media website, and when she was editor-in-chief for her university newspaper, she interviewed the leader of a neo-Nazi group and published an op-ed that said neo-Nazi leader wrote. And when I say neo-Nazi, I'm not trying to exaggerate here. The group in question is literally called the National Socialist Canadian Labour Revival Party. The Nazi part is literally in the group's name.

So, yeah. I'm sorry but I'm not going to take her claims seriously. Based on everything I've read so far, Imane Khelif was born a woman, failed a test due to high testosterone levels and ever since then transphobes have been dragging her through the mud to advance their political agenda.

How about sticking to what the IBF findings were, hence the initial ban of the 2 boxers. If they can't be refuted then I guess the means of the message has to be focused on.

And you're ignoring the broader point of men in women's sports, and potential risk to women in boxing.

I support the protection of sex based rights, spaces, and services for women and girls. Don't care what anyone identifies as, it's their business, so long as those boundaries are adhered to. And so I repeat. Cheek swab. Participate in the sport of your born sex. It is fair. And safe.

[Fencer reregistered]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

It used to be a real question. I think there were some East Bloc athletes whose sex is disputed to this day.

I haven't read the thread to see if the current discussion distorts it -- but yes, along with a lot of issues about doping (including with testosterone), the possibility of outright gender dishonesty was occasionally raised by what seemed to be non-crackpots.

[mattg]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

It used to be a real question. I think there were some East Bloc athletes whose sex is disputed to this day.

I haven't read the thread to see if the current discussion distorts it -- but yes, along with a lot of issues about doping (including with testosterone), the possibility of outright gender dishonesty was occasionally raised by what seemed to be non-crackpots.

Just look at particular women's world records in track. Specifically the 400m, 800m, and the 4x400 and 4x800 relays.

You could make arguments for field events that have those Soviet era WRs too.

Not so much disputed sex of the athletes, but some of those women were juiced to the gills and wouldn't come close to passing a gender test today.

[Fencer reregistered]

I have never even heard of a gender test or even the possibility of failing one lol.

Thanks GREY for the laughs.

It used to be a real question. I think there were some East Bloc athletes whose sex is disputed to this day.

I haven't read the thread to see if the current discussion distorts it -- but yes, along with a lot of issues about doping (including with testosterone), the possibility of outright gender dishonesty was occasionally raised by what seemed to be non-crackpots.

Just look at particular women's world records in track. Specifically the 400m, 800m, and the 4x400 and 4x800 relays.

You could make arguments for field events that have those Soviet era WRs too.

Not so much disputed sex of the athletes, but some of those women were juiced to the gills and wouldn't come close to passing a gender test today.

Drug test, gender test, or both?

[Nuntius]

I'm not spinning anything, let alone political. And that's rich coming from someone using the newspeak for basic sex differences.

1) You are absolutely spinning a political yarn here. That is why you're using biased sources, after all.

2) Since when is using terminology "newspeak"? Do you deem everything you disagree with as "newspeak"?

As to the name, I got the Italian boxer's name with that of the Algerian one. It's late. It happens.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here.

As it also happens, Imane Khelif didn't just fail a testosterone test but the XX one



https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

So no it is not a true statement that Khelif is a woman by every freaking definition in the book.

The average man's punch is about 150% harder than a woman's. Women's bone density is less than those of men. Put. Those. Together.

The list of men in women's sports is egregious and growing. I'm not **** having any of it about having a hard time identifying. Cheek swab. Participate in the sport of your born sex. That's fair. And safe.

The problem here is the source you're using, Reddux.com, is a biased source. The founder and editor of the site, as well as the author of the specific article you posted, Anna Slatz, is not just an anti-trans activist, she is also affiliated with far-right groups. She worked for Rebel News, a Canadian far-right media website, and when she was editor-in-chief for her university newspaper, she interviewed the leader of a neo-Nazi group and published an op-ed that said neo-Nazi leader wrote. And when I say neo-Nazi, I'm not trying to exaggerate here. The group in question is literally called the National Socialist Canadian Labour Revival Party. The Nazi part is literally in the group's name.

So, yeah. I'm sorry but I'm not going to take her claims seriously. Based on everything I've read so far, Imane Khelif was born a woman, failed a test due to high testosterone levels and ever since then transphobes have been dragging her through the mud to advance their political agenda.

How about sticking to what the IBF findings were, hence the initial ban of the 2 boxers. If they can't be refuted then I guess the means of the message has to be focused on.

The reason why I'm attacking the source, Reduxx.com, is that the source is being untruthful about what they're reporting. The article you posted claims that Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting were disqualified for having XY chromosomes, right?

That's the central claim of the article and that is also the basis of your argument for Imane Khelif not being a woman.

So, does that article on Reduxx.com posts the source for the claim they're making about Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting being disqualified for having XY chromosomes?

The source of the claim seems to be Umar Kremlev, the president of the IBA, but most of the links from his interview seem to be from Russia Today and since I live in the EU, I cannot access any RT article. There is an article from another website that seems to carry this quote, though:

По результатам ДНК-тестов мы выявили ряд спортсменов, которые пытались обмануть своих коллег и выдавали себя за женщин. По результатам тестов было доказано, что они имеют XY-хромосомы. Такие спортсмены были исключены из соревнований", - сказал Кремлев.

In this quote, Kremlev does indeed talk about a number of athletes being proven to have XY chromosomes. He doesn't say that all the athletes who were disqualified had XY chromosomes, though. Just that a number of them did. It is not really clear that Imane Khelif, the boxer in question, was one of those athletes that were disqualified for having XY chromosomes.

The Algerian Olympic Committee, for example, claims that Khelif was disqualified for medical reasons and Algerian media reported that she was disqualified for high level of testosterone in her system ->

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/two-disqualified-failing-meet-eligibility-criteria-world-champs-2023-03-26/

The Algerian Olympic Committee said Khelif was disqualified for "medical reasons" and that it would support her preparation for the African qualification tournament for next year's Paris Olympics.

Algerian media reported Khelif was disqualified for high level of testosterone in her system.

There are two disputing claims here. Reduxx.com is choosing to take one of the two claims as the truth and just runs with it, writing the whole article based on this disputed claim.

As a related aside, the IBA is not currently recognized by the IOC. The IOC suspended its recognition of the IBA back in 2019 -> https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-iba-not-in-position-to-run-qualifying-events-and-boxing-competitions-for-paris-2024

As a result, the IBA has been barred from running and organizing boxing events in the last two Olympics (Tokyo 2020 and Paris 2024).

From the IOC article posted above:

The various IOC concerns around the governance of the IBA, including the refereeing and judging process and its financial dependency on the state-owned company Gazprom, are still ongoing.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) announced on 14 June 2022 that the decision of the IBA Interim Nominations Unit, which had deemed the presidential candidate Boris van der Vorst and three other electoral candidates ineligible for election the day prior to the scheduled IBA elections, had been overturned. The CAS arbitrator accepted the request that they be reinstated as eligible candidates. Furthermore, the CAS stated that Umar Kremlev had committed the same rule violation yet had been admitted to the election as the sole candidate.

Here's also a Washington Post article about the whole situation with the IBA:

https://archive.ph/20221006152632/https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2022/09/27/umar-kremlev-russia-olympic-boxing/

Boxing’s Olympic future remains very much in doubt after members of the sport’s governing body, the International Boxing Association (IBA) voted against holding a presidential election last weekend, reaffirming the leadership of its controversial president, Umar Kremlev.

Though Kremlev has promised to reform the IBA, he has alarmed IOC officials by moving much of the organization’s operations from Lausanne, Switzerland to Russia, has spent heavily on marketing that appeared to promote himself and has resisted calls for an outside organization to handle the assignment of judges and referees at events. The IOC has also expressed worry that the IBA’s lone sponsor is Russian energy company Gazprom, which has supported Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

So, yeah. Kremlev doesn't appear that clean either. There is probably a reason why his interview seemed to be mostly available on Russia Today. But that is a separate discussion.

And you're ignoring the broader point of men in women's sports, and potential risk to women in boxing.

I support the protection of sex based rights, spaces, and services for women and girls. Don't care what anyone identifies as, it's their business, so long as those boundaries are adhered to. And so I repeat. Cheek swab. Participate in the sport of your born sex. It is fair. And safe.

Right, so let me ask you this. Imane Khelif has lived her entire life as a woman. Her born sex is female. That is the conclusion I've reached based on everything I've read about her. If she is indeed one of those athletes that were disqualified due to having XY chromosomes then that would mean that she's an intersex woman. Much like Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba, Margaret Wambui and others. All of these athletes have lived their whole lives as women. They were born women and they were raised as women. They have never been men. If you say that you care about the protection of women then you ought to care about their protection as well. If your point is that people "should participate in the sport of their born sex" then all them should participate as women since that is their born sex.

And, of course, all the above is only valid if the article's assumption that Khelif does indeed have XY chromosomes is, in fact, accurate. If it's not accurate and they're just pushing this because it fits their political agenda, then they have simply victimized another woman for political gain. And you have helped spread this victimization in this forum, by the way.

[mattg]

It used to be a real question. I think there were some East Bloc athletes whose sex is disputed to this day.

I haven't read the thread to see if the current discussion distorts it -- but yes, along with a lot of issues about doping (including with testosterone), the possibility of outright gender dishonesty was occasionally raised by what seemed to be non-crackpots.

Just look at particular women's world records in track. Specifically the 400m, 800m, and the 4x400 and 4x800 relays.

You could make arguments for field events that have those Soviet era WRs too.

Not so much disputed sex of the athletes, but some of those women were juiced to the gills and wouldn't come close to passing a gender test today.

Drug test, gender test, or both?

Well zero chance they'd pass a drug test of any kind lol. Those Soviet era athletes were dosed up on testosterone, likely growth hormone, and multiple anabolics. Just blatant doping. It'd shock me if a gender test on some of those athletes didn't flag them for elevated levels too.