Nuntius wrote:G R E Y wrote:Nuntius wrote:
1) You are absolutely spinning a political yarn here. That is why you're using biased sources, after all.
2) Since when is using terminology "newspeak"? Do you deem everything you disagree with as "newspeak"?
Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here.
The problem here is the source you're using, Reddux.com, is a biased source. The founder and editor of the site, as well as the author of the specific article you posted, Anna Slatz, is not just an anti-trans activist, she is also affiliated with far-right groups. She worked for Rebel News, a Canadian far-right media website, and when she was editor-in-chief for her university newspaper, she interviewed the leader of a neo-Nazi group and published an op-ed that said neo-Nazi leader wrote. And when I say neo-Nazi, I'm not trying to exaggerate here. The group in question is literally called the National Socialist Canadian Labour Revival Party. The Nazi part is literally in the group's name.
So, yeah. I'm sorry but I'm not going to take her claims seriously. Based on everything I've read so far, Imane Khelif was born a woman, failed a test due to high testosterone levels and ever since then transphobes have been dragging her through the mud to advance their political agenda.
How about sticking to what the IBF findings were, hence the initial ban of the 2 boxers. If they can't be refuted then I guess the means of the message has to be focused on.
The reason why I'm attacking the source, Reduxx.com, is that the source is being untruthful about what they're reporting. The article you posted claims that Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting were disqualified for having XY chromosomes, right?
That's the central claim of the article and that is also the basis of your argument for Imane Khelif not being a woman.
So, does that article on Reduxx.com posts the source for the claim they're making about Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting being disqualified for having XY chromosomes?
The source of the claim seems to be Umar Kremlev, the president of the IBA, but most of the links from his interview seem to be from Russia Today and since I live in the EU, I cannot access any RT article. There is an article from another website that seems to carry this quote, though:По результатам ДНК-тестов мы выявили ряд спортсменов, которые пытались обмануть своих коллег и выдавали себя за женщин. По результатам тестов было доказано, что они имеют XY-хромосомы. Такие спортсмены были исключены из соревнований", - сказал Кремлев.
In this quote, Kremlev does indeed talk about a number of athletes being proven to have XY chromosomes. He doesn't say that all the athletes who were disqualified had XY chromosomes, though. Just that a number of them did. It is not really clear that Imane Khelif, the boxer in question, was one of those athletes that were disqualified for having XY chromosomes.
The Algerian Olympic Committee, for example, claims that Khelif was disqualified for medical reasons and Algerian media reported that she was disqualified for high level of testosterone in her system ->
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/two-disqualified-failing-meet-eligibility-criteria-world-champs-2023-03-26/The Algerian Olympic Committee said Khelif was disqualified for "medical reasons" and that it would support her preparation for the African qualification tournament for next year's Paris Olympics.
Algerian media reported Khelif was disqualified for high level of testosterone in her system.
There are two disputing claims here. Reduxx.com is choosing to take one of the two claims as the truth and just runs with it, writing the whole article based on this disputed claim.
As a related aside, the IBA is not currently recognized by the IOC. The IOC suspended its recognition of the IBA back in 2019 -> https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-iba-not-in-position-to-run-qualifying-events-and-boxing-competitions-for-paris-2024
As a result, the IBA has been barred from running and organizing boxing events in the last two Olympics (Tokyo 2020 and Paris 2024).
From the IOC article posted above:The various IOC concerns around the governance of the IBA, including the refereeing and judging process and its financial dependency on the state-owned company Gazprom, are still ongoing.
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) announced on 14 June 2022 that the decision of the IBA Interim Nominations Unit, which had deemed the presidential candidate Boris van der Vorst and three other electoral candidates ineligible for election the day prior to the scheduled IBA elections, had been overturned. The CAS arbitrator accepted the request that they be reinstated as eligible candidates. Furthermore, the CAS stated that Umar Kremlev had committed the same rule violation yet had been admitted to the election as the sole candidate.
Here's also a Washington Post article about the whole situation with the IBA:
https://archive.ph/20221006152632/https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2022/09/27/umar-kremlev-russia-olympic-boxing/Boxing’s Olympic future remains very much in doubt after members of the sport’s governing body, the International Boxing Association (IBA) voted against holding a presidential election last weekend, reaffirming the leadership of its controversial president, Umar Kremlev.Though Kremlev has promised to reform the IBA, he has alarmed IOC officials by moving much of the organization’s operations from Lausanne, Switzerland to Russia, has spent heavily on marketing that appeared to promote himself and has resisted calls for an outside organization to handle the assignment of judges and referees at events. The IOC has also expressed worry that the IBA’s lone sponsor is Russian energy company Gazprom, which has supported Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
So, yeah. Kremlev doesn't appear that clean either. There is probably a reason why his interview seemed to be mostly available on Russia Today. But that is a separate discussion.G R E Y wrote:And you're ignoring the broader point of men in women's sports, and potential risk to women in boxing.
I support the protection of sex based rights, spaces, and services for women and girls. Don't care what anyone identifies as, it's their business, so long as those boundaries are adhered to. And so I repeat. Cheek swab. Participate in the sport of your born sex. It is fair. And safe.
Right, so let me ask you this. Imane Khelif has lived her entire life as a woman. Her born sex is female. That is the conclusion I've reached based on everything I've read about her. If she is indeed one of those athletes that were disqualified due to having XY chromosomes then that would mean that she's an intersex woman. Much like Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba, Margaret Wambui and others. All of these athletes have lived their whole lives as women. They were born women and they were raised as women. They have never been men. If you say that you care about the protection of women then you ought to care about their protection as well. If your point is that people "should participate in the sport of their born sex" then all them should participate as women since that is their born sex.
And, of course, all the above is only valid if the article's assumption that Khelif does indeed have XY chromosomes is, in fact, accurate. If it's not accurate and they're just pushing this because it fits their political agenda, then they have simply victimized another woman for political gain. And you have helped spread this victimization in this forum, by the way.
If you can't verify Khelif's XX then you shouldn't accuse me of victimization. The victims here are the women who have lost podium spots, records, monies, scholarships, and Olympic spots to men who are allowed to compete with them.
Just because you're satisfied with your own conclusion about Khelif based on everything you've read and chosen to disqualify a test done to show XY doesn't mean we should take it as a given.
Here are some other sources who doubt Khalif's eligibility:
IOC stopped doing simple sex-verification cheek swabs in I think 2000. This could all be clarified easily.
So too would any controversy about Semenya, about whom you are giving false information. Not sure if you are aware, but:
Again. Simple cheek swab. Compete in the category of your born sex. This is fair. And safe.
