Lakers interested in Brown

[YogurtProducer]

Why was keeping him bad?

What salary ramifications did it cause? Was there some other type of deals available that we could have done that were significant and realistic enough to outweigh what "might" happen down the line this season?

Depends on their goals. They'd be an objectively better team without Bruce and with Gary, if winning games was of interest to them.

They'd probably also be an objectively better team if they'd gotten in on some of the 20M+ FAs that were available with the cap room they could have had.

If they are just planning to lose, they could likely have leveraged that cap room to take on salary and some mediocre draft assets. Which feels like the absolute ceiling of a Brown trade outcome at this point.

But I'm glad they at least have him as a real trade chip in this scenario, versus creating a scenario where they had no additional benefit and also less control over being able to trade him.

The thing you're missing is that no other team operates this way, there are no other teams picking up option years of mediocre players on overpay contracts just to use them as a possible trade chips. It's incredible that Masai is allowed to operate this way, I'm amazed the bean counters at MLSE haven't had him assassinated yet for lighting tens of millions of dollars on fire for no reason (Lowry/Dragic trade which could have been done at the deadline to get off Dragic's money right away, picking up Thad Young's option year just to keep him for a trade, now paying Bruce Brown tens of millions he isn't worth). A few simple moves could have saved MLSE a big pile of money, I do wonder if this kind of behaviour will catch up to Masai once his contract is up for renewal in a couple of years.

... yes there is? How do you think FVV got paid? How did Bruce Brown get that deal in first place? JJ Redick in Philly a few years back (not to be traded, but an inflated deal for cap shenanigans).

[docholliday99]

Heck, Trent this year could have got MLE type money but his agent advised him wrongly. I don't think we offered him 15M, was there some info I missed? If so my bad.

I get it, he is a specialized player, but other players with his skills make MLE. He was a victim of this year's CBA changes.

All good, there's so much stuff flying around. If to be believed, this was on the table before the gates opened and it was turned down - or GTJ just wanted to go to a team that's contending and not rebuilding. Either way, he landed on a great team with a great opportunity to make some of the money he let go leaving the Raptors.

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[mihaic]

Heck, Trent this year could have got MLE type money but his agent advised him wrongly. I don't think we offered him 15M, was there some info I missed? If so my bad.

I get it, he is a specialized player, but other players with his skills make MLE. He was a victim of this year's CBA changes.

All good, there's so much stuff flying around. If to be believed, this was on the table before the gates opened and it was turned done - or GTJ just wanted to go to a team that's contending and not rebuilding. Either way, he landed on a great team with a great opportunity to make some of the money he let go leaving the Raptors.

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I didn't see this report.

Well I am glad we didn't get him, given where we are now. I'd rather have the current flexibility under the lux tax. We could absorb a lux tax team's expiring + cash + pick(s), and we will be better off.

I wonder if the offer was only there before the Brown option was picked. I don’t think there was room for both.

[ciueli]

Depends on their goals. They'd be an objectively better team without Bruce and with Gary, if winning games was of interest to them.

They'd probably also be an objectively better team if they'd gotten in on some of the 20M+ FAs that were available with the cap room they could have had.

If they are just planning to lose, they could likely have leveraged that cap room to take on salary and some mediocre draft assets. Which feels like the absolute ceiling of a Brown trade outcome at this point.

But I'm glad they at least have him as a real trade chip in this scenario, versus creating a scenario where they had no additional benefit and also less control over being able to trade him.

The thing you're missing is that no other team operates this way, there are no other teams picking up option years of mediocre players on overpay contracts just to use them as a possible trade chips. It's incredible that Masai is allowed to operate this way, I'm amazed the bean counters at MLSE haven't had him assassinated yet for lighting tens of millions of dollars on fire for no reason (Lowry/Dragic trade which could have been done at the deadline to get off Dragic's money right away, picking up Thad Young's option year just to keep him for a trade, now paying Bruce Brown tens of millions he isn't worth). A few simple moves could have saved MLSE a big pile of money, I do wonder if this kind of behaviour will catch up to Masai once his contract is up for renewal in a couple of years.

... yes there is? How do you think FVV got paid? How did Bruce Brown get that deal in first place? JJ Redick in Philly a few years back (not to be traded, but an inflated deal for cap shenanigans).

Next time actually read my post. Bruce Brown is not worth $23M on the open market, the Raptors did not need to pay him that much because it was a team option. The examples you gave are nothing like this situation.

[ciueli]

Gosh I've never seen someone advocate for a team to try to save money when they are already operating under the tax consistently. Weird.

The idea that Masai might lose his job because the Raps aren't making enough money is absolutely wild to me.

Teams make decisions on player contracts to save money all the time in the NBA, the NBA is a business, why else would MLSE keep increasing ticket prices? Why else is the luxury tax effectively a hard cap for this franchise? We've been under the tax but we've been right at it for years with zero financial flexibility, that means missing out on deals where we could have taken on salary for future benefit, finally we saw the first move of this type at the draft but we could have been doing things like this years ago if it wasn't for poor decisions like the Dragic trade.

The real story here is that Masai is desperate to get this team into the playoffs in at least one of the next two seasons, his contract is up in 2026 I believe and that's why he didn't trade Jakob like he should have, he doesn't want this team to be bad, he knows he's gone in two years if his record is one playoff appearance in 6 years and counting.

This team should be tanking this year, most NBA teams would take that approach to build the asset base but not us because we have to make the playoffs to make MLSE more cash from playoff games and to get Masai his new contract in 2026. It's all short term thinking at the expense of the long term, I don't like it and I don't see it ending well.

[PushDaRock]

Why was keeping him bad?

What salary ramifications did it cause? Was there some other type of deals available that we could have done that were significant and realistic enough to outweigh what "might" happen down the line this season?

Depends on their goals. They'd be an objectively better team without Bruce and with Gary, if winning games was of interest to them.

They'd probably also be an objectively better team if they'd gotten in on some of the 20M+ FAs that were available with the cap room they could have had.

If they are just planning to lose, they could likely have leveraged that cap room to take on salary and some mediocre draft assets. Which feels like the absolute ceiling of a Brown trade outcome at this point.

But I'm glad they at least have him as a real trade chip in this scenario, versus creating a scenario where they had no additional benefit and also less control over being able to trade him.

The thing you're missing is that no other team operates this way, there are no other teams picking up option years of mediocre players on overpay contracts just to use them as a possible trade chips. It's incredible that Masai is allowed to operate this way, I'm amazed the bean counters at MLSE haven't had him assassinated yet for lighting tens of millions of dollars on fire for no reason (Lowry/Dragic trade which could have been done at the deadline to get off Dragic's money right away, picking up Thad Young's option year just to keep him for a trade, now paying Bruce Brown tens of millions he isn't worth). A few simple moves could have saved MLSE a big pile of money, I do wonder if this kind of behaviour will catch up to Masai once his contract is up for renewal in a couple of years.

lmao are you seriously advocating to help save MLSE money?

[ciueli]

Depends on their goals. They'd be an objectively better team without Bruce and with Gary, if winning games was of interest to them.

They'd probably also be an objectively better team if they'd gotten in on some of the 20M+ FAs that were available with the cap room they could have had.

If they are just planning to lose, they could likely have leveraged that cap room to take on salary and some mediocre draft assets. Which feels like the absolute ceiling of a Brown trade outcome at this point.

But I'm glad they at least have him as a real trade chip in this scenario, versus creating a scenario where they had no additional benefit and also less control over being able to trade him.

The thing you're missing is that no other team operates this way, there are no other teams picking up option years of mediocre players on overpay contracts just to use them as a possible trade chips. It's incredible that Masai is allowed to operate this way, I'm amazed the bean counters at MLSE haven't had him assassinated yet for lighting tens of millions of dollars on fire for no reason (Lowry/Dragic trade which could have been done at the deadline to get off Dragic's money right away, picking up Thad Young's option year just to keep him for a trade, now paying Bruce Brown tens of millions he isn't worth). A few simple moves could have saved MLSE a big pile of money, I do wonder if this kind of behaviour will catch up to Masai once his contract is up for renewal in a couple of years.

lmao are you seriously advocating to help save MLSE money?

Read my last post and it makes sense, we've been riding the tax line for years and haven't had the ability to make certain moves or take advantage of teams that want to dump salary. This offseason was the first time he did anything like that in a long time and posters here think it's one of the best moves Masai has made in years (the Kings trade for Davion Mitchell).

[PushDaRock]

The thing you're missing is that no other team operates this way, there are no other teams picking up option years of mediocre players on overpay contracts just to use them as a possible trade chips. It's incredible that Masai is allowed to operate this way, I'm amazed the bean counters at MLSE haven't had him assassinated yet for lighting tens of millions of dollars on fire for no reason (Lowry/Dragic trade which could have been done at the deadline to get off Dragic's money right away, picking up Thad Young's option year just to keep him for a trade, now paying Bruce Brown tens of millions he isn't worth). A few simple moves could have saved MLSE a big pile of money, I do wonder if this kind of behaviour will catch up to Masai once his contract is up for renewal in a couple of years.

lmao are you seriously advocating to help save MLSE money?

Read my last post and it makes sense, we've been riding the tax line for years and haven't had the ability to make certain moves or take advantage of teams that want to dump salary. This offseason was the first time he did anything like that in a long time and posters here think it's one of the best moves Masai has made in years (the Kings trade for Davion Mitchell).

Yeah, I'm just not overly enthused at getting something like a 2031 pick swap to take on 2 years of Harrison Barnes so I don't really think having that 20m in cap space would be superior to having Brown and access to the MLE.

[docholliday99]

Next time actually read my post. Bruce Brown is not worth $23M on the open market, the Raptors did not need to pay him that much because it was a team option. The examples you gave are nothing like this situation.

Brown on his own, in relation to his salary amount, is not commensurate value - I think we all agree on that. In this case though, Brown's expiring salary amount, coupled with his proven contributions on a contender, is the true value in a possible trade - most likely to an apron team or as a 3rd team. I think if the team wanted to use cap space to bring someone in on term that they felt could add to the core, they would have. I also think that if they wanted to use cap space for crappy contract with an asset, they would have as well - and not like the market was hot in this area, I can't think of a team that really came out ahead this offseason selling large portions of cap space.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Did they? Pretty sure they got two seconds and almost 7 mil of cap space for mcDaniels.

What does that have to do with BB ?

It has to do with the second apron. As if you needed my clarification for that one. Plus, there’s a whole offseason yet to happen, never mind a season and a trade deadline.

I mean is trading for bruce browns 23 million going to help with salary relief? Maybe but then we end up with a long term black hole contract. Perhaps that is the kind of deal we're looking to initiate here though, I don't really know much about the GMing part of basketball (or the other parts).

[dhackett1565]

Would they be? Is Gary better than Bruce? I would say probably not - and if there is any difference in GTJ's favor it is entirely immaterial

Simply renouncing Brown would not have given us $20M of cap room as far as I understand. It was a not "Brown at $23M" or "FA @ 20M"

Maybe - but also maybe not. There is also the legitimate chance some contender at the deadline convinces themselves Brown is the missing piece and gives us a decent deal for him.

If Bruce is a wildly better player than last year, I buy this argument. If not, there is truly no comparison between the two players.

Yes, the Raptors would have had about 20M in cap room sans Bruce. That being near the size of his contract is coincidence. I'd hope I would have developed some small level of reputation to be trusted on stuff like that at this point.

There is of course some theoretical chance a contender takes a chance on Brown at the deadline. But there was such a chance last deadline, at the draft, and during FA when there was more cap flexibility, and each time there were zero acceptable trade offers. So I won't be holding my breath on a good return.

[mihaic]

Would they be? Is Gary better than Bruce? I would say probably not - and if there is any difference in GTJ's favor it is entirely immaterial

Simply renouncing Brown would not have given us $20M of cap room as far as I understand. It was a not "Brown at $23M" or "FA @ 20M"

Maybe - but also maybe not. There is also the legitimate chance some contender at the deadline convinces themselves Brown is the missing piece and gives us a decent deal for him.

If Bruce is a wildly better player than last year, I buy this argument. If not, there is truly no comparison between the two players.

Yes, the Raptors would have had about 20M in cap room sans Bruce. That being near the size of his contract is coincidence. I'd hope I would have developed some small level of reputation to be trusted on stuff like that at this point.

There is of course some theoretical chance a contender takes a chance on Brown at the deadline. But there was such a chance last deadline, at the draft, and during FA when there was more cap flexibility, and each time there were zero acceptable trade offers. So I won't be holding my breath on a good return.

You are right, I counted, we would've had 20m to spend for FA if we signed someone between july 1st and signing IQ. Who did we miss on, actually? Someone to use along Scottie, and young enough? (Honest question, not sure who we should've/ could've signed for 20M)

In any case we would have not had the MLE in that case. Before we say they failed (which the may have) we have to remember they have till Feb. to perhaps trade Brown and/or use MLE for an asset. Preferably expiry plus pick. The failure cannot even be declared as it will not be realized till trade deadline.

I suppose they kicked the can down the road. Again. It's frustrating but typical. Perhaps they didn't have any FA target, who knows, but that's the most plausible reason I can think of.

Edit: perhaps they do not want to get some 20M role player longer term now, due to Scottie extension kicking in next year, while they may think Scottie is not ready yet for playoffs.

[Thaddy]

He was downright awful last season have you guys seen his on/off stats? OnCourt -15.8 and On-Off -12.1, and he shot 25% from the corner three.

There is no way he is that bad again. I would rank him as a below average starter on most teams but he could shine like he belongs if we put him in the right situation. I would probably see if he can use his size as a SG next to Barrett. We would have a poor shooting starting line up but it will force Barrett and Barnes to take shots they should be get better at.

I don't think he's our blue chip expiring either. That title should go to Boucher, he costs half as much and he can bring rim protection, energy, and some stretch ability.

[YogurtProducer]

Would they be? Is Gary better than Bruce? I would say probably not - and if there is any difference in GTJ's favor it is entirely immaterial

Simply renouncing Brown would not have given us $20M of cap room as far as I understand. It was a not "Brown at $23M" or "FA @ 20M"

Maybe - but also maybe not. There is also the legitimate chance some contender at the deadline convinces themselves Brown is the missing piece and gives us a decent deal for him.

If Bruce is a wildly better player than last year, I buy this argument. If not, there is truly no comparison between the two players.

Yes, the Raptors would have had about 20M in cap room sans Bruce. That being near the size of his contract is coincidence. I'd hope I would have developed some small level of reputation to be trusted on stuff like that at this point.

There is of course some theoretical chance a contender takes a chance on Brown at the deadline. But there was such a chance last deadline, at the draft, and during FA when there was more cap flexibility, and each time there were zero acceptable trade offers. So I won't be holding my breath on a good return.

brown is pretty easily a better player than GTJ. Maybe not a better fit for us, but he certainly is better at everything on an NBA floor sans shooting.

He can defend, playmaker, create, cut, etc. better than GTJ.

[dhackett1565]

You are right, I counted, we would've had 20m to spend for FA if we signed someone between july 1st and signing IQ. Who did we miss on, actually? Someone to use along Scottie, and young enough? (Honest question, not sure who we should've/ could've signed for 20M)

In any case we would have not had the MLE in that case. Before we say they failed (which the may have) we have to remember they have till Feb. to perhaps trade Brown and/or use MLE for an asset. Preferably expiry plus pick. The failure cannot even be declared as it will not be realized till trade deadline.

I suppose they kicked the can down the road. Again. It's frustrating but typical. Perhaps they didn't have any FA target, who knows, but that's the most plausible reason I can think of.

Edit: perhaps they do not want to get some 20M role player longer term now, due to Scottie extension kicking in next year, while they may think Scottie is not ready yet for playoffs.

Exactly who they used cap room on is up for debate. A Pat Williams offer sheet, for example. But also there would have been opportunities to add draft assets by taking on salary - even without taking on much term if that was their concern. And they wouldn't have the full MLE on top of the cap room but they would have had the room MLE (on top of the cap room), which is not nearly so big a drop off from the full MLE as say the tax MLE is (full = 12.8M; tax = 5.2M; room = 8M), and is still useful for trades like the full MLE is.

I don't think I'd call it kicking the can. They won't have another cap room opportunity for years. It's more passing up that opportunity in favour of whatever they manage to turn Brown into.

[dhackett1565]

brown is pretty easily a better player than GTJ. Maybe not a better fit for us, but he certainly is better at everything on an NBA floor sans shooting.

He can defend, playmaker, create, cut, etc. better than GTJ.

I mean you can say this but last year it was not true. Brown was pretty awful defensively while he was here, definitely didn't create any meaningful offence - basically any catch all or impact number rated Gary higher than him (PER, WS, BPM, EPM, etc). Like I said, hopefully he's a wildly different player from last year.

And the point kind of stands anyway even if we buy that (I don't), because the value of shooting on a team with Scottie as the star and Jak as the C is pretty high, so Gary is of more value to us than Brown in terms of actually generating wins even if Brown is much better this year and is as good as Gary was last year.

[docholliday99]

brown is pretty easily a better player than GTJ. Maybe not a better fit for us, but he certainly is better at everything on an NBA floor sans shooting.

He can defend, playmaker, create, cut, etc. better than GTJ.

I mean you can say this but last year it was not true. Brown was pretty awful defensively while he was here, definitely didn't create any meaningful offence - basically any catch all or impact number rated Gary higher than him (PER, WS, BPM, EPM, etc). Like I said, hopefully he's a wildly different player from last year.

And the point kind of stands anyway even if we buy that (I don't), because the value of shooting on a team with Scottie as the star and Jak as the C is pretty high, so Gary is of more value to us than Brown in terms of actually generating wins even if Brown is much better this year and is as good as Gary was last year.

I'd think you would have to take into account BB's ongoing knee issue last season but overall, when healthy, I think Brown and GTJ are fairly comparable in value - overall play of Brown to GTJ's offense.

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GTJ just priced himself out or wanted a non rebuilding situation but I would think that if a S&T deal was possible, that would have played out - feels like there's more to the story behind the scenes, as the Raptors seemed to move on quicker than I thought they would have.

I think the debate of which player the team could make an offer to or chased after is limited, I can't see a player that we could have that I'd want or players wanting to actually come to Canada and sign those sheets. And the selling cap space market didn't seem to be there as teams didn't really get anything that made me go wow.
That leads me to a serious question, have the Raptors ever been successful with RFA's? I honestly can't recall any.

[YogurtProducer]

brown is pretty easily a better player than GTJ. Maybe not a better fit for us, but he certainly is better at everything on an NBA floor sans shooting.

He can defend, playmaker, create, cut, etc. better than GTJ.

I mean you can say this but last year it was not true. Brown was pretty awful defensively while he was here, definitely didn't create any meaningful offence - basically any catch all or impact number rated Gary higher than him (PER, WS, BPM, EPM, etc). Like I said, hopefully he's a wildly different player from last year.

And the point kind of stands anyway even if we buy that (I don't), because the value of shooting on a team with Scottie as the star and Jak as the C is pretty high, so Gary is of more value to us than Brown in terms of actually generating wins even if Brown is much better this year and is as good as Gary was last year.

Brown was a legit 6th man / fringe starter on a championship team - and despite what everyone thinks, he was not a significantly different player for us than he was in DEN. Seriously - the gap between DEN Brown and TOR Brown is not some huge gap here other than some 3-point variance.

I think trying to suggest GTJ is capable of those highs is pretty slim. I am a GTJ fan as well, and I don't think he is nearly as good, versatile, or well rounded as Brown is.

PER / WS / BPM are all box score stats so who cares? They don't really reflect anything at all and really can be all but ignored.

[dhackett1565]

brown is pretty easily a better player than GTJ. Maybe not a better fit for us, but he certainly is better at everything on an NBA floor sans shooting.

He can defend, playmaker, create, cut, etc. better than GTJ.

I mean you can say this but last year it was not true. Brown was pretty awful defensively while he was here, definitely didn't create any meaningful offence - basically any catch all or impact number rated Gary higher than him (PER, WS, BPM, EPM, etc). Like I said, hopefully he's a wildly different player from last year.

And the point kind of stands anyway even if we buy that (I don't), because the value of shooting on a team with Scottie as the star and Jak as the C is pretty high, so Gary is of more value to us than Brown in terms of actually generating wins even if Brown is much better this year and is as good as Gary was last year.

Brown was a legit 6th man / fringe starter on a championship team - and despite what everyone thinks, he was not a significantly different player for us than he was in DEN. Seriously - the gap between DEN Brown and TOR Brown is not some huge gap here other than some 3-point variance.

I think trying to suggest GTJ is capable of those highs is pretty slim. I am a GTJ fan as well, and I don't think he is nearly as good, versatile, or well rounded as Brown is.

PER / WS / BPM are all box score stats so who cares? They don't really reflect anything at all and really can be all but ignored.

If you don't like those you should love EPM and it HATED Brown.

[ConSarnit]

Heck, Trent this year could have got MLE type money but his agent advised him wrongly. I don't think we offered him 15M, was there some info I missed? If so my bad.

I get it, he is a specialized player, but other players with his skills make MLE. He was a victim of this year's CBA changes.

All good, there's so much stuff flying around. If to be believed, this was on the table before the gates opened and it was turned down - or GTJ just wanted to go to a team that's contending and not rebuilding. Either way, he landed on a great team with a great opportunity to make some of the money he let go leaving the Raptors.

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I doubt it. Look at the players of his ilk around the league who are on their 3rd contract or beyond. Hield just got $9m. Beasley got $6m. Once your potential tag has worn off you aren’t getting paid as a 3+noD shooting guard. If Trent turned down >MLE he might not ever make that up, considering he’d have to make up the $10m he lost this year by not taking the MLE. Trent’s days of getting MLE+ money might be long gone.