2024 Paris Olympics General (non-Basketball/Track & Field) Discussion Thread

[zike_42]

The ending of the mens mountain bike was intense. The French crowd was not happy.

PS. Equestrian is amazing

[Tim Lehrbach]

Guys, seriously. I get this stuff in every other part of the internet. So can we not here, please? Or at the very least take it to the off topic board. If I'm out of line and that's not the consensus then I apologize but imho it's legitimately ruining the fun here.

It may be more appropriate for another thread or forum. That's fair. Sorry for contributing to distracting from the enjoyment of the Games.

[Sealab2024]

Guys, seriously. I get this stuff in every other part of the internet. So can we not here, please? Or at the very least take it to the off topic board. If I'm out of line and that's not the consensus then I apologize but imho it's legitimately ruining the fun here.

It may be more appropriate for another thread or forum. That's fair. Sorry for contributing to distracting from the enjoyment of the Games.

Nbd, and I'm not trying to be a D-bag about it, I get it cause I get into this stuff from time to time myself. But its to the point where we're getting competing thesis papers back and forth that have to be scrolled through in order to get actual event talk so I thought I'd at least ask.

[G R E Y]

If you can't verify Khelif's XX then you shouldn't accuse me of victimization.

Oh, the sweet hypocrisy

Neither you, G R E Y, nor the transphobes whose tweets you're posting can verify that Khelif is XY, can you? And yet that hasn't stopped you from attacking her.

The victims here are the women who have lost podium spots, records, monies, scholarships, and Olympic spots to men who are allowed to compete with them.

Just because you're satisfied with your own conclusion about Khelif based on everything you've read and chosen to disqualify a test done to show XY doesn't mean we should take it as a given.

Here are some other sources who doubt Khalif's eligibility:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

I fail to see how these two transphobes can be considered sources when it comes to this topic.

Do we consider the opinions of open racists to be sources when it comes to topics they love to be spew hate about? No, we do not. So, why would we treat open transphobes any differently?

IOC stopped doing simple sex-verification cheek swabs in I think 2000. This could all be clarified easily.

So too would any controversy about Semenya, about whom you are giving false information. Not sure if you are aware, but:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Again. Simple cheek swab. Compete in the category of your born sex. This is fair. And safe.

Here's a photo of Caster Semenya's birth certificate:



Taken from this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8215112.stm

What's that written over there? Oh, yes. FEMALE! That is Caster Semenya's born sex. You are wrong. Period. You're allowing your bias to lead you towards the victimization of other women.

There's a repeated pattern of overlooking actual results - both boxers tested with XY chromosomes - in favour of working to discredit the boxing association or the head of it, or the source of the investigation.

Also, trying to wholesale discredit people who work in various helpful fields - a civil rights lawyer and Olympian, a doctor and Olympian, and an evolutionary biologist, and nothing about what they stated or what was posted was addressed - is a telling omission.

The whole 'transphobe' label no longer has the shield of invincibility. Test results aren't going to be dismissed just because of it.

You know who else is fine referring to Reduxx?

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

So, a world renowned evolutionary biologist, a respected developmental biologist, a UN Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women and Girls (who retweeted the third tweet above) whose reputations for rigorous research are beyond reproach.

But if you want another source, these two boxers who tested with XY chromosomes fighting in female category are getting a more prominent examination.

The situation has arisen because the world championships last year was run under the auspices of the International Boxing Association, whose president, Umar Kremlev, told the Russian news agency, Tass, that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from the sports events”.

The IBA told the Guardian it had made the decision “following a comprehensive review and was intended to uphold the fairness and integrity of the competition”.

However the IOC’s own MyInfo website acknowledges that both boxers failed gender eligibility tests last year.

In its internal system, which is provided to journalists in Paris, the IOC states that Khelif was “disqualified just hours before her gold medal showdown against Yang Liu at the 2023 world championships in New Delhi, India, after her elevated ­levels of testosterone failed to meet the eligibility criteria”. The IOC also acknowledges that Lin was “stripped of her bronze medal after failing to meet eligibility requirements based on the results of a biochemical test.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/boxers-who-failed-gender-tests-at-world-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics

Even IOC states it.

As to Semenya, once again you ignored the DSD. Curiously, so does Semenya (since you're ok with BBC, and presumably Semenya's own words):

She says she has "nothing to hide", adding: "I am a woman and have a vagina just like any other woman.

Hmm vagina. Ok. So now what?

"At the end of the day, I know I am different. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or with internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman," added Semenya.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/67336536

Huh. But it does biologically make Semenya a male with DSD, so not less a woman but not a woman, in fact.

In your rush to dismiss any sources under the 'transphobe' umbrella, this was ignored:

The precise medical name for Caster Semenya’s difference in sexual development, or DSD, is 5-alpha reductase deficiency. It is a condition that influences only male sexual characteristics before birth and during puberty. Those with it have one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, plus testes that may be internal due to the shortage of a hormone, dihydrotestosterone, which can disrupt the formation of external sex organs. In other words, Semenya is 46XY: genetically male.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2023/07/11/world-athletics-right-caster-semenya/

As for the birth certificate, it is not uncommon for people with Semenya's DSD to present with external female genitalia and for the condition to not present until puberty ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency ). Semenya went through male puberty and all the biologial advantages that come with it, even for one with such a rare DSD.

Notice, too, that when I ask for the cheek swab to be reinstated to test for sex category, this is ignored in favour of the all mighty birth certificate. I'm not saying the family or Semenya are deceptive about it, doctors recorded what they saw, but you conflating the purpose of the certificate and swab and declaring one trumps the other is negligent at best.

Science-based research is there for all to read. Ad hominems vs. weight of evidence.

[G R E Y]

Again. Simple cheek swab. Compete in the category of your born sex. This is fair. And safe.

So obviously this is an area where things can get heated and hence maybe I shouldn't insert myself in here, but I don't want GREY to have to be the only one talking about this in a room full of guys who think it's all political.

My general thoughts - not having read up on specific athletes of the 2024 games:

1. I am generally pro-trans. I have trans people in my family. I have trans students. They are people and if it's not hurting anyone else I think they should get to live how they want to live.

2. I am generally what would get labeled "left wing". I don't want to be put in a box, but it's important to emphasize this given where the battle lines have been drawn on this politically.

3. The left as a whole see transgenderism in sports as just another area where transgender rights need to be rallied for.

4. But the left as a whole is generally pretty disengaged from sports and in my experience over the past decade, what I've seen is a lack of understanding about the problem of transfemales in sports. I've been criticized for putting sports above people...but everything I've been talking about is about protecting people.

5. There needs to be clear guidelines about what it takes to qualify for competitive female sports, because of course otherwise the males are generally going to have the advantage.

6. I'm not the one who should be deciding what those clear guidelines are, but I'll say this:

If a transfemale or intersex athlete can beat all cisfemales on Earth at a sport, it's naive to think it isn't because of advantages associated with male sexual development.

7. Now, I understand it feeling unfair to an athlete who has always thought she was sexually female to be disallowed to compete in women's sport. That athlete may well have never done anything dishonest and just worked their ass off for many years. They have not done anything in their own actions that makes them deserve to "have everything taken away from them".

8. But on a certain level, it is what it is. If you're better than all cisfemales on the planet at a sport because your body has male properties, then crowning you as the top female within that sport is allowing male properties to dominate in a second category that only exists to see who is best among those who don't have those properties.

9. And as GREY has said, multiply all of that 10-fold when talking about sports with actual physical contact between opponents, and multiply 100-fold for actual combat sports.

10. Finally, it should be kept in mind that in the open category of competition, anyone can compete. A boxing lightweight can go fight a super-heavyweight, an a woman can go run against men. There isn't anyone on the planet who is disallowed from competing in a sport because of a "gender test". All it means is that they have to compete in the open category rather than categories that have more safeguards.

11. Going back to me personally not being the one to make this call: I don't even know if I think it's a problem for someone to compete in the women's events simply because they have a Y-chromosome. 1-in-80,000 births have Swyer Syndrome, XY chromosomes but phenotypically female even to the point where - I believe - there is no extra testosterone. I don't have any specific reason to say that those with Swyer Syndrome shouldn't be able to compete against women. Such reasons might exist, but I can't give any, and if the medical world were to say that such people have no fundamental advantage over women based on any of the measurables we have that are believed to make men stronger/faster/whatever than woman, I'd have no problem with them in women's categories.

12. Last thought: What of the possibility that a woman is indisputably a woman by genetics and appearance but somehow has male-like levels for the relevant hormones? Should we call someone effectively "not a woman" because of we find something somewhere that gives her an advantage over other woman?

This is where things get very tricky, because there is no objectively clear-cut line for hormonal levels to define sex, let alone does so going back into posterity. And yet at the same time, if you refuse to use these markers at all, then you (re)open the door to all sorts cheating that's toxic to the human body which has damaged the lives of both male and female athletes - and which there's reason to believe has been forced on athletes by their governments in the past.

In other words:

Both XX & XY athletes have a long history of cheating by adding male hormones to their body, and so even if we're just looking at the open (men's) division of competition, I'd say it's unrealistic not to use outlier hormonal levels as evidence for cheating.

The idea that we wouldn't then used this for the women's division - where the results can be even more effective and (arguably) more damaging - is awfully hard to swallow.

And so: It's tricky, and I don't want to be the one to decide.

But that doesn't mean that whatever gets decided by the authorities I'll accept as correct, and part of the reason for that is the fact that the issue has NOW become political in a way it didn't used to be.

Therefore, if - say - in the name LGBT rights - speaking of someone who is himself pro-LGBT rights - we end up allowing someone to compete as a woman despite having clear male attributes, and that person ends actually hurting other athletes in part due to this male-associated advantage, I'm going to have a BIG problem with that.

And I think that's what GREY sees too. I can only imagine what it feels like for women to be told by men that these concerns are just politically-based cruelty, given that when I experience it as a man it makes me see red.

EDIT: Adding this link to the Guardian about the situation. For those who don't know, the Guardian is associated with left-wing politics, and so I chose them rather than bulk of the sites showing google results which were right-wing.

Here's a quote I think worth deconstructing:

In its internal system, which is provided to journalists in Paris, the IOC states that Khelif was “disqualified just hours before her gold medal showdown against Yang Liu at the 2023 world championships in New Delhi, India, after her elevated ­levels of testosterone failed to meet the eligibility criteria”. The IOC also acknowledges that Lin was “stripped of her bronze medal after failing to meet eligibility requirements based on the results of a biochemical test.

So, first there's an emotional valence to this that I think implies that the IOC is being dishonest and I don't see any basis for that. What's happened here - possibly accidentally just through kinks in the new process - the 2024 rules for gender are looser than the 2023 rules.

I'll emphasize again that I'm not the one who should make the rules...but the part I bolded seems like a pretty reasonable rule, and so I wonder what exactly the new rule is.

Thanks. A measured, responsible, nuanced post.

Differentiating testosterone from chromosome tests (or including both) is important. IOC stopped doing sex category tests in I think 2000. This is one simple means of drawing a clear line as to who should compete where. Let all other decisions flow from that. Otherwise this is going to get more dangerous than it already is, in addition to egregiously unfair.

[G R E Y]

Read on Twitter

[ITYSL]

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[LordCovington33]

I am a bit bummed by my USA volleyball gals losing to China earlier. They came back from a bad start and took it to 5 sets, but really didn't play all that well. Too many points where they were conservative tipping the ball over the net instead of taking real swings at it.

I'm displeased with the roster and unwillingness of Coach Kiraly to make subs and adjustments. Team USA won a surprise Gold at the last Olympics, and they brought back essentially the same starters out of respect, which I understand. But the starting lineup lacks size and power and several of the players are just past their prime now.

We have young stars like Kathryn Plummer and Dana Retke on the bench, who are both 10 feet tall and have cannon arms. And Avery Skinner who is not as big but very powerful. When coach finally put some subs in the game they went on a big run, but it was too little too late.

Never really watched indoor volleyball until these Olympics. The women’s game I watched (the Netherlands and turkey) was quite exciting. Should watch more of it.

[Johnny Bball]

Can't say I expected to ever be watching or saying this ... but Women's Rugby Canada vs France was an amazing game!

[wade44]

Can't say I expected to ever be watching or saying this ... but Women's Rugby Canada vs France was an amazing game!

First time having watched Rugby, I was highly impressed with that match.

Rugby is consistent fast pace and action compared to the slogs and constant breaks of other sports. Would definitely watch again

[Apz]

I am a bit bummed by my USA volleyball gals losing to China earlier. They came back from a bad start and took it to 5 sets, but really didn't play all that well. Too many points where they were conservative tipping the ball over the net instead of taking real swings at it.

I'm displeased with the roster and unwillingness of Coach Kiraly to make subs and adjustments. Team USA won a surprise Gold at the last Olympics, and they brought back essentially the same starters out of respect, which I understand. But the starting lineup lacks size and power and several of the players are just past their prime now.

We have young stars like Kathryn Plummer and Dana Retke on the bench, who are both 10 feet tall and have cannon arms. And Avery Skinner who is not as big but very powerful. When coach finally put some subs in the game they went on a big run, but it was too little too late.

Never really watched indoor volleyball until these Olympics. The women’s game I watched (the Netherlands and turkey) was quite exciting. Should watch more of it.

Watched the netherlands turkey game too and it was great. Well, up to eurosport decided to leave the game before 5th set for some other sport so i dont even know how it ended. And how did the team gymnastics end last night? China were first and looked really good before i went to bed.

Watching some team fencing now, womens italy egypt. I am clueless since there are no commentators but it does make me want to do a rewatch of 1 of the best series ever, twentyfive twentyone, which is about a korean girl that does fencing

[_jin]

Coco Gauff already eliminated in the round of 16. She's not there yet mentally, totally crumbled twice in both sets.

[ITYSL]

I am a bit bummed by my USA volleyball gals losing to China earlier. They came back from a bad start and took it to 5 sets, but really didn't play all that well. Too many points where they were conservative tipping the ball over the net instead of taking real swings at it.

I'm displeased with the roster and unwillingness of Coach Kiraly to make subs and adjustments. Team USA won a surprise Gold at the last Olympics, and they brought back essentially the same starters out of respect, which I understand. But the starting lineup lacks size and power and several of the players are just past their prime now.

We have young stars like Kathryn Plummer and Dana Retke on the bench, who are both 10 feet tall and have cannon arms. And Avery Skinner who is not as big but very powerful. When coach finally put some subs in the game they went on a big run, but it was too little too late.

Never really watched indoor volleyball until these Olympics. The women’s game I watched (the Netherlands and turkey) was quite exciting. Should watch more of it.

Watched the netherlands turkey game too and it was great. Well, up to eurosport decided to leave the game before 5th set for some other sport so i dont even know how it ended. And how did the team gymnastics end last night? China were first and looked really good before i went to bed.

Watching some team fencing now, womens italy egypt. I am clueless since there are no commentators but it does make me want to do a rewatch of 1 of the best series ever, twentyfive twentyone, which is about a korean girl that does fencing

For gymnastics - China was in the lead the entire way, then one of their gymnasts fell twice on the last event, high bar. Japan, which was also on high bar, nailed all their routines and snuck by China for the gold. It was great drama all around, from the US winning bronze and them jumping all around to Japan getting the gold and many of their gymnasts crying in joy. It was a fantastic event. Looking forward to watching the women's team final today.

Watched the mixed doubles table tennis bronze medal match this morning, which was entertaining. I've also enjoyed watching some badminton here and there as well.

Much as I've tried, I just can't get into judo. It's just 10 minutes of them grabbing each other, then it getting broken up with a restart. Then they go to the ground, then it's whistled for a restart. Over and over again, until one of them gets points because the other committed too many penalties, and that's how it often ends. I know much of it is just my lack of understanding of the sport, but it's not super exciting to me.

[Apz]

Watching the mixed doubled final in tabletennis. China vs north korea. Amazing game

[TFJava]

Two former NBA players are competing in this year's Olympics, trying to bring home the gold medal for the US; Jimmy Ferdette , competing in the 3 x 3 Basketball tourney and Chase Budinger competing in the Olympic beach volleyball tourney. Best to them as they try to win gold.



Courtesy of NBA.com,

Former NBA forward Chase Budinger wins 2024 Olympic beach volleyball debut in Paris.

Chase Budinger has never forgotten how badly he played in his first NBA game. He’ll have only good memories from his Olympic debut.

The former Arizona and professional basketball player and his partner, Miles Evans, beat host France in straight sets on Monday to coast through their opening match of the Paris beach volleyball tournament.

“I really tried to use my basketball experience of playing in front of big crowds to be composed the whole time,” Budinger said after a 21-14, 21-11 victory. “But it definitely was not like that inside.”

Budinger spent seven years in the NBA, mostly as a bench player for the Rockets and Timberwolves, before turning to beach volleyball to fulfill an Olympic dream. His first game, he still remembers, “I played awful.”

“On the bus ride over here, I was telling Miles about my first basketball game, of how nervous I was and how the nerves really got to me,” Budinger said. “I was 0-for-2 (from 3-point range), had two turnovers and one of my shots I had was an airball. So the nerves affected my game play.”

At the Eiffel Tower Stadium on Monday the jitters didn’t get to him — even against a French team that had won the last three matchups on the international tour.

“It took me six years. It took me a long time to finally achieve this goal and I am here competing at the Olympics,” Budinger said. “And there is no better feeling.”

Budinger and Evans scored the first three points and never trailed in the first set. In the second, France did eke out a 3-1 lead before the Americans won the next three points and finished the match in just 32 minutes.

“It’s one of the best starts we could imagine,” Evans said. “I had all these bad scenarios in my head going into this match. I am super thankful we were able to overcome that.”

Unlike the NBA debut against the Portland Trail Blazers back in 2009, Budinger said, “I felt like out here, I was able to get a couple of points early. That helped relieve some of that stress, those nerves and allowed me to play my game more without it affecting me as much.”

In other notable beach action on Monday, Americans Kristen Nuss and Taryn Kloth beat Tokyo silver medalist Taliqua Clancy of Australia and her new partner, Mariafe Artacho del Solar, in straight sets to improve to 2-0 in Paris.

France swept Rio gold medalist Laura Ludwig of Germany and her new partner, Louisa Lippmann. Qatar, the bronze medalist in Tokyo on the men’s side, beat top-ranked Sweden 2-1 to improve to 2-0 in pool play.


Reported from Yahoo Sports.com,


Jimmer Fredette rises again as 2024 Olympics give him another shot at glory

BA stardom may have eluded him, but Jimmer Fredette is back on the court, this time with Olympic gold in 3x3 basketball on his mind.

Two summers ago, USA Basketball sent an old college coach to try to reel in a big-name recruit.

Fran Fraschilla journeyed to Denver in hopes of persuading Jimmer Fredette to leave traditional 5-on-5 basketball behind and to reinvent himself as the world’s most famous 3x3 player.

Since 3x3 players are required to accumulate points on the world tour in order to be eligible to play for their countries in the Olympics, USA Basketball could not simply select LeBron James, Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and be done with it. It had to scramble to find players passed on by NBA and top-tier overseas clubs yet talented enough to challenge for a medal.

Fredette by then was in the twilight of his well-chronicled journey from BYU folk hero, to NBA flop, to basketball nomad. He had yo-yoed between the G League, Greece and China for five years before declining lucrative offers in order to take a year-long break from professional basketball and devote more time to his wife and three young children.

Over cheeseburgers and iced teas in June 2022, Fraschilla asked the then 33-year-old Fredette to bring Jimmermania to 3x3 basketball. Fraschilla told Fredette that 3x3 had made its Olympic debut in Tokyo in 2021, that Team USA had failed to qualify and that Fredette could lead the push to right that wrong if he was willing to be away from his family for six to eight weekends the following year.

“My brain is always calculating who might be good at the sport,” Fraschilla, a senior advisor to USA Basketball, told Yahoo Sports. “I knew he still had game and I knew he was competitive, so I just took a shot.”

To Fredette, 3x3 basketball was faintly reminiscent of the half-court pickup games he played as a kid, only faster, bruisingly physical and more strategic. The winning team was the first to 21 or whoever led after a single 10-minute period. Baskets were worth two points from behind the arc or one point from inside it.

Fraschilla’s pitch intrigued Fredette because 3x3 provided the competitive outlet he craved and a schedule that afforded him year-round family time. It also helped that Fredette is a lifelong Olympics junkie who dreamed of winning a gold medal even before he took aim at a Final Four or an NBA title.

By the end of his lunch with Fraschilla, Fredette was already making plans to dive into a variant of basketball he previously didn’t know existed. To Fredette, this obscure sport was his best chance to extend his career and give his tangled basketball odyssey a joyful ending.

And now Tuesday, Fredette, along with three teammates — Canyon Barry, Kareem Maddox and Dylan Travis — will begin a quest for gold in Paris.

“As soon as I heard ‘Olympics,’ I was like, ‘I'm all in,’” Fredette said. “I saw this as the opportunity of a lifetime.”

[_jin]

Watching the mixed doubled final in tabletennis. China vs north korea. Amazing game

It's absolutely incredible that the North Korean pair is able to match up evenly against the best pair in the world. They are completely unknown, they dont play on the international circuit and every 4 years they pop up, bring new players no one ever heard of and surprise everyone. Imagine if they were allowed to compete on the WTT tour and regularly face the best players in the world, they'd be even better and could possibly rival China.

[G R E Y]

Just saw the final few points of women's table tennis US vs. Brazil.

Amaaaazing reflexes and adjustments and contrasts of styles.

[TFJava]

3 x 3 basketball should be an exciting event.

[Apz]

womens rugby new zeeland usa. Its a fun sport.

Know there were something i were gonna watch now at 16.?? (+1) but cant find it haha. Well, the gymnastics at 1820 is next great thing then

[G R E Y]

Just watching women rugby other semi final, Aussies vs. Canada who just took the lead 14-12 after being down 12-3.