Summer League Stats

[Crymson]

Packed interior? Got 3 shooters spacing the floor dude

Two non-shooters almost invariably means terrible spacing and has been a no-no in the NBA for a long time now.

[Pharaoh]

Packed interior? Got 3 shooters spacing the floor dude

Two non-shooters almost invariably means terrible spacing and has been a no-no in the NBA for a long time now.

Holland & Duren in the PnR would be effective given the other 3 on the floor.

That said I'm not hung up about designing 5 man units just to demonstrate how Holland can play 10 minutes.

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[Crymson]

[quote="Pharaoh"]Holland & Duren in the PnR would be effective given the other 3 on the floor.

Holland's defender would go under every screen and retreat into the paint, thereby making Holland's life on the drive much more difficult; that's the fate of any handler who can't shoot. Holland is a raw finisher with a raw handle. He's likely to struggle right now in a much more basic role with proper spacing. Having him attack a packed interior is overwhelmingly likely to result in him struggling. The same is true for significantly better handlers than he is right now.

[Pharaoh]

Holland & Duren in the PnR would be effective given the other 3 on the floor.

Holland's defender would go under every screen and retreat into the paint, thereby making Holland's life on the drive much more difficult; that's the fate of any handler who can't shoot. Holland is a raw finisher with a raw handle. He's likely to struggle right now in a much more basic role with proper spacing. Having him attack a packed interior is overwhelmingly likely to result in him struggling. The same is true for significantly better handlers than he is right now.

His defender and Duren's in the paint isn't a packed interior and if his guy is going under the screen and Duren's defender is sagging Holland gets a wide open jumper inside 18 feet.

As much as everyone moans about mid range shots an open jumper is still an open jumper.

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[Billl]

Holland & Duren in the PnR would be effective given the other 3 on the floor.

Holland's defender would go under every screen and retreat into the paint, thereby making Holland's life on the drive much more difficult; that's the fate of any handler who can't shoot. Holland is a raw finisher with a raw handle. He's likely to struggle right now in a much more basic role with proper spacing. Having him attack a packed interior is overwhelmingly likely to result in him struggling. The same is true for significantly better handlers than he is right now.

His defender and Duren's in the paint isn't a packed interior and if his guy is going under the screen and Duren's defender is sagging Holland gets a wide open jumper inside 18 feet.

As much as everyone moans about mid range shots an open jumper is still an open jumper.

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And an open 3 is an open 3. Doesn't matter much if you brick the shot though. I sure don't want holland taking a ton of mid range jumpers just because teams leave him open. And, There is a REASON teams are going to leave him open.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect him to be handling the ball much as part of any designed sets this year. Most of his looks should come in transition or attacking a rotating defense. If he's out there pounding the ball on the perimeter, things have gone horribly wrong. Just let him use his natural speed and athleticism now and let him develop the rest of his game slowly. We should be looking to keep his decisions really simple and build from there.

[JennetteMcCurdy]

If Holland gets charity minutes early, Cade might become the first player to demand a trade before his extension kicks in.

I think Pistons will play to win early, which will be a welcome change. Then, when it’s evident that the play in game is out of reach, the Hollands of the world will get plenty of minutes.

[SuperBad]

This is how I see it going for Our season and for Holland as well.

[Crymson]

His defender and Duren's in the paint isn't a packed interior and if his guy is going under the screen and Duren's defender is sagging Holland gets a wide open jumper inside 18 feet. As much as everyone moans about mid range shots an open jumper is still an open jumper.

An open jumper is relevant only if the player can actually hit that open jumper at an agreeable percentage. The number of players who reached the halfcourt efficiency threshold or anywhere close to it last season on open midrange pullups of the sort you're describing last season was 13. Five of those were all-stars last season, five others are former all-stars, and the remaining three (Cade, Jamal Murray, and Jalen Williams) will probably get there someday.

Midrange pullups are such inefficient shots that very few players attempt them on any sort of significant volume. Those who do so are almost without exception lead scorers who are given license to take the shots they want.

Holland almost certainly can't do it, and that's no knock against him. Defenses would be happy to give him that shot. It's a shot defenses will gladly give to the vast majority of players.

[Billl]

His defender and Duren's in the paint isn't a packed interior and if his guy is going under the screen and Duren's defender is sagging Holland gets a wide open jumper inside 18 feet. As much as everyone moans about mid range shots an open jumper is still an open jumper.

An open jumper being an open jumper is only relevant if the player can actually hit that open jumper at an agreeable percentage. The number of players who reached the halfcourt efficiency threshold or anywhere close to it last season on open midrange pullups of the sort you're describing last season was 13. Five of those were all-stars last season, five others are former all-stars, and the remaining three (Cade, Jamal Murray, and Jalen Williams) will probably get there someday.

It's such an inefficient shot that very few players even bother attempting it on any sort of significant volume. Those who do so are almost without exception lead scorers who are given license to take the shots they want.

Holland almost certainly can't do it, and that's no knock against him.

Well, he can't do it yet. That's his upside - the 3 level threat on offense with great defense. He's super raw at this point though, so expecting him to create offense efficiently is a recipe for disaster. Down the road, if he pans out, he's got the attitude of a high volume scorer.

[Pharaoh]

His defender and Duren's in the paint isn't a packed interior and if his guy is going under the screen and Duren's defender is sagging Holland gets a wide open jumper inside 18 feet. As much as everyone moans about mid range shots an open jumper is still an open jumper.

An open jumper being an open jumper is only relevant if the player can actually hit that open jumper at an agreeable percentage. The number of players who reached the halfcourt efficiency threshold or anywhere close to it last season on open midrange pullups of the sort you're describing last season was 13. Five of those were all-stars last season, five others are former all-stars, and the remaining three (Cade, Jamal Murray, and Jalen Williams) will probably get there someday.

It's such an inefficient shot that very few players even bother attempting it on any sort of significant volume. Those who do so are almost without exception lead scorers who are given license to take the shots they want.

Holland almost certainly can't do it, and that's no knock against him.

Well, he can't do it yet. That's his upside - the 3 level threat on offense with great defense. He's super raw at this point though, so expecting him to create offense efficiently is a recipe for disaster. Down the road, if he pans out, he's got the attitude of a high volume scorer.

The original line up I posted with Holland as the creator obviously wasn't to be used for 15-20 minutes a game - it was for less than 10 to put him in that handler position to develop for maybe 5 minutes a game.

Cade & Ivey are going to log most of the minutes at PG. Sasser might get some time there too but the vast majority of our sets will be initiated by Cade and Ivey.

Holland is more suited to the 2/3 spot and working on his creation among many other things will determine his ceiling.

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[Crymson]

The original line up I posted with Holland as the creator obviously wasn't to be used for 15-20 minutes a game - it was for less than 10 to put him in that handler position to develop for maybe 5 minutes a game.

It's a lineup with poor spacing that sets him up to fail. He's basically set up to fail as a handler regardless until he learns to shoot. Players far better at creating offense than Holland are likely to have issues if they're made to attack into a packed interior. Spacing is key.

Well, he can't do it yet. That's his upside - the 3 level threat on offense with great defense. He's super raw at this point though, so expecting him to create offense efficiently is a recipe for disaster. Down the road, if he pans out, he's got the attitude of a high volume scorer.

Few players are true three-level scorers. It's tough to be efficient from midrange.

If a player can shoot threes and is athletic enough to penetrate with ease, the midrange isn't fully necessary. Better to have it than not have it, of course, but it's not a necessity for everyone -- more so for handlers who aren't as athletic.

[Pharaoh]

The original line up I posted with Holland as the creator obviously wasn't to be used for 15-20 minutes a game - it was for less than 10 to put him in that handler position to develop for maybe 5 minutes a game.

It's a lineup with poor spacing that sets him up to fail. He's basically set up to fail as a handler regardless until he learns to shoot. Players far better at creating offense than Holland are likely to have issues if they're made to attack into a packed interior. Spacing is key.

Well, he can't do it yet. That's his upside - the 3 level threat on offense with great defense. He's super raw at this point though, so expecting him to create offense efficiently is a recipe for disaster. Down the road, if he pans out, he's got the attitude of a high volume scorer.

Few players are true three-level scorers. It's tough to be efficient from midrange.

If a player can shoot threes and is athletic enough to penetrate with ease, the midrange isn't fully necessary. Better to have it than not have it, of course, but it's not a necessity for everyone -- more so for handlers who aren't as athletic.

We differ on "packed" interior so all good



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[Crymson]

We differ on "packed" interior so all good

You and the modern NBA differ on the subject. I don't mean to sound authoritative, but you're arguing against a fundamental reality of NBA offense in today's league. Three shooters is inherently a lineup with inadequate spacing in all but the most exceptional situations.

[Billl]

The original line up I posted with Holland as the creator obviously wasn't to be used for 15-20 minutes a game - it was for less than 10 to put him in that handler position to develop for maybe 5 minutes a game.

Cade & Ivey are going to log most of the minutes at PG. Sasser might get some time there too but the vast majority of our sets will be initiated by Cade and Ivey.

Holland is more suited to the 2/3 spot and working on his creation among many other things will determine his ceiling.

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I would be shocked if holland gets a single pick and roll play called for him this year - unless we are just shutting it down later on. He might end up with the ball as a natural part of the offensive flow or off a missed shot and end up in that position from time to time. He shouldn't be initiating an offense at this point though. Right now, he's a finisher. I think his natural inclination is to be a finisher.

I know the ignite program was a mess last year, but he had the ball the entire time and averaged 3 assists. In summer league, yes I know summer league and all, he averaged 2 assists and 18 fga. His natural tendency is "scorer" and he's not very advanced in terms of vision.

Hopefully we are done with the "toss guys out there and see if they learn" stuff. Coach needs to put guys in a position to contribute based on their current abilities and then be working in practice on the rest of their development. Based on his public comments, I think that's exactly what he intends to do.