RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Iwasawitness]

There are scores of videos on YouTube if you’d bother to look. It’s the worst kept secret in sports.

I’m not going through the effort to see if your obviously false claim is false. You’re the one who made the claim, it’s on you to prove it. Until you give me some videos, you’re full of ****, which is par the course for you.

It’s not my job to spoon feed you video evidence that’s readily available with a quick Google or YouTube search. You can believe the Earth is flat as well if you want. Not my job to convince you otherwise. The proof is out there

Um, yeah it is. That’s the whole point of making an argument. You make a claim and then you back it up with proof. It’s debating 101. If it’s that readily available, you shouldn’t have an issue finding it. I’m not going to waste my time looking for something that doesn’t exist.

[Lo Wang]

I can't believe this thread was moved. All around is very different from GOAT, and half the people that are great all around players aren't even on the list. That's the main reason why I didn't include LeBron. I knew this would happen. Everytime that name comes up in any thread, it gets derailed.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I'm reposting this. It got moved to the GOAT thread, but it is NOT a GOAT discussion. It about intangibles and off the court things that truly improved teammates. That's not the same as a GOAT discussion at all.

I'm not talking about making their teammates better by giving them assist like Magic or anything. See the thought provoking post below about what I mean - specifically the bolded.

That's a really unusual take. Jordan impacted both ends of the floor as much as anyone.

And more than Hakeem, Lebron, or anyone you mentioned, Jordan held the teammates accountable,
holding them to a very high standard and turning practices into wars, which made games easy-
this has been said by multiple players, from Scottie to BJ, Grant etc.

To say he didn't have a multitude of impact is wild. And when he played point for the Bulls? He averaged near a 32 point triple double during the season while only playing PG for a portion of it. In 1991? He averaged 32.5, 11.4 (3rd highest finals assists of all time behind Russell and Magic) with awesome defense.

There was not much else if anything he could have done to be impactful.

This is why Jordan and Scottie 3-peated twice with two different supporting casts, and Pippen himself stated that Jordan's push made him the player he became (Jordan used to have Pippen guard him during practice when he was young in the league)

The only players that holds others accountable like that whom you mentioned is probably Duncan or Hakeem to an extent, but nearly the same extent as Jordan.

Either way, I appreciate you acknowledging that. Lebron's are impressive as well.

It's been said that no player had the off court impact on his teammates like MJ did.

- He held teammates accountable like you wouldn't believe. Nobody held teammates more accountable than MJ did.
- He made practices ALL OUT WAR. Per bledredwine's post, this games simple. Games were a walk in the park after to into battle with MJ during practice. Those must have been intense practices.

More than any other player, you hear? How much Pippen benefited from practicing against Jordan. How do you think he became a GOAT wing defender? Practicing against Jordan. He may not have become the all-star player he was without Jordan to play against.

The question is simple. Did any players have the off court impact on teammates that MJ had?

Puhleeze....nobody knows what kinda career Pippen would've had without Jordan. That's just hyperbole.

Yes averaging triple doubles.....when you were fixated on them to the point of checking your stats during stoppages in play like Jordan was. Was it really beneficial to the Bulls for MJ to be the PG averaging such numbers? Highly debatable, especially when the Bulls went 6-5 during that stretch.

Jordans holding "teammates accountable" as a slight against others stars is a joke too. Especially over someone like Hakeem.

Hakeem had even more addicts alongside in the 80s than he did in Chicago and almost led Houston to the title. Maxwell was at least 3x the headcase that Rodman ever was. Jordan wouldn't have been able to make Maxwell accountable and would've been shanked with some sort of foreign object the moment to tried to bully Mad Max, they wouldn't have last more than a season together.

Glad to have taken Dream #1 over MJ, simply the better building block that could carry a heavier load for a team....on and off the court.
.

[brutalitops]

I'm reposting this. It got moved to the GOAT thread, but it is NOT a GOAT discussion. It about intangibles and off the court things that truly improved teammates. That's not the same as a GOAT discussion at all.

I'm not talking about making their teammates better by giving them assist like Magic or anything. See the thought provoking post below about what I mean - specifically the bolded.

That's a really unusual take. Jordan impacted both ends of the floor as much as anyone.

And more than Hakeem, Lebron, or anyone you mentioned, Jordan held the teammates accountable,
holding them to a very high standard and turning practices into wars, which made games easy-
this has been said by multiple players, from Scottie to BJ, Grant etc.

To say he didn't have a multitude of impact is wild. And when he played point for the Bulls? He averaged near a 32 point triple double during the season while only playing PG for a portion of it. In 1991? He averaged 32.5, 11.4 (3rd highest finals assists of all time behind Russell and Magic) with awesome defense.

There was not much else if anything he could have done to be impactful.

This is why Jordan and Scottie 3-peated twice with two different supporting casts, and Pippen himself stated that Jordan's push made him the player he became (Jordan used to have Pippen guard him during practice when he was young in the league)

The only players that holds others accountable like that whom you mentioned is probably Duncan or Hakeem to an extent, but nearly the same extent as Jordan.

Either way, I appreciate you acknowledging that. Lebron's are impressive as well.

It's been said that no player had the off court impact on his teammates like MJ did.

- He held teammates accountable like you wouldn't believe. Nobody held teammates more accountable than MJ did.
- He made practices ALL OUT WAR. Per bledredwine's post, this games simple. Games were a walk in the park after to into battle with MJ during practice. Those must have been intense practices.

More than any other player, you hear? How much Pippen benefited from practicing against Jordan. How do you think he became a GOAT wing defender? Practicing against Jordan. He may not have become the all-star player he was without Jordan to play against.

The question is simple. Did any players have the off court impact on teammates that MJ had?

Circlejerk. Also stories of him just abusing guys, Punching Kerr, Being a wanker to team mates or erven guys he drafted.

This is like asking which NBA player cooks the best tasting meal, We have no idea and there are o many variables

[SerialChiller]

lol

[Hair Jordan]

I'm reposting this. It got moved to the GOAT thread, but it is NOT a GOAT discussion. It about intangibles and off the court things that truly improved teammates. That's not the same as a GOAT discussion at all.

I'm not talking about making their teammates better by giving them assist like Magic or anything. See the thought provoking post below about what I mean - specifically the bolded.

That's a really unusual take. Jordan impacted both ends of the floor as much as anyone.

And more than Hakeem, Lebron, or anyone you mentioned, Jordan held the teammates accountable,
holding them to a very high standard and turning practices into wars, which made games easy-
this has been said by multiple players, from Scottie to BJ, Grant etc.

To say he didn't have a multitude of impact is wild. And when he played point for the Bulls? He averaged near a 32 point triple double during the season while only playing PG for a portion of it. In 1991? He averaged 32.5, 11.4 (3rd highest finals assists of all time behind Russell and Magic) with awesome defense.

There was not much else if anything he could have done to be impactful.

This is why Jordan and Scottie 3-peated twice with two different supporting casts, and Pippen himself stated that Jordan's push made him the player he became (Jordan used to have Pippen guard him during practice when he was young in the league)

The only players that holds others accountable like that whom you mentioned is probably Duncan or Hakeem to an extent, but nearly the same extent as Jordan.

Either way, I appreciate you acknowledging that. Lebron's are impressive as well.

It's been said that no player had the off court impact on his teammates like MJ did.

- He held teammates accountable like you wouldn't believe. Nobody held teammates more accountable than MJ did.
- He made practices ALL OUT WAR. Per bledredwine's post, this games simple. Games were a walk in the park after to into battle with MJ during practice. Those must have been intense practices.

More than any other player, you hear? How much Pippen benefited from practicing against Jordan. How do you think he became a GOAT wing defender? Practicing against Jordan. He may not have become the all-star player he was without Jordan to play against.

The question is simple. Did any players have the off court impact on teammates that MJ had?

Puhleeze....nobody knows what kinda career Pippen would've had without Jordan. That's just hyperbole.

Yes averaging triple doubles.....when you were fixated on them to the point of checking your stats during stoppages in play like Jordan was. Was it really beneficial to the Bulls for MJ to be the PG averaging such numbers? Highly debatable, especially when the Bulls went 6-5 during that stretch.

Jordans holding "teammates accountable" as a slight against others stars is a joke too. Especially over someone like Hakeem.

Hakeem had even more addicts alongside in the 80s than he did in Chicago and almost led Houston to the title. Maxwell was at least 3x the headcase that Rodman ever was. Jordan wouldn't have been able to make Maxwell accountable and would've been shanked with some sort of foreign object the moment to tried to bully Mad Max, they wouldn't have last more than a season together.

Glad to have taken Dream #1 over MJ, simply the better building block that could carry a heavier load for a team....on and off the court.
.

Olajuwon? Dude had 9 first round playoff exits in his career, 1 missed playoffs in his prime and got swept 4X. He couldn't make an All-NBA first team during the ages of 27, 28 or 29, couldn’t win an MVP or ring before age 30 and was in trade talks with Boston for Reggie Lewis. Brad Daugherty made the All-NBA Third team over him for Christ’s sake. He was a selfish head-case that faked injuries while missing the playoffs in his prime due to a contract dispute (while the doctors said there was nothing wrong him, BTW) He threw his teammates and coaches under the bus, cried during the ‘96 Olympics 'cause he wasn't getting touches and only won when Jordan was retired and the three-point line was shortened for his shooters during the most talent-starved period in NBA history since the merger. Get real.

[Fencer reregistered]

There are a lot of stories of practices being tougher than games. The 80s Celtics have a bunch of those, for example.

[ReddoverKobe]

Jordan should thank his lucky stars he did not play when social media was a thing. Dude would be getting trashed for the same things people "love" about him. Its not a cult though!

[picko]

How would we know? We can see which players have a huge impact on their teammates directly on court. Guys like Magic, Nash, Jokic likely dominate that metric. Playmakers in general are the obvious choice.

We have no idea, however, who has the biggest impact in elevating their teammates by setting standards, keeping teammates accountable etc. The only evidence we have for Jordan is that he won 6 championships.

What we tend to discount though is the quality of coaching and teammates. Jordan was the same guy in the 1980s (getting bounced early in the playoffs) that he was in the 1990s (dominating and winning championships easily) but the results were very different. So something clearly changed and I doubt it was because Jordan started setting higher standards or held people accountable.

Rather than directing more accolades towards Jordan, perhaps we should instead be heaping more praise towards his teammates and coaching staff.

[___Rand___]

Jordan was a great player. He was clutch as hell. And he hardly EVER took a night off. His drive and ambition were admirable, and rarely seen. But the man was an ass to others and it's well documented. It took the right pieces and coaching to bring those championships. There was a time when the conversation was is Jordan going to be one of those greats who never win a championship. Great player, not a great human being.

[ScrantonBulls]

How would we know? We can see which players have a huge impact on their teammates directly on court. Guys like Magic, Nash, Jokic likely dominate that metric. Playmakers in general are the obvious choice.

We have no idea, however, who has the biggest impact in elevating their teammates by setting standards, keeping teammates accountable etc. The only evidence we have for Jordan is that he won 6 championships.

What we tend to discount though is the quality of coaching and teammates. Jordan was the same guy in the 1980s (getting bounced early in the playoffs) that he was in the 1990s (dominating and winning championships easily) but the results were very different. So something clearly changed and I doubt it was because Jordan started setting higher standards or held people accountable.

Rather than directing more accolades towards Jordan, perhaps we should instead be heaping more praise towards his teammates and coaching staff.

How would we know? It's obvious. There's plenty of stories about how much better players for from playing with him. Look after his first three-peat. 1992-93 they were 57-25. The year after, without MJ, they were 55-27. MJ has them working like a well oiled machine by then. They were battle tested from the playoffs and practicing with MJ. He helped them become a team within the triangle. He deserves huge credit for that 55-27 season even though he wasn't there.

[The Real Dalic]

I feel like the OP is a LeBron fan in disguise. Everyone knows the answer to this is a player like LeBron, Magic, Paul, or Nash. This has to be his way to discredit Jordan to give LeBron another feather in his cap towards GOAT status.

[ScrantonBulls]

I feel like the OP is a LeBron fan in disguise. Everyone knows the answer to this is a player like LeBron, Magic, Paul, or Nash. This has to be his way to discredit Jordan to give LeBron another feather in his cap towards GOAT status.

You should try reading the first post in a thread if you're going to reply to it. I literally said in the first post that this isn't about getting assists or directly helping on the court.

[ImSlower]

I'm a huge Jordan fan, but I disagree with your insistence that this is thread worthy vs the stickied thread that's the same conversations your entire account seems to be based on. Go watch Frozen and let it go, homie! Times change and younger people like the other guy better. It's ok. It's totally ok. Go Bulls.

[FrodoBaggins]

Russell, Bird, Duncan, and Kidd (even with the off-court drama) are the gold standards for me. These are the players I think had a measurable impact on culture and teammates. They raised the standards of practice, preparation, and general professionalism. These are guys who I believe improved teammates and can be attributed with elevating their play, even when they themselves were off the court.

Not all impact can be measured with the play-by-play lineup on/off plus-minus data. And if the raw data can't, then RAPM can't. Guys look great playing with a certain leader, even when he's off the court. And then they look bad playing for another team.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Olajuwon? Dude had 9 first round playoff exits in his career, 1 missed playoffs in his prime and got swept 4X. He couldn't make an All-NBA first team during the ages of 27, 28 or 29, couldn’t win an MVP or ring before age 30 and was in trade talks with Boston for Reggie Lewis. Brad Daugherty made the All-NBA Third team over him for Christ’s sake. He was a selfish head-case that faked injuries while missing the playoffs in his prime due to a contract dispute (while the doctors said there was nothing wrong him, BTW) He threw his teammates and coaches under the bus, cried during the ‘96 Olympics 'cause he wasn't getting touches and only won when Jordan was retired and the three-point line was shortened for his shooters during the most talent-starved period in NBA history since the merger. Get real.

Only won when Jordan retired? How could one claim jordan was retired when Hakeem was winning a title when there's footage of him falling flat on his face at mid court via a nick Anderson lynching as Orlando tossed he and Chicago outta the playoffs?

You know the same Orlando team Hakeem and Houston swept? Jordan retired to do what he mostly did vs Hakeem bat under .500 strike out and lose.

Couldn't get out the first round? How many of those times was he under .500 like Jordan's losing ballhogging self twice was?

When overrated MJ was forced to carry the load Hakeem was most of his prime, he had the Bulls headed nowhere fast.

Imagine having the NBAs leading rebounder alongside you and still finishing under.500 like what happened with one of Jordans Bulls?

Hakeem would never.

[bkkrh]

Russell, Bird, Duncan, and Kidd (even with the off-court drama) are the gold standards for me. These are the players I think had a measurable impact on culture and teammates. They raised the standards of practice, preparation, and general professionalism. These are guys who I believe improved teammates and can be attributed with elevating their play, even when they themselves were off the court.

Not all impact can be measured with the play-by-play lineup on/off plus-minus data. And if the raw data can't, then RAPM can't. Guys look great playing with a certain leader, even when he's off the court. And then they look bad playing for another team.

Nice that you mentioned Kidd. He is the only case where I feel you can say it with 100% security. With him you really have proof that multiple teams improved drastically as soon as he joined. The impact he had on Dallas as a Rookie, then Phoenix, while they traded 3 rotation players for him and especially New Jersey, that went from a 26 win team to NBA finalist in the first season with him.

I can't really think of any other player that had such an immediate impact on multiple franchises.

[durden_tyler]

How much better did Jordan make Kwame Brown?

Kwame Brown was a hopeless case. LOL


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[durden_tyler]

This is being locked again because this will boil down to Jordan being the GOAT, then the LeBron nuthuggers will chime in.

On topic: this is about leadership, wanting to win at all cost and such— you could do it the **** way like Jordan did or silently like Tim Duncan did. Both ways are appreciated but the former can never be done again since we are in the soft generation of the NBA.


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[NoStatsGuy]

One of my criteria is to omit records. If he plays longer than all those players, then it goes to reason he will have more assists, but to claim his passing is the equivalent of Kidd or Magic is just being disingenuous. Magic stopped playing in his early 30s; Lebron is still playing close to 40. Claiming he has a record number of assist doesn't mean jack squat. It just means he's an old fart who played longer than anybody on that list

If you look at the average assists per game,LBJ is still higher for any not PG of all-time

That’s because his APG totals have been cooked for his entire career. He’s credited with 2-3 phantom assists almost every game. His career average should be closer to 5 APG instead of 7+. Lebron would get credited for an assist if he inbounded the ball to a teammate who sank a full court heave two seconds before the halftime buzzer.

yea of course and same goes for his rings, phantom championships that he just gets given. In reality jordan won all these and hes still winning every ring to this day. idk why these other dumb fans dont see it.right?