RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[bledredwine]

I'm a huge Jordan fan, but I disagree with your insistence that this is thread worthy vs the stickied thread that's the same conversations your entire account seems to be based on. Go watch Frozen and let it go, homie! Times change and younger people like the other guy better. It's ok. It's totally ok. Go Bulls.

I think that this is the third time he's turned one of my posts into an entire thread

[One_and_Done]

Tonnes of guys did.

[Hellcrooner]

.92-93 :57-25
93-94 : 55-27

Two wins.
Thas how much better jordan made his teamates.

Oh yeah, aND REFS HAD TO ROB BLIND THE BULLS VS THE KNICKS otherwise they would have reached the finals ( i guess they would have lost with rockets but whatever).

[Slimjimzv]

As someone who still thinks MJ is the goat, it's bizarre to say that he had a positive impact on his teammates. Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Walton, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and many, many, many others were MUCH more impactful in terms of making their teammates better than MJ.

[MavsDirk41]

.92-93 :57-25
93-94 : 55-27

Two wins.
Thas how much better jordan made his teamates.

Oh yeah, aND REFS HAD TO ROB BLIND THE BULLS VS THE KNICKS otherwise they would have reached the finals ( i guess they would have lost with rockets but whatever).

How were the Bulls looking in 94/95 before he came back out of retirement? Pretty sure they were 34-31. Pretty sure they finished 13-4 after he joined them that year. Correct me if im wrong.

And im sure Pippen leads them to a second 3 peat if Jordan never came back out of retirement right?

[Stan]

Isn't being the considered GOAT by the majority of fans good enough? Do we really need to pretend this dude who was punching teammates in the face and is disliked by so many of his former teammates was the best teammate ever?

Maybe, just maybe, he had a phenomenal supporting cast around him that was capable of winning 55 games without him.

[bkkrh]

.92-93 :57-25
93-94 : 55-27

Two wins.
Thas how much better jordan made his teamates.

Oh yeah, aND REFS HAD TO ROB BLIND THE BULLS VS THE KNICKS otherwise they would have reached the finals ( i guess they would have lost with rockets but whatever).

How were the Bulls looking in 94/95 before he came back out of retirement? Pretty sure they were 34-31. Pretty sure they finished 13-4 after he joined them that year. Correct me if im wrong.

And im sure Pippen leads them to a second 3 peat if Jordan never came back out of retirement right?

Well in the second season they also had lost Horace Grant and got no replacement for him. Horace Grant then went on to average 18 points amd 11 rebounds on 65 FG Percentage against them in the Playoffs. So yes, they couldn't compensate to lose their best and 3rd best player from their first 3 peat and were accordingly a low playoff seat.

Pippen doesn't lead the Bulls to a 2nd 3 peat with Kukoc and BJ Armstrong as their 2nd and 3rd best player. Neither does Jordan, he also needed Pippen and Rodman for that. If you give Pippen Rodman and another player that is a constant All NBA 1st and All Defense 1st player as Jordan had in him (which at that time means Olajuwon, David Robinson, or Gary Payton) it's not that unrealistic to assume he wins 2-3 in a row.

[ConSarnit]

Jordan was not a good leader. How do we know? Because no one ever talks about Jordan’s “great leadership” outside of the years when he himself was at his peak. The Bulls success was largely due to his insane talent and will to win. No one thinks he was a great leader with the Wizards, in fact he gets criticized for how he handled Kwame Brown. Where are the stories about his great leadership of the Hornets?

Good leaders know that some people need the carrot and some need the stick. Jordan only knew how to use the stick. If you want to see what a good leader looks like look at Phil Jackson who would buy each player books based on their personality and how he thought it might benefit them. Jordan would have given everyone the same book: “Work harder and stop crying you little b*tch”

[Slimjimzv]

Jordan was not a good leader. How do we know? Because no one ever talks about Jordan’s “great leadership” outside of the years when he himself was at his peak. The Bulls success was largely due to his insane talent and will to win. No one thinks he was a great leader with the Wizards, in fact he gets criticized for how he handled Kwame Brown. Where are the stories about his great leadership of the Hornets?

Good leaders know that some people need the carrot and some need the stick. Jordan only knew how to use the stick. If you want to see what a good leader looks like look at Phil Jackson who would buy each player books based on their personality and how he thought it might benefit them. Jordan would have given everyone the same book: “Work harder and stop crying you little b*tch”

Someone should probably write that book . . .

[MrBigShot]

Allen Iverson

[SelfishPlayer]

How much better did Jordan make Kwame Brown?

Kwame Brown was a hopeless case. LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whatever sort of credit people are looking to give Jordan for the success of his teammates, Jordan must receive that same credit for #1 overall pick Kwame Brown.

[MavsDirk41]

.92-93 :57-25
93-94 : 55-27

Two wins.
Thas how much better jordan made his teamates.

Oh yeah, aND REFS HAD TO ROB BLIND THE BULLS VS THE KNICKS otherwise they would have reached the finals ( i guess they would have lost with rockets but whatever).

How were the Bulls looking in 94/95 before he came back out of retirement? Pretty sure they were 34-31. Pretty sure they finished 13-4 after he joined them that year. Correct me if im wrong.

And im sure Pippen leads them to a second 3 peat if Jordan never came back out of retirement right?

Well in the second season they also had lost Horace Grant and got no replacement for him. Horace Grant then went on to average 18 points amd 11 rebounds on 65 FG Percentage against them in the Playoffs. So yes, they couldn't compensate to lose their best and 3rd best player from their first 3 peat and were accordingly a low playoff seat.

Pippen doesn't lead the Bulls to a 2nd 3 peat with Kukoc and BJ Armstrong as their 2nd and 3rd best player. Neither does Jordan, he also needed Pippen and Rodman for that. If you give Pippen Rodman and another player that is a constant All NBA 1st and All Defense 1st player as Jordan had in him (which at that time means Olajuwon, David Robinson, or Gary Payton) it's not that unrealistic to assume he wins 2-3 in a row.

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

[MavsDirk41]

Larry Bird is the answer though

[The Servant]

This Jordan stuff is so boring. Just glazing non stop. Who even cares? It's just so boring and repetitive. We get it, there was a guy who played bball in the 90s who was an athletic psycho who rattled off some chips.

[bkkrh]

How were the Bulls looking in 94/95 before he came back out of retirement? Pretty sure they were 34-31. Pretty sure they finished 13-4 after he joined them that year. Correct me if im wrong.

And im sure Pippen leads them to a second 3 peat if Jordan never came back out of retirement right?

Well in the second season they also had lost Horace Grant and got no replacement for him. Horace Grant then went on to average 18 points amd 11 rebounds on 65 FG Percentage against them in the Playoffs. So yes, they couldn't compensate to lose their best and 3rd best player from their first 3 peat and were accordingly a low playoff seat.

Pippen doesn't lead the Bulls to a 2nd 3 peat with Kukoc and BJ Armstrong as their 2nd and 3rd best player. Neither does Jordan, he also needed Pippen and Rodman for that. If you give Pippen Rodman and another player that is a constant All NBA 1st and All Defense 1st player as Jordan had in him (which at that time means Olajuwon, David Robinson, or Gary Payton) it's not that unrealistic to assume he wins 2-3 in a row.

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

Kukoc was on the 93/94 roster as well, it was his rookie season. And he wasn´t a player you could fully play at PF during that period.

Yes of course, if you add Jordan to that roster it is a better team. My point was replace Jordan with Pippen and leave everything else as it is, they still won´t be a contender. Give Pippen Rodman and a player that is also an All Defense 1st/All NBA 1st Player as he and Jordan were, they might also 3 peat.

[Uncle Mxy]

Allen Iverson

Indeed.

Watch on YouTube

[MavsDirk41]

Well in the second season they also had lost Horace Grant and got no replacement for him. Horace Grant then went on to average 18 points amd 11 rebounds on 65 FG Percentage against them in the Playoffs. So yes, they couldn't compensate to lose their best and 3rd best player from their first 3 peat and were accordingly a low playoff seat.

Pippen doesn't lead the Bulls to a 2nd 3 peat with Kukoc and BJ Armstrong as their 2nd and 3rd best player. Neither does Jordan, he also needed Pippen and Rodman for that. If you give Pippen Rodman and another player that is a constant All NBA 1st and All Defense 1st player as Jordan had in him (which at that time means Olajuwon, David Robinson, or Gary Payton) it's not that unrealistic to assume he wins 2-3 in a row.

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

Kukoc was on the 93/94 roster as well, it was his rookie season. And he wasn´t a player you could fully play at PF during that period.

Yes of course, if you add Jordan to that roster it is a better team. My point was replace Jordan with Pippen and leave everything else as it is, they still won´t be a contender. Give Pippen Rodman and a player that is also an All Defense 1st/All NBA 1st Player as he and Jordan were, they might also 3 peat.

Yea you are right about Kukoc on the 93/94 Bulls. My bad on that. Kukoc was a 6’10” wing who was best operating on the perimeter. He wasnt a power forward like Grant. But the Bulls tried to supplement the loss of Grant with Kukoc.

Are you saying no Pippen but Jordan on the 94/95 Bulls roster? Well yea they needed both Jordan and Pippen to win a championship. I cant think of any player in nba history who won a championship without help. If you know of one that did, let me know lol

[MavsDirk41]

Well in the second season they also had lost Horace Grant and got no replacement for him. Horace Grant then went on to average 18 points amd 11 rebounds on 65 FG Percentage against them in the Playoffs. So yes, they couldn't compensate to lose their best and 3rd best player from their first 3 peat and were accordingly a low playoff seat.

Pippen doesn't lead the Bulls to a 2nd 3 peat with Kukoc and BJ Armstrong as their 2nd and 3rd best player. Neither does Jordan, he also needed Pippen and Rodman for that. If you give Pippen Rodman and another player that is a constant All NBA 1st and All Defense 1st player as Jordan had in him (which at that time means Olajuwon, David Robinson, or Gary Payton) it's not that unrealistic to assume he wins 2-3 in a row.

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

Kukoc was on the 93/94 roster as well, it was his rookie season. And he wasn´t a player you could fully play at PF during that period.

Yes of course, if you add Jordan to that roster it is a better team. My point was replace Jordan with Pippen and leave everything else as it is, they still won´t be a contender. Give Pippen Rodman and a player that is also an All Defense 1st/All NBA 1st Player as he and Jordan were, they might also 3 peat.

Forgot your other point. Pippen, Rodman, and another all defense/all nba player completing a 3 peat? I dont know maybe, but we do know that Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman won 3 in a row. Seems like you are trying to minimize Jordans importance for those Bulls teams for some reason. Jordan pretty much carried them in game 6 of the 98 finals with Pippen struggling with injury. Pippen also missed half the season. He was never the same after his back went out.

[bledredwine]

Olajuwon? Dude had 9 first round playoff exits in his career, 1 missed playoffs in his prime and got swept 4X. He couldn't make an All-NBA first team during the ages of 27, 28 or 29, couldn’t win an MVP or ring before age 30 and was in trade talks with Boston for Reggie Lewis. Brad Daugherty made the All-NBA Third team over him for Christ’s sake. He was a selfish head-case that faked injuries while missing the playoffs in his prime due to a contract dispute (while the doctors said there was nothing wrong him, BTW) He threw his teammates and coaches under the bus, cried during the ‘96 Olympics 'cause he wasn't getting touches and only won when Jordan was retired and the three-point line was shortened for his shooters during the most talent-starved period in NBA history since the merger. Get real.

Only won when Jordan retired? How could one claim jordan was retired when Hakeem was winning a title when there's footage of him falling flat on his face at mid court via a nick Anderson lynching as Orlando tossed he and Chicago outta the playoffs?

You know the same Orlando team Hakeem and Houston swept? Jordan retired to do what he mostly did vs Hakeem bat under .500 strike out and lose.

Couldn't get out the first round? How many of those times was he under .500 like Jordan's losing ballhogging self twice was?

When overrated MJ was forced to carry the load Hakeem was most of his prime, he had the Bulls headed nowhere fast.

Imagine having the NBAs leading rebounder alongside you and still finishing under.500 like what happened with one of Jordans Bulls?

Hakeem would never.

This is a very disingenuous post.

First, in 1995 the Bulls had a terrible record before Jordan joined. The games played with a rusty out of bball shape Jordan was like 13-4 as mentioned (forgot the exact record but way better)
Next, they went 72-10 the following season.

Finally, if you had watched those games vividly as a Bulls fan, you'd remember how much of a liability Dennis Rodman was on offense. Commentators would even say "A bit of a black hole on offense. You can't really pass it to him unless he's near the net." and things of that sort, so stating "Can't win without the greatest rebounder of all time" is a wild take.

Rodman is a phenomenal athlete and talent, but he was still a role player, with a very specific role; awesome rebounding and defense.

Next, just take a look at the Bulls records for all of those championship years.
72 wins, 69 wins, 62 wins.

All championships. Pretty good, isn't it?

So go ahead and name your favorite player and then provide evidence why Jordan is overrated to that player. I'm willing to bat as well. Usually, when a poster tries to state he's overrated, they end up coming up with excuses instead of facts because they are just upset at Jordan being commonly known as the GOAT.

Ask yourself if that's you or if there's evidence to him being overrated, because I'll tell you right now, he was a hell of a lot more skilled and fundamental than anyone in the league now.

And if you're trying to use 95' Jordan 20 games new into the league after a 2 year hiatus, or Jordan with cocaine addicts and no support "didn't make finals once!" arguments, then you really have nothing.

For the record, Hakeem is one of my favorite players, my choice for GOAT defender and is a top 7 all time great.

[bkkrh]

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

Kukoc was on the 93/94 roster as well, it was his rookie season. And he wasn´t a player you could fully play at PF during that period.

Yes of course, if you add Jordan to that roster it is a better team. My point was replace Jordan with Pippen and leave everything else as it is, they still won´t be a contender. Give Pippen Rodman and a player that is also an All Defense 1st/All NBA 1st Player as he and Jordan were, they might also 3 peat.

Yea you are right about Kukoc on the 93/94 Bulls. My bad on that. Kukoc was a 6’10” wing who was best operating on the perimeter. He wasnt a power forward like Grant. But the Bulls tried to supplement the loss of Grant with Kukoc.

Are you saying no Pippen but Jordan on the 94/95 Bulls roster? Well yea they needed both Jordan and Pippen to win a championship. I cant think of any player in nba history who won a championship without help. If you know of one that did, let me know lol

Yes exactly. And I agree with you, that was my point. I understood your original post kinda as you meaning Jordan was the only reason the Bulls weren´t a contender and the Pippen 3 peat part in a way that Jordan would be able to do that. But yes, then we are on the same page, because I see Basketball at a teamsport and think that there is often too much of a focus on a single player. Since you asked, I think your user name might be the player that won the title with the least help .