Josh Harris busting out the "Camden Sixers" threats

[Negrodamus]

Sorry for the semi tangent. I feel very passionate about our country’s horrific city planning and feel like it’s not even bipartisan issue; neither party particularly cares.

[Embiid P]

Everyone doesn’t need a car. In fact, most shouldn’t be driving.

And exactly who is to determine other peoples' "needs" and what activities others should and shouldn't be doing?

Fix and clean up the public transportation system and perhaps the problem will partly solve itself, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening anytime soon. People clearly feel a whole lot safer driving themselves, and I'm sure there are many city residents who travel and spend weekends at the Shore and other out of the city destinations.

It’s not my fault our local and federal govt are teeming with people trying to line their pockets while in office instead of doing what’s in the best interest for the general public.

You’ll be surprised to see that most massive stadiums (50k-100K) in Europe don’t have a 5000 car parking lot taking up the majority of a city’s “neighborhood” like we do (and weirdly celebrate at times).

But we’re at a point, like many issues in America, where we say “well driving is just part of America’s culture now. Nothing we can do!” as cities become more hostile to walk in and surburbs/rural areas become more soulless with less walkable options.


And I’m sure residents feel safer. They use their enormous vehicles to do the most aggressive and idiotic maneuvers on the road in the name of getting there slightly earlier. If we’re to continue letting people drive, the driving test should be at least 10x harder and required every 10 years. But the car lobby will never allow that because they got cars to sell.

Not just the car lobby. Also the fossil fuel and airline industries as they'd also be losing major money if the US were to implement a more robust and high speed public transit system like so many other countries have.

[mjkvol]

And I’m sure residents feel safer. They use their enormous vehicles to do the most aggressive and idiotic maneuvers on the road in the name of getting there slightly earlier. If we’re to continue letting people drive, the driving test should be at least 10x harder and required every 10 years. But the car lobby will never allow that because they got cars to sell.

I couldn't possibly agree more with this. I'm just not a believer in dictating what people can and can't do simply because it's a very slippery slope once that gets started. But the size of some of these vehicles, specifically the monster pickups, has gotten out of control - hell, they can't even fit in ordinary parking spots.

And driving has never been as pathetically bad and reckless, even in vehicles not 'monster truck' size. I would vote for a legitimate driving test once every five years, but as you said, it's a pipe dream.

[bball4life]

If the owner of the Redskins and Rangers successfully moves the Sixers to New Jersey, he’s the most hated sports owner in the history of Philadelphia.

Actually, it sounds like its the city that's the issue here. Harris is funding the whole stadium project. Philly, like some big cities, is a bureaucratic nightmare. This is a far cry from terrible owners like for the Oakland A's that does the bare minimum payroll, hasn't fielded a competitive team in decades, and bolts the city when they wouldn't pay for a new stadium.

[bball4life]

Also, for what it's worth, I've visited a lot of arenas and stadiums around the country. Philly's sports complex is absolutely one of the worst "areas". Its essentially a big, boring cement parking lot. Not only is there absolutely nothing to do that can be reached on foot (outside of the artificially placed "Live" building), but even though the complex is in the middle of nowhere, it takes hours to get out of there after a game due to the terrible routing of traffic and the like. I hate having to choose to leave a game early or spend 90 minutes in a traffic jam. I would embrace a new arena in Camden over the BS in south philly. BTW, a MASSIVE fan base for Philly teams lives in the south jersey area (about 2 million people I believe). Camden would be excellent for most of them.

[the_process]

Everyone doesn’t need a car. In fact, most shouldn’t be driving.

And exactly who is to determine other peoples' "needs" and what activities others should and shouldn't be doing?

Fix and clean up the public transportation system and perhaps the problem will partly solve itself, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening anytime soon. People clearly feel a whole lot safer driving themselves, and I'm sure there are many city residents who travel and spend weekends at the Shore and other out of the city destinations.

It’s not my fault our local and federal govt are teeming with people trying to line their pockets while in office instead of doing what’s in the best interest for the general public.

You’ll be surprised to see that most massive stadiums (50k-100K) in Europe don’t have a 5000 car parking lot taking up the majority of a city’s “neighborhood” like we do (and weirdly celebrate at times).

But we’re at a point, like many issues in America, where we say “well driving is just part of America’s culture now. Nothing we can do!” as cities become more hostile to walk in and surburbs/rural areas become more soulless with less walkable options.


And I’m sure residents feel safer. They use their enormous vehicles to do the most aggressive and idiotic maneuvers on the road in the name of getting there slightly earlier. If we’re to continue letting people drive, the driving test should be at least 10x harder and required every 10 years. But the car lobby will never allow that because they got cars to sell.

Most of Europe was built long before cars existed.

Disagree about cars.

I agree that city planning and civil engineering mostly sucks in America.

[Negrodamus]

And exactly who is to determine other peoples' "needs" and what activities others should and shouldn't be doing?

Fix and clean up the public transportation system and perhaps the problem will partly solve itself, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening anytime soon. People clearly feel a whole lot safer driving themselves, and I'm sure there are many city residents who travel and spend weekends at the Shore and other out of the city destinations.

It’s not my fault our local and federal govt are teeming with people trying to line their pockets while in office instead of doing what’s in the best interest for the general public.

You’ll be surprised to see that most massive stadiums (50k-100K) in Europe don’t have a 5000 car parking lot taking up the majority of a city’s “neighborhood” like we do (and weirdly celebrate at times).

But we’re at a point, like many issues in America, where we say “well driving is just part of America’s culture now. Nothing we can do!” as cities become more hostile to walk in and surburbs/rural areas become more soulless with less walkable options.


And I’m sure residents feel safer. They use their enormous vehicles to do the most aggressive and idiotic maneuvers on the road in the name of getting there slightly earlier. If we’re to continue letting people drive, the driving test should be at least 10x harder and required every 10 years. But the car lobby will never allow that because they got cars to sell.

Most of Europe was built long before cars existed.

Disagree about cars.

I agree that city planning and civil engineering mostly sucks in America.

Philadelphia was built long before cars. The car centric infrastructure isn’t even 100 years old.

I know I’m way more radical about cars because I know humans (myself included) are wholly ill equip to drive them: too emotional, terrible inherent vision, easily distracted. Almost every single traffic jam can be attributed to human behavior which is why despite adding lanes to enormous highways, there are still traffic jams. As long as humans are in control of the vehicles, it’s not going to be safe.

But it is convenient.

[M2J]

It’s not my fault our local and federal govt are teeming with people trying to line their pockets while in office instead of doing what’s in the best interest for the general public.

You’ll be surprised to see that most massive stadiums (50k-100K) in Europe don’t have a 5000 car parking lot taking up the majority of a city’s “neighborhood” like we do (and weirdly celebrate at times).

But we’re at a point, like many issues in America, where we say “well driving is just part of America’s culture now. Nothing we can do!” as cities become more hostile to walk in and surburbs/rural areas become more soulless with less walkable options.


And I’m sure residents feel safer. They use their enormous vehicles to do the most aggressive and idiotic maneuvers on the road in the name of getting there slightly earlier. If we’re to continue letting people drive, the driving test should be at least 10x harder and required every 10 years. But the car lobby will never allow that because they got cars to sell.

Most of Europe was built long before cars existed.

Disagree about cars.

I agree that city planning and civil engineering mostly sucks in America.

Philadelphia was built long before cars. The car centric infrastructure isn’t even 100 years old.

I know I’m way more radical about cars because I know humans (myself included) are wholly ill equip to drive them: too emotional, terrible inherent vision, easily distracted. Almost every single traffic jam can be attributed to human behavior which is why despite adding lanes to enormous highways, there are still traffic jams. As long as humans are in control of the vehicles, it’s not going to be safe.

But it is convenient.

With self driving cars becoming a real thing over the next decade.... Could be changing

Anyhow as I said about Chase arena, which has a less than 1000 car parking garage the city incentive is to have the bus fare included in the ticket and it works pretty well and those busses are pretty much just for those attendants, so a bit safer.

Seems like

Also, for what it's worth, I've visited a lot of arenas and stadiums around the country. Philly's sports complex is absolutely one of the worst "areas". Its essentially a big, boring cement parking lot. Not only is there absolutely nothing to do that can be reached on foot (outside of the artificially placed "Live" building), but even though the complex is in the middle of nowhere, it takes hours to get out of there after a game due to the terrible routing of traffic and the like. I hate having to choose to leave a game early or spend 90 minutes in a traffic jam. I would embrace a new arena in Camden over the BS in south philly. BTW, a MASSIVE fan base for Philly teams lives in the south jersey area (about 2 million people I believe). Camden would be excellent for most of them.

It's a tough call for the city, but short sighted if they don't allow it. Because right now they are benefitting just fine from the one arena without having to make drastic changes to the infrastructure. But losing what the Sixers bring if they move out would hurt. Not many individual major metro cities have two large arenas within city limits.... Comcast already has plans to majorly upgrade the existing arena, but the location isn't as good as what's being proposed. There's also the issue of the Sixers not having the ability to own the current arena. The Sixers new arena would instantly devalue what's existing.

The right thing to do is for the city to try to push Xfinity to allow Harris to purchase into the existing arena so that he can get some extra income. Or for Xfinity to give Harris a sweet deal as a tenant. Or for them both to build something downtown together.

[Jailblazers7]

Another reason to enhance driving requirements is that cars are getting bigger, heavier, and way faster with the transition to EVs. Cars are more dangerous than ever, which is why we’ve seen a spike in pedestrian deaths in the US.

I’ve lived in cities with good public transit and cities with bad public transit. Quality of life was significantly better in the places with good public transit. Cheaper/easier to get around & I felt way more connected to the city because I was consistently interacting with people on the bus/train.

[youngcrev]

And I’m sure residents feel safer. They use their enormous vehicles to do the most aggressive and idiotic maneuvers on the road in the name of getting there slightly earlier. If we’re to continue letting people drive, the driving test should be at least 10x harder and required every 10 years. But the car lobby will never allow that because they got cars to sell.

I couldn't possibly agree more with this. I'm just not a believer in dictating what people can and can't do simply because it's a very slippery slope once that gets started. But the size of some of these vehicles, specifically the monster pickups, has gotten out of control - hell, they can't even fit in ordinary parking spots.

And driving has never been as pathetically bad and reckless, even in vehicles not 'monster truck' size. I would vote for a legitimate driving test once every five years, but as you said, it's a pipe dream.

**** that. I'm not going to the DMV every 5 years. I've been actively avoiding getting my "real ID" because I don't feel like dealing with it.

I feel like half the drivers in Philly don't even have insurance (hyperbole, obviously, but there's a lot). You really think they're gonna care about getting a licence renewal?

People have been driving like morons in the city for as long as I can remember.

And yet I rarely if ever see people getting pulled over, at least not for traffic violations. So how's this getting enforced? Not to pull from the gun nut rhetoric, but you'd mostly just be penalizing/inconveniencing the wrong people.

... regardless, if this originated with the city needing to make an investment in improving/cleaning up/making safer public transit, I whole heartedly agree. And not just for the stadiums, although that's where I feel it the most when I'm sitting on the exit ramp and getting cut off 100x. But parking is a nightmare everywhere in the city except like.. the zoo?

[youngcrev]

Also, for what it's worth, I've visited a lot of arenas and stadiums around the country. Philly's sports complex is absolutely one of the worst "areas". Its essentially a big, boring cement parking lot. Not only is there absolutely nothing to do that can be reached on foot (outside of the artificially placed "Live" building), but even though the complex is in the middle of nowhere, it takes hours to get out of there after a game due to the terrible routing of traffic and the like. I hate having to choose to leave a game early or spend 90 minutes in a traffic jam. I would embrace a new arena in Camden over the BS in south philly. BTW, a MASSIVE fan base for Philly teams lives in the south jersey area (about 2 million people I believe). Camden would be excellent for most of them.

I'm not fully convinced getting out of Camden would be much more convenient. I can't remember if getting out of (insert whatever that concert venue is called now) is that much better, plus you're talking a lot more people trying to do it.

[mjkvol]

And I’m sure residents feel safer. They use their enormous vehicles to do the most aggressive and idiotic maneuvers on the road in the name of getting there slightly earlier. If we’re to continue letting people drive, the driving test should be at least 10x harder and required every 10 years. But the car lobby will never allow that because they got cars to sell.

I couldn't possibly agree more with this. I'm just not a believer in dictating what people can and can't do simply because it's a very slippery slope once that gets started. But the size of some of these vehicles, specifically the monster pickups, has gotten out of control - hell, they can't even fit in ordinary parking spots.

And driving has never been as pathetically bad and reckless, even in vehicles not 'monster truck' size. I would vote for a legitimate driving test once every five years, but as you said, it's a pipe dream.

**** that. I'm not going to the DMV every 5 years. I've been actively avoiding getting my "real ID" because I don't feel like dealing with it.

I feel like half the drivers in Philly don't even have insurance (hyperbole, obviously, but there's a lot). You really think they're gonna care about getting a licence renewal?

People have been driving like morons in the city for as long as I can remember.

And yet I rarely if ever see people getting pulled over, at least not for traffic violations. So how's this getting enforced? Not to pull from the gun nut rhetoric, but you'd mostly just be penalizing/inconveniencing the wrong people.

... regardless, if this originated with the city needing to make an investment in improving/cleaning up/making safer public transit, I whole heartedly agree. And not just for the stadiums, although that's where I feel it the most when I'm sitting on the exit ramp and getting cut off 100x. But parking is a nightmare everywhere in the city except like.. the zoo?

I was being a bit facetious with the 5-year driver test, but as you said there is zero enforcement of reckless driving or tailgating (which is allegedly a violation but which 80% of the cars on the road do every day). And even if they took them, driver tests would do little if any good.

The chances of the kind of investment that would be required to fix the public transit system is another pipe dream. Any politician that advocated a big tax hike dedicated to making that investment would get crucified, and rightly so, because after everyone's pockets were lined, it would most likely be just another project kicked down the road.

[bball4life]

Also, for what it's worth, I've visited a lot of arenas and stadiums around the country. Philly's sports complex is absolutely one of the worst "areas". Its essentially a big, boring cement parking lot. Not only is there absolutely nothing to do that can be reached on foot (outside of the artificially placed "Live" building), but even though the complex is in the middle of nowhere, it takes hours to get out of there after a game due to the terrible routing of traffic and the like. I hate having to choose to leave a game early or spend 90 minutes in a traffic jam. I would embrace a new arena in Camden over the BS in south philly. BTW, a MASSIVE fan base for Philly teams lives in the south jersey area (about 2 million people I believe). Camden would be excellent for most of them.

I'm not fully convinced getting out of Camden would be much more convenient. I can't remember if getting out of (insert whatever that concert venue is called now) is that much better, plus you're talking a lot more people trying to do it.

Oh, its no guarantee for sure. But if they did it right, they could have lanes onto the Ben, lanes onto 295 south and make it work. But worst case scenario its equally bad getting out. At least the sight lines from the stadium would be spectacular with the river and city scape in the background

[Negrodamus]

**** that. I'm not going to the DMV every 5 years. I've been actively avoiding getting my "real ID" because I don't feel like dealing with it.

I feel like half the drivers in Philly don't even have insurance (hyperbole, obviously, but there's a lot). You really think they're gonna care about getting a licence renewal?

People have been driving like morons in the city for as long as I can remember.

And yet I rarely if ever see people getting pulled over, at least not for traffic violations. So how's this getting enforced? Not to pull from the gun nut rhetoric, but you'd mostly just be penalizing/inconveniencing the wrong people.

... regardless, if this originated with the city needing to make an investment in improving/cleaning up/making safer public transit, I whole heartedly agree. And not just for the stadiums, although that's where I feel it the most when I'm sitting on the exit ramp and getting cut off 100x. But parking is a nightmare everywhere in the city except like.. the zoo?

Right, I understand the learned helplessness this city (and country for that matter) suffers from because the political machine keeps it that way.

Driving in this country is basically a game: the speed limit is x on this road, but you can go as fast as 120mph in this car… as long as you don’t get caught. They could honestly put speeding cameras, red light cameras, etc on every street if they wanted to, but they won’t. In parts of Europe, you’re not even allowed to drive in main parts of the city without getting a license (commercial or residential) that allows you access. That would mean Philadelphians could drive there, but remove **** drivers from Delaware, NJ, Maryland, etc. The situation would definitely be more manageable and would encourage the usage of public transit to come to our fairly walkable city.

There are options, but it shakes up status quo and will hurt re-elections. So don’t worry, any kind of restrictive measures towards driving in the city likely will never come; you don’t have to worry about going to the DMV.

[youngcrev]

**** that. I'm not going to the DMV every 5 years. I've been actively avoiding getting my "real ID" because I don't feel like dealing with it.

I feel like half the drivers in Philly don't even have insurance (hyperbole, obviously, but there's a lot). You really think they're gonna care about getting a licence renewal?

People have been driving like morons in the city for as long as I can remember.

And yet I rarely if ever see people getting pulled over, at least not for traffic violations. So how's this getting enforced? Not to pull from the gun nut rhetoric, but you'd mostly just be penalizing/inconveniencing the wrong people.

... regardless, if this originated with the city needing to make an investment in improving/cleaning up/making safer public transit, I whole heartedly agree. And not just for the stadiums, although that's where I feel it the most when I'm sitting on the exit ramp and getting cut off 100x. But parking is a nightmare everywhere in the city except like.. the zoo?

Right, I understand the learned helplessness this city (and country for that matter) suffers from because the political machine keeps it that way.

Driving in this country is basically a game: the speed limit is x on this road, but you can go as fast as 120mph in this car… as long as you don’t get caught. They could honestly put speeding cameras, red light cameras, etc on every street if they wanted to, but they won’t. In parts of Europe, you’re not even allowed to drive in main parts of the city without getting a license (commercial or residential) that allows you access. That would mean Philadelphians could drive there, but remove **** drivers from Delaware, NJ, Maryland, etc. The situation would definitely be more manageable and would encourage the usage of public transit to come to our fairly walkable city.

There are options, but it shakes up status quo and will hurt re-elections. So don’t worry, any kind of restrictive measures towards driving in the city likely will never come; you don’t have to worry about going to the DMV.

The political machine that you're suggesting we feed more into?

I see that you're passionate about the subject... but I don't think the majority of people want what you're proposing, and even less when you factor how much such an investment would cost.

Want more people to use public transit? Clean up public transit! I'm sure plenty of people would prefer that for a night on the town or heading to the stadiums over sitting in traffic and hunting/paying for parking if they felt it was convenient and safe.

[Negrodamus]

**** that. I'm not going to the DMV every 5 years. I've been actively avoiding getting my "real ID" because I don't feel like dealing with it.

I feel like half the drivers in Philly don't even have insurance (hyperbole, obviously, but there's a lot). You really think they're gonna care about getting a licence renewal?

People have been driving like morons in the city for as long as I can remember.

And yet I rarely if ever see people getting pulled over, at least not for traffic violations. So how's this getting enforced? Not to pull from the gun nut rhetoric, but you'd mostly just be penalizing/inconveniencing the wrong people.

... regardless, if this originated with the city needing to make an investment in improving/cleaning up/making safer public transit, I whole heartedly agree. And not just for the stadiums, although that's where I feel it the most when I'm sitting on the exit ramp and getting cut off 100x. But parking is a nightmare everywhere in the city except like.. the zoo?

Right, I understand the learned helplessness this city (and country for that matter) suffers from because the political machine keeps it that way.

Driving in this country is basically a game: the speed limit is x on this road, but you can go as fast as 120mph in this car… as long as you don’t get caught. They could honestly put speeding cameras, red light cameras, etc on every street if they wanted to, but they won’t. In parts of Europe, you’re not even allowed to drive in main parts of the city without getting a license (commercial or residential) that allows you access. That would mean Philadelphians could drive there, but remove **** drivers from Delaware, NJ, Maryland, etc. The situation would definitely be more manageable and would encourage the usage of public transit to come to our fairly walkable city.

There are options, but it shakes up status quo and will hurt re-elections. So don’t worry, any kind of restrictive measures towards driving in the city likely will never come; you don’t have to worry about going to the DMV.

The political machine that you're suggesting we feed more into?

I see that you're passionate about the subject... but I don't think the majority of people want what you're proposing, and even less when you factor how much such an investment would cost.

Want more people to use public transit? Clean up public transit! I'm sure plenty of people would prefer that for a night on the town or heading to the stadiums over sitting in traffic and hunting/paying for parking if they felt it was convenient and safe.

I know they don’t want what I’m suggesting because most aren’t aware of what the alternative would look like. Instead they want perceived improvements within the deeply flawed system currently in place.

The residents of Paris didn’t want the massive overhaul to the city to improve infrastructure back in the late 1800s. People were furious that it’ll remove the historical ambiance of the city. Now it’s revered as one of the greatest cities in the world.

Also, it’s clear that most Philadelphians think driving in the city sucks. Even walking/biking is a bit of a drag because of the insane drivers and the 4 wheelers/dirt bikers having no regard for pedestrians. Didn’t a doctor just get killed while biking in Rittenhouse? That’s insane to me.

[youngcrev]

I know they don’t want what I’m suggesting because most aren’t aware of what the alternative would look like. Instead they want perceived improvements within the deeply flawed system currently in place.

The residents of Paris didn’t want the massive overhaul to the city to improve infrastructure back in the late 1800s. People were furious that it’ll remove the historical ambiance of the city. Now it’s revered as one of the greatest cities in the world.

Also, it’s clear that most Philadelphians think driving in the city sucks. Even walking/biking is a bit of a drag because of the insane drivers and the 4 wheelers/dirt bikers having no regard for pedestrians. Didn’t a doctor just get killed while biking in Rittenhouse? That’s insane to me.

Driving in the city does suck. Parking is even worse.
I'm not against an overhaul to the cities infrastructure... I'm just not convinced a massive investment in speed/red light cameras would do all that much to fix that. Aren't there already red light cameras in Rittenhouse? Aren't the 4 wheelers/dirt bikes already not street legal?

But maybe I'm wrong. Camden has supposedly had success with their surveillance, maybe that's the model to look at.

[Sixerscan]

If we're talking about people coming from outside the city we're generally talking about regional rail as the public transit not the subway? They can and should do stuff to improve RR generally, and I get wanting the privacy and autonomy of your car especially if you don't ever do public transit normally, but it's not inherently unsafe or anything. I've taken it all hours of the day and night including coming back from games and the worst thing that's happened is like someone playing music loudly or something.

[Negrodamus]

I know they don’t want what I’m suggesting because most aren’t aware of what the alternative would look like. Instead they want perceived improvements within the deeply flawed system currently in place.

The residents of Paris didn’t want the massive overhaul to the city to improve infrastructure back in the late 1800s. People were furious that it’ll remove the historical ambiance of the city. Now it’s revered as one of the greatest cities in the world.

Also, it’s clear that most Philadelphians think driving in the city sucks. Even walking/biking is a bit of a drag because of the insane drivers and the 4 wheelers/dirt bikers having no regard for pedestrians. Didn’t a doctor just get killed while biking in Rittenhouse? That’s insane to me.

Driving in the city does suck. Parking is even worse.
I'm not against an overhaul to the cities infrastructure... I'm just not convinced a massive investment in speed/red light cameras would do all that much to fix that. Aren't there already red light cameras in Rittenhouse? Aren't the 4 wheelers/dirt bikes already not street legal?

But maybe I'm wrong. Camden has supposedly had success with their surveillance, maybe that's the model to look at.

City council getting together for their yearly infrastructure discussion:

[Negrodamus]

If we're talking about people coming from outside the city we're generally talking about regional rail as the public transit not the subway? They can and should do stuff to improve RR generally, and I get wanting the privacy and autonomy of your car especially if you don't ever do public transit normally, but it's not inherently unsafe or anything. I've taken it all hours of the day and night including coming back from games and the worst thing that's happened is like someone playing music loudly or something.

People ripping cigs is my least favorite experience.