ayton to atl (with tor)

[DeBlazerRiddem]

that perspective fails because we don't really know how much value Phoenix assigned to Grayson Allen, but it was likely quite a bit. And it was Dame's value that leveraged Allen away from the Bucks. It's probably the case that without Allen the Suns would NOT have agreed to move Camara. Also, it was Dame's outgoing salary that made the Nurkic for Ayton swap possible

I thought we didn't even tell the Suns who they were getting besides Nurkic because we were trying to keep the deal hush hush for Milwaukee, we just told the Suns an approximate salary and position.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/19arlgc/hoop_collective_windhorst_talking_to_the_suns_it/

I don't think that changes anything. The Suns needed back court help and they needed an incoming salary to meet CBA rules. So did the Blazers

Well it suggests that Grayson Allen himself specifically was not that important to the trade... More like a cherry on top

[Wizenheimer]

Yes and no. It was all 1 larger trade obviously, but from a Blazers perspective, you could break it down as Nurkic, Little, and Keon for Ayton and Camara, and then Dame for 2029 Bucks 1st, 2029 Celtics first, 2025 14th pick, 2028 Bucks Swap, 2030 Bucks swap, and Brogdon (or that second portion updated after that draft as Lillard for Deni Avdija, a 2029 first, 2028 Bucks swap, 2030 Bucks swap).

that perspective fails because we don't really know how much value Phoenix assigned to Grayson Allen, but it was likely quite a bit. And it was Dame's value that leveraged Allen away from the Bucks. It's probably the case that without Allen the Suns would NOT have agreed to move Camara. Also, it was Dame's outgoing salary that made the Nurkic for Ayton swap possible

As you said, we can’t really know how much value was assigned to each player. So if that is true, then how can you indicate a Nurkic for Ayton swap shouldn’t have been done as if that was a mistake without looking at the whole trade?

you've lost me here

What I'm saying is that the Nurkic for Ayton swap was dumb because Ayton's salary is twice as much and, at best, it was a lateral move

[Myth]

that perspective fails because we don't really know how much value Phoenix assigned to Grayson Allen, but it was likely quite a bit. And it was Dame's value that leveraged Allen away from the Bucks. It's probably the case that without Allen the Suns would NOT have agreed to move Camara. Also, it was Dame's outgoing salary that made the Nurkic for Ayton swap possible

As you said, we can’t really know how much value was assigned to each player. So if that is true, then how can you indicate a Nurkic for Ayton swap shouldn’t have been done as if that was a mistake without looking at the whole trade?

you've lost me here

What I'm saying is that the Nurkic for Ayton swap was dumb because Ayton's salary is twice as much and, at best, it was a lateral move

But the trade as a whole may not have happened without that swap, and there were other parts of the trade that made it worth it. We can’t view that swap in a vacuum.

[Wizenheimer]

I thought we didn't even tell the Suns who they were getting besides Nurkic because we were trying to keep the deal hush hush for Milwaukee, we just told the Suns an approximate salary and position.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/19arlgc/hoop_collective_windhorst_talking_to_the_suns_it/

I don't think that changes anything. The Suns needed back court help and they needed an incoming salary to meet CBA rules. So did the Blazers

Well it suggests that Grayson Allen himself specifically was not that important to the trade... More like a cherry on top

ok...walk that logic down the path a little further

what that would mean is that Portland traded Damian Lillard for Deni Avdija, Robert Williams, quite possibly a non lottery 1st round pick in 2029, and a couple of swaps. That's a pretty weak return for arguably the best player in franchise history

[Skybox]

I keep coming back to ATL as a spot for Ayton. He’s GOT to be featured in the offense or he won’t play…but he’s an immense, young skilled guy. He and Trae could, maybe be the foundation for an amazing PnR system…surrounded by shooters & defenders.

Any other good team, with established offensive players, probably isn’t a good fit. It’s certainly pandering to a bad behavior…but it is what it is- Ayton, thus far, just hasn’t been a humble teammate - but he’s definitely capable of putting up numbers. Maybe a little progress will turn him towards winning basketball. Maybe not. ATL is floundering a bit, searching for identity…Trae/Ayton might be a new foundation…they DO have quite a bit of talent- they just seem rudderless.

[BK_2020]

Ayton has never been featured on offense in his 6-year career and he's played 403 games. Clearly he's not someone who simply will not play if he's not featured on offense. He's also played on teams with established offensive players. What he's never done is put up numbers as the centerpiece of an offense, which according to the lot of you is the only role he's capable of doing.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

FWIW I havent really heard any grumblings from Ayton while in Portland. Early in the season he was having a tough transition, sleeping on a blow up mattress lol and not getting the kind of touches we thought he would and no indication he checked out on the team or wasn't humble about it. He did have a larger role later in the season, he was playing with g leaguers tho, so I doubt that stretch helped his analytic impact. I think his main 'character' issues were specifically with how the PHX coaching and front office treated him, and that hasn't seemed to carry over to his new home (yet, at least).

In fact last year was so tragic all around from injury and inconsistency and coaching inadequacy and intentional tanking that I personally think most of our players were made to look worse than they are, vets had their value diminished and young players had their development delayed by not being put in a position to succeed. I'm sure others will think that is just me wearing rose colored glasses but suffice to say it will be a happy day when we get a new HC in PDX. It's like spending $100 million but ending up with production worth closer to $60 million (if that) because you handicap your players with a rookie coach.

[R-DAWG]

Swap that from Onyeka going out to Capela going out instead and we can talk.

I was thinking the same thing. This essentially becomes a Ayton for Hunter swap - two players who have been disappointing over the past few years as they enter their primes.

I think Ayton is nice low risk gamble for ATL, and I can see a world where he and OO share the floor for 15 MPG and one of them is on the floor at all times.

[R-DAWG]

Ayton has never been featured on offense in his 6-year career and he's played 403 games. Clearly he's not someone who simply will not play if he's not featured on offense. He's also played on teams with established offensive players. What he's never done is put up numbers as the centerpiece of an offense, which according to the lot of you is the only role he's capable of doing.

Ayton could become the #2 option in a base lineup that features Trae, Reschiere and Johnson. Mix and match Daniels and Okongwu depending on matchups with Bogdonovic as the 6th man/second perimeter spring option. I kind of like this

[JRoy]

I don't think that changes anything. The Suns needed back court help and they needed an incoming salary to meet CBA rules. So did the Blazers

Well it suggests that Grayson Allen himself specifically was not that important to the trade... More like a cherry on top

ok...walk that logic down the path a little further

what that would mean is that Portland traded Damian Lillard for Deni Avdija, Robert Williams, quite possibly a non lottery 1st round pick in 2029, and a couple of swaps. That's a pretty weak return for arguably the best player in franchise history

What the return for Drexler?

Wasn’t it Otis Thorpe and Tracy Murray?

[Wizenheimer]

Wasn’t it Otis Thorpe and Tracy Murray?

not quite....Murray was actually traded with Drexler to Houston

Portland got Thorpe, a 1st (1995 - #19 = Randolph Childress), and a 2nd

Blazers actually did a solid for Drexler in trading him to his hometown. Pretty clearly, Lillard feels like Cronin lied to him about what he intended

[JRoy]

Wasn’t it Otis Thorpe and Tracy Murray?

not quite....Murray was actually traded with Drexler to Houston

Portland got Thorpe, a 1st (1995 - #19 = Randolph Childress), and a 2nd

Blazers actually did a solid for Drexler in trading him to his hometown. Pretty clearly, Lillard feels like Cronin lied to him about what he intended

Thanks, it’s been 30 years.

I thought Childress might be good. Oops.

[Threezus]

Ayton has never been featured on offense in his 6-year career and he's played 403 games. Clearly he's not someone who simply will not play if he's not featured on offense. He's also played on teams with established offensive players. What he's never done is put up numbers as the centerpiece of an offense, which according to the lot of you is the only role he's capable of doing.

Ayton could become the #2 option in a base lineup that features Trae, Reschiere and Johnson. Mix and match Daniels and Okongwu depending on matchups with Bogdonovic as the 6th man/second perimeter spring option. I kind of like this

I wouldn't say #2 option as JJ would easily be that. JJ honestly is imo the most talented and upside player on the team and that includes Trae. He should 100% be a major focal point of our offense and team going forward. When he got a chance to start and really shine towards the last 20 to 25 games or so before his injury near the end of the season. He had about half of his games going for close to or over 20+ 10+ 5+ with a few blocks and steals here and there. Risacher and ayton should be fighting for that #3/4 spot for touches.

Also of note JJ has been training with Lebron and his team as well learning from the goat. Thats his protege like a mini bron and the son he's never had XD Book it next year Lebron comes to Atlanta to play with his real nba son LOL.

[zzaj]

People here talking about ATL and featuring Ayton on offense...

The issue here is Ayton (at least so far) hasn't really shown the ability to be flexible within offensive sets. He doesn't work in PnR or PnP because his picks suck, and he hasn't really shown range to the 3pt line. That right there is enough to kill most offensive sets involving a Center in the modern NBA.

If ATL was willing to draft and feature sets around setting up Ayton as a face up shooter in the mid-post or from 15 feet while everyone stands around then you'd have something--but so far, no team has really shown a want to redesign their whole offensive system for that kind of weak play...and rightfully so.

The real issue with Ayton (IMO) is that he doesn't do enough to win possessions on both sides of the ball to warrant the contract he has, or his own "DominAyton" mindset.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Swap that from Onyeka going out to Capela going out instead and we can talk.

I was thinking the same thing. This essentially becomes a Ayton for Hunter swap - two players who have been disappointing over the past few years as they enter their primes.

I think Ayton is nice low risk gamble for ATL, and I can see a world where he and OO share the floor for 15 MPG and one of them is on the floor at all times.

Yeah the trade to make for Atlanta would be Hunter/Clint for Ayton. OO's problem has been that he's likely better as a 4 next to a rangy, versatile 5 or vis/versa with some size. So he's not the best fit with Clint as a 4/5 combo, and I think overall, we lack size with him and JJ as the 4/5. Because of that, he hasn't been able to "earn" a starting role over anybody.

Ayton isn't rangy, but Ayton would at least allow us to see OO get more minutes as a 4 and play matchups better even if it's not the best offensive fit next to Ayton as the 4/5. Again, this probably works better as a matchup play where we want to avoid having JJ guarding a tough 4 or looking for a strong rebounding unit.

I wouldn't mind a low risk gamble on Ayton. Worst case scenario, he's an expiring in 2025 and a warm body against bigger 5's.

[raleigh]

OO's problem has been that he's likely better as a 4 next to a rangy, versatile 5

Okongwu is a 5. No, he's not a particularly tall one, but his intelligence, strength, and wingspan more than make up for that.