Monitoring the Trade: Rob Dillingham for Jakob Poeltl

[Duffman100]

So many of the trade/Masai defenders keep saying "it's easy to say it is bad in hindsight" ignoring that a huge amount of people were calling it bad, day 1.

I didn't like this trade before or after it happened.

But using the "multiple people were calling it bad day 1" isn't a great argument. Huge amount of people called the Scottie Barnes pick terrible as well. Along with countless of other moves that ended up being good.

Doesn't change them being right though, a fair amount of analysts said the same.

And again, if those same people said it was bad before, you don't get to use hindsight as a blanket defence. People can be right and wrong about multiple things, I was wrongfully unhappy with the Scottie pick (for about 10min until I got to see him post draft) because it seemed redundant to grab another 4 when we had Siakam, and we needed a PG. Made a lot of sense at the time, but they went with BPA.

This is not the same, this was a trade for an established player and you knew what you were getting. The draft was a player who turned into much more than they initially looked to be. People are wrong about drafted players all the time, and thats pretty understandable. But established players, no that's pretty straight forward.

We knew the core, we knew the team, and we knew the player, these are not similar situations.

The situation (draft vs trade) may have been different. But the doom predications are the same and often from the same people. So that's why the argument falls flat.

If I say everything move is made is bad, eventually I'm going to be right about a few. And especially with this forum which is overwhelmingly inundated with "this move was awful, Masai is washed" type posts.

[Scase]

I didn't like this trade before or after it happened.

But using the "multiple people were calling it bad day 1" isn't a great argument. Huge amount of people called the Scottie Barnes pick terrible as well. Along with countless of other moves that ended up being good.

Doesn't change them being right though, a fair amount of analysts said the same.

And again, if those same people said it was bad before, you don't get to use hindsight as a blanket defence. People can be right and wrong about multiple things, I was wrongfully unhappy with the Scottie pick (for about 10min until I got to see him post draft) because it seemed redundant to grab another 4 when we had Siakam, and we needed a PG. Made a lot of sense at the time, but they went with BPA.

This is not the same, this was a trade for an established player and you knew what you were getting. The draft was a player who turned into much more than they initially looked to be. People are wrong about drafted players all the time, and thats pretty understandable. But established players, no that's pretty straight forward.

We knew the core, we knew the team, and we knew the player, these are not similar situations.

The situation (draft vs trade) may have been different. But the doom predications are the same and often from the same people. So that's why the argument falls flat.

If I say everything move is made is bad, eventually I'm going to be right about a few. And especially with this forum which is overwhelmingly inundated with "this move was awful, Masai is washed" type posts.

They were still right, and it's not hindsight. Nothing you said changed that, just because you have preconceived biases against people doesn't change anything.

Broken clock etc. Doesn't mean they weren't/arent right.

[Duffman100]

Doesn't change them being right though, a fair amount of analysts said the same.

And again, if those same people said it was bad before, you don't get to use hindsight as a blanket defence. People can be right and wrong about multiple things, I was wrongfully unhappy with the Scottie pick (for about 10min until I got to see him post draft) because it seemed redundant to grab another 4 when we had Siakam, and we needed a PG. Made a lot of sense at the time, but they went with BPA.

This is not the same, this was a trade for an established player and you knew what you were getting. The draft was a player who turned into much more than they initially looked to be. People are wrong about drafted players all the time, and thats pretty understandable. But established players, no that's pretty straight forward.

We knew the core, we knew the team, and we knew the player, these are not similar situations.

The situation (draft vs trade) may have been different. But the doom predications are the same and often from the same people. So that's why the argument falls flat.

If I say everything move is made is bad, eventually I'm going to be right about a few. And especially with this forum which is overwhelmingly inundated with "this move was awful, Masai is washed" type posts.

They were still right, and it's not hindsight. Nothing you said changed that, just because you have preconceived biases against people doesn't change anything.

Broken clock etc. Doesn't mean they weren't/arent right.

Right. So call everything bad, pat yourself on the back for the bad things but ignore all the times you were wrong.

I'm not really sure I follow that logic.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

The situation (draft vs trade) may have been different. But the doom predications are the same and often from the same people. So that's why the argument falls flat.

If I say everything move is made is bad, eventually I'm going to be right about a few. And especially with this forum which is overwhelmingly inundated with "this move was awful, Masai is washed" type posts.

They were still right, and it's not hindsight. Nothing you said changed that, just because you have preconceived biases against people doesn't change anything.

Broken clock etc. Doesn't mean they weren't/arent right.

Right. So call everything bad, pat yourself on the back for the bad things but ignore all the times you were wrong.

I'm not really sure I follow that logic.

Not everything is bad. They found Scottie Barnes and Masai supposedly intervened to make sure Bobby Webster and co. don't take Jalen Suggs over him. The issue is that there has been too much evidence of bias towards African and Canadian players which is a dangerous way of going about business especially if these biases materialize more and more. There's also evidence of excessive patience which is not good - while some degree of patience is, excessive patience just means missed opportunities and the FO has also used the term patience to distract from the overvaluing of their own players which has limited what they've been able to achieve in terms of roster construction. Then you have Masai saying "I need to be more involved" which is admitting he kicked his feet up on his desk and became complacent after 2019.

Overall the Raps FO in recent times hasn't been as bad as some other ones for sure. But therein lies the problem - by being neither awful nor great they are also shooting themselves in the foot and limiting their access to young talent which limits Masai's usefulness since his calling card according to many is player evaluation.

[Scase]

The situation (draft vs trade) may have been different. But the doom predications are the same and often from the same people. So that's why the argument falls flat.

If I say everything move is made is bad, eventually I'm going to be right about a few. And especially with this forum which is overwhelmingly inundated with "this move was awful, Masai is washed" type posts.

They were still right, and it's not hindsight. Nothing you said changed that, just because you have preconceived biases against people doesn't change anything.

Broken clock etc. Doesn't mean they weren't/arent right.

Right. So call everything bad, pat yourself on the back for the bad things but ignore all the times you were wrong.

I'm not really sure I follow that logic.

Right, so suggest that everyone always says everything is bad and ignore all context.

Not sure I follow your logic.

People said the trade was bad.
It was a bad trade.
That is not hindsight.
Your bias doesn't change what people said.
Reality exists.

[Duffman100]

[youtube][/youtube]

They were still right, and it's not hindsight. Nothing you said changed that, just because you have preconceived biases against people doesn't change anything.

Broken clock etc. Doesn't mean they weren't/arent right.

Right. So call everything bad, pat yourself on the back for the bad things but ignore all the times you were wrong.

I'm not really sure I follow that logic.

Right, so suggest that everyone always says everything is bad and ignore all context.

Not sure I follow your logic.

People said the trade was bad.
It was a bad trade.
That is not hindsight.
Your bias doesn't change what people said.
Reality exists.

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

you know maybe Masai wheels and deals his way to a point where he builds the value of the roster and can trade assets for some established running mates for Barnes but it's unconventional to succeed with just a single promising young player on the team and possibly limited assets given their desire to not tank

now that they turned anunoby and siakam into the value they were able to, the outcomes of quickley, barrett, walter, IND's 26 first and whatever we get for brown is really what makes or breaks them. i think expecting one of quickley or barrett to become a lowry-like acquisition is highly unlikely and overall don't think those three will help build the value of collective assets all that much but we'll see. quickley has some degree of promise fortunately.

[Scase]

[youtube][/youtube]

Right. So call everything bad, pat yourself on the back for the bad things but ignore all the times you were wrong.

I'm not really sure I follow that logic.

Right, so suggest that everyone always says everything is bad and ignore all context.

Not sure I follow your logic.

People said the trade was bad.
It was a bad trade.
That is not hindsight.
Your bias doesn't change what people said.
Reality exists.

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

[Duffman100]

[youtube][/youtube]

Right, so suggest that everyone always says everything is bad and ignore all context.

Not sure I follow your logic.

People said the trade was bad.
It was a bad trade.
That is not hindsight.
Your bias doesn't change what people said.
Reality exists.

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

I'm making up that there's a large negative contingent of the fanbase that will immediately **** on every deal?

Are you new to RealGM and this board? Right you took "a break". So maybe you forgot.

[Drakeem]

[youtube][/youtube]

Right, so suggest that everyone always says everything is bad and ignore all context.

Not sure I follow your logic.

People said the trade was bad.
It was a bad trade.
That is not hindsight.
Your bias doesn't change what people said.
Reality exists.

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

Ehhh, as someone who lurks more than they post (until recently), I've definitely seen this mentality. TWO was big on that, critiquing every move as an attempt of treadmilling until they ended up getting better and better and better. Scottie hate, the Siakam pick hate, etc. There are definitely people who just crap on everything until they end up being right, but that's not an accomplishment. It's like picking C for every question on a test and getting a few right. Like sure, but you were only right out of sheer luck.

And no, I'm not going to scour the forums years in the past and start building out timelines for specific users bc who would be a big enough psycho to do that work.

[Scase]

[youtube][/youtube]

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

I'm making up that there's a large negative contingent of the fanbase that will immediately **** on every deal?

Are you new to RealGM and this board? Right you took "a break". So maybe you forgot.

You're suggesting that there is a massive part of the group of people that called the Jak trade bad, that just **** on every single thing ever done, and never say even a single thing positive. There's no need to throw around absolutes, it detracts from your point.

Some people **** on everything, some people praise everything, and there are people in the middle. And a lot of people in the middle also said it was a bad trade at the time of the trade.

Circling back to the point. That isn't hindsight.

Also why the hell is "a break" in quotes lol

[youtube][/youtube]

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

Ehhh, as someone who lurks more than they post (until recently), I've definitely seen this mentality. TWO was big on that, critiquing every move as an attempt of treadmilling until they ended up getting better and better and better. Scottie hate, the Siakam pick hate, etc. There are definitely people who just crap on everything until they end up being right, but that's not an accomplishment. It's like picking C for every question on a test and getting a few right. Like sure, but you were only right out of sheer luck.

And no, I'm not going to scour the forums years in the past and start building out timelines for specific users bc who would be a big enough psycho to do that work.

For sure, I'm not saying they don't exist, I just think that claiming that a ton of people saying it was a bad trade, were just negative Nancy's and all they do is dump on everything, and immediately have all opinions thrown out is just as bad as people saying everything is bad.

A lot of people said the trade was bad, that includes people who say everything is bad, and a lot of people who are more measured in their takes.

Hindsight is not relevant in this case. But Duff loves to argue so, I entertain him, gotta hit that ban quota

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

[youtube][/youtube]

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

I'm making up that there's a large negative contingent of the fanbase that will immediately **** on every deal?

Are you new to RealGM and this board? Right you took "a break". So maybe you forgot.

To assume there's some kind of unified group of posters who will unanimously hate every move made by the FO doesn't seem right. Even amongst those who have been highly critical of the FO there is infighting and major differences of opinion. If Masai actually makes what seems to be a smart move then the people you think are part of this contingent will praise him for it and your remark disproven.

I openly praised the FO for their use of 2nd rounders this year despite what I view as the Filipowski blip yet I have people who claim I'm negative all the time. I just call it as I see it. Perhaps I overanalyze things but that's what you're supposed to do when contributing to a discussion forum in my eyes.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

I'm making up that there's a large negative contingent of the fanbase that will immediately **** on every deal?

Are you new to RealGM and this board? Right you took "a break". So maybe you forgot.

You're suggesting that there is a massive part of the group of people that called the Jak trade bad, that just **** on every single thing ever done, and never say even a single thing positive. There's no need to throw around absolutes, it detracts from your point.

Some people **** on everything, some people praise everything, and there are people in the middle. And a lot of people in the middle also said it was a bad trade at the time of the trade.

Circling back to the point. That isn't hindsight.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

Ehhh, as someone who lurks more than they post (until recently), I've definitely seen this mentality. TWO was big on that, critiquing every move as an attempt of treadmilling until they ended up getting better and better and better. Scottie hate, the Siakam pick hate, etc. There are definitely people who just crap on everything until they end up being right, but that's not an accomplishment. It's like picking C for every question on a test and getting a few right. Like sure, but you were only right out of sheer luck.

And no, I'm not going to scour the forums years in the past and start building out timelines for specific users bc who would be a big enough psycho to do that work.

For sure, I'm not saying they don't exist, I just think that claiming that a ton of people saying it was a bad trade, were just negative Nancy's and all they do is dump on everything, and immediately have all opinions thrown out is just as bad as people saying everything is bad.

A lot of people said the trade was bad, that includes people who say everything is bad, and a lot of people who are more measured in their takes.

Hindsight is not relevant in this case. But Duff loves to argue so, I entertain him, gotta hit that ban quota

[Duffman100]

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

I'm making up that there's a large negative contingent of the fanbase that will immediately **** on every deal?

Are you new to RealGM and this board? Right you took "a break". So maybe you forgot.

To assume there's some kind of unified group of posters who will unanimously hate every move made by the FO doesn't seem right. Even amongst those who have been highly critical of the FO there is infighting and major differences of opinion. If Masai actually makes what seems to be a smart move then the people you think are part of this contingent will praise him for it and your remark disproven.

I openly praised the FO for their use of 2nd rounders this year despite what I view as the Filipowski blip yet I have people who claim I'm negative all the time. I just call it as I see it. Perhaps I overanalyze things but that's what you're supposed to do when contributing to a discussion forum in my eyes.

I didn't say unified. But there is a large group of posters who generally react negatively to every move, at least to start.

So saying "well generally the Poeltl trade was viewed negatively" doesn't mean much. Pretty much every move on this forum is viewed negatively at first.

The irony of two of the most widely perceived negative and combative posters having this debate with me is not lost on me.

[Scase]

I'm making up that there's a large negative contingent of the fanbase that will immediately **** on every deal?

Are you new to RealGM and this board? Right you took "a break". So maybe you forgot.

To assume there's some kind of unified group of posters who will unanimously hate every move made by the FO doesn't seem right. Even amongst those who have been highly critical of the FO there is infighting and major differences of opinion. If Masai actually makes what seems to be a smart move then the people you think are part of this contingent will praise him for it and your remark disproven.

I openly praised the FO for their use of 2nd rounders this year despite what I view as the Filipowski blip yet I have people who claim I'm negative all the time. I just call it as I see it. Perhaps I overanalyze things but that's what you're supposed to do when contributing to a discussion forum in my eyes.

I didn't say unified. But there is a large group of posters who generally react negatively to every move, at least to start.

So saying "well generally the Poeltl trade was viewed negatively" doesn't mean much. Pretty much every move on this forum is viewed negatively at first.

The irony of two of the most widely perceived negative and combative posters having this debate with me is not lost on me.

Oh look, there's that bias again!

[Duffman100]

To assume there's some kind of unified group of posters who will unanimously hate every move made by the FO doesn't seem right. Even amongst those who have been highly critical of the FO there is infighting and major differences of opinion. If Masai actually makes what seems to be a smart move then the people you think are part of this contingent will praise him for it and your remark disproven.

I openly praised the FO for their use of 2nd rounders this year despite what I view as the Filipowski blip yet I have people who claim I'm negative all the time. I just call it as I see it. Perhaps I overanalyze things but that's what you're supposed to do when contributing to a discussion forum in my eyes.

I didn't say unified. But there is a large group of posters who generally react negatively to every move, at least to start.

So saying "well generally the Poeltl trade was viewed negatively" doesn't mean much. Pretty much every move on this forum is viewed negatively at first.

The irony of two of the most widely perceived negative and combative posters having this debate with me is not lost on me.

Oh look, there's that bias again!

Yup my bias. And like 30 other posters.

"Everyone is biased, I'm not the problem"

Either way, if moves are largely skewed has negative on this forum. Which they are. The point that the forum largely agreed that the Poeltl move was negative doesn't hold weight.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

I'm making up that there's a large negative contingent of the fanbase that will immediately **** on every deal?

Are you new to RealGM and this board? Right you took "a break". So maybe you forgot.

To assume there's some kind of unified group of posters who will unanimously hate every move made by the FO doesn't seem right. Even amongst those who have been highly critical of the FO there is infighting and major differences of opinion. If Masai actually makes what seems to be a smart move then the people you think are part of this contingent will praise him for it and your remark disproven.

I openly praised the FO for their use of 2nd rounders this year despite what I view as the Filipowski blip yet I have people who claim I'm negative all the time. I just call it as I see it. Perhaps I overanalyze things but that's what you're supposed to do when contributing to a discussion forum in my eyes.

I didn't say unified. But there is a large group of posters who generally react negatively to every move, at least to start.

So saying "well generally the Poeltl trade was viewed negatively" doesn't mean much. Pretty much every move on this forum is viewed negatively at first.

The irony of two of the most widely perceived negative and combative posters having this debate with me is not lost on me.

One time I went to an Expos game vs. the Atlanta Braves back in the day and there was a father and son from Atlanta that made their way over for it. As Chipper Jones came to the plate I screamed out "YOU SUCK CHIPPER" and the little son said "no he doesn't" while the father stared at me as if I had murdered his wife. You are that father.

[Scase]

I didn't say unified. But there is a large group of posters who generally react negatively to every move, at least to start.

So saying "well generally the Poeltl trade was viewed negatively" doesn't mean much. Pretty much every move on this forum is viewed negatively at first.

The irony of two of the most widely perceived negative and combative posters having this debate with me is not lost on me.

Oh look, there's that bias again!

Yup my bias. And like 30 other posters.

"Everyone is biased, I'm not the problem"

Either way, if moves are largely skewed has negative on this forum. Which they are. The point that the forum largely agreed that the Poeltl move was negative doesn't hold weight.

Oh no, the toxic positivity brigade thinks I'm negative! I think I'll be able to sleep at night.

And yes, quite literally every single person in existence is biased in some way or another, why are you acting like this is news? But again, to circle back for like the 6th time now.

Leaning towards negative more often than not, doesn't make a person wrong, nor does it make it a statement made in hindsight. Let's try to stay on topic instead of personal attacks, shall we?

[Chandan]

[youtube][/youtube]

It's hindsight when all moves said to be bad and you only acknowledge the ones that turn out bad.

You're just sitting here making up scenarios to prove an imaginary point. I love this.

Ehhh, as someone who lurks more than they post (until recently), I've definitely seen this mentality. TWO was big on that, critiquing every move as an attempt of treadmilling until they ended up getting better and better and better. Scottie hate, the Siakam pick hate, etc. There are definitely people who just crap on everything until they end up being right, but that's not an accomplishment. It's like picking C for every question on a test and getting a few right. Like sure, but you were only right out of sheer luck.

And no, I'm not going to scour the forums years in the past and start building out timelines for specific users bc who would be a big enough psycho to do that work.

yeah everything went so right the last couple of years we were a 25 win team that just started a rebuild, is already pressured to win with a thin pool of talent.
if anyone is right due to sheer luck its the people who praise the FO for everything, and they end up half-right sometimes, because the FO also got a bit lucky. You are not going to find some master plan, since everything up till this year is like adding a deck to a collapsing house. This is like telling whistle blowers they are just being "negative".

[deck]

There's no need to throw around absolutes, it detracts from your point.

Lol. Scase trying to edify people on the danger of speaking in absolutes. Your lack of self awareness is incredible.