Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October

[Knightro]

The only way I would consider a max level guy that isn’t necessarily elite at anything worthy of it is if they were a Jimmy Butler caliber of player capable of completely taking over and closing out games.

Fair point, but I'd counter that Jimmy didn't develop into that player until he was 25 years old and in his 4th NBA season.

Jimmy in his THIRD NBA season shot .397 from the floor and .283 from beyond the arc.

[VFX]

The only way I would consider a max level guy that isn’t necessarily elite at anything worthy of it is if they were a Jimmy Butler caliber of player capable of completely taking over and closing out games.

Fair point, but I'd counter that Jimmy didn't develop into that player until he was 25 years old and in his 4th NBA season.

Jimmy in his THIRD NBA season shot .397 from the floor and .283 from beyond the arc.

We will see.

Franz has had better numbers than both Jimmy and J. Brown in year 3. I'd still argue his development is more important than Paolo's based on his skill-set / position.

This was the same argument people were making on the GB about whether or not Paolo is considered "superstar" talent. Paolo's playoff numbers are better than Durant's in year 4 comparatively and there isnt a person on the planet that doesn't think hes a "superstar" caliber player.

That's the only way we can measure whether or not these guys are ratable or "worth their contract" realistically... by comparing them to equally paid counterparts.

[MasterGMer]

So whose growth is more critical for the team's success this upcoming season? Paolo or Franz? I want to say Franz.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

So whose growth is more critical for the team's success this upcoming season? Paolo or Franz? I want to say Franz.

Both, but if Paolo can become an all-nba type player that will be good for the entire team. Even though I think Paolo is the better playmaker, I would like Franz to take over play making and Paolo concentrate on scoring. It worked very well during the playoff games where Franz was distributing more.

[zaymon]

So whose growth is more critical for the team's success this upcoming season? Paolo or Franz? I want to say Franz.

Paolo becouse Franz is on contender level already. Paolo had great playoffs, but he was nowhere near two way impact Wagner had all season.

[Skybox]

IF Franz can generate the aggressive killer instinct (that we see sometimes, especially in FIBA play) and up his 3pt % (to where it should be - I think the problem has been overstated -but undeniable)...then he and Paolo are both All-Star level 20/6/5 guys and truly anchors of a contender...we may have added enough shooting to make an offensive jump without compromising defense.

JI is a better shooter, imo, than we saw last season. Jett should bring something to the table this season. AB will, hopefully, do what Ingles did - and more....Suggs is, in my opinion, the real wildcard here. Is he just another KCP or has he got another offensive gear? I feel like the FO has to be banking on that - I can't buy that they are completely uninterested in PG play.

[MasterGMer]

Is it realistic to expect Franz to be an All Star already after what we've seen in FIBA?

[eyriq]

Is it realistic to expect Franz to be an All Star already after what we've seen in FIBA?

Personally, I don't think the new information we've gotten from the Olympics should change our projections. Most posters already thought he was on an all-star trajectory, hitting as soon as next season.

[eyriq]

Lauri getting Franz money

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[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

Did Fultz sign anywhere?

[T-Cat]

Did Fultz sign anywhere?

No one has signed him! IMO I think Orlando is keeping tabs on him until he is fully healthy and his shot is where it needs to be! Maybe he had a minor surgery to correct his TOS.

[Skybox]

Is it realistic to expect Franz to be an All Star already after what we've seen in FIBA?

thing about All-Star status is that someone else has to drop...same as win/loss - we all expect our teams to improve (mostly), but for every added win, someone else has to pick up an additional loss. This is all fairly obvious but easily overlooked...Franz has to pick off another existing all-Star forward and not allow any young studs to jump past him too. I expect him to get there, but it's far from a sure thing.

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

Did Fultz sign anywhere?

No one has signed him! IMO I think Orlando is keeping tabs on him until he is fully healthy and his shot is where it needs to be! Maybe he had a minor surgery to correct his TOS.

Thanks for the insight!

[tiderulz]

So whose growth is more critical for the team's success this upcoming season? Paolo or Franz? I want to say Franz.

Paolo becouse Franz is on contender level already. Paolo had great playoffs, but he was nowhere near two way impact Wagner had all season.

Wagner also in his 3rd year and more international experience. I honestly believe Paolo also see's more defensive pressure than Wagner

[tiderulz]

IF Franz can generate the aggressive killer instinct (that we see sometimes, especially in FIBA play) and up his 3pt % (to where it should be - I think the problem has been overstated -but undeniable)...then he and Paolo are both All-Star level 20/6/5 guys and truly anchors of a contender...we may have added enough shooting to make an offensive jump without compromising defense.

JI is a better shooter, imo, than we saw last season. Jett should bring something to the table this season. AB will, hopefully, do what Ingles did - and more....Suggs is, in my opinion, the real wildcard here. Is he just another KCP or has he got another offensive gear? I feel like the FO has to be banking on that - I can't buy that they are completely uninterested in PG play.

Isaac to me has always seemed to have a better shooting reputation than I thought he really was

[meatwad4343]

Did Fultz sign anywhere?

I don't see him getting another nba deal. He's unplayable in today's league. Unless he can show that he can shoot without that hitch he's done as an nba player.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

IF Franz can generate the aggressive killer instinct (that we see sometimes, especially in FIBA play) and up his 3pt % (to where it should be - I think the problem has been overstated -but undeniable)...then he and Paolo are both All-Star level 20/6/5 guys and truly anchors of a contender...we may have added enough shooting to make an offensive jump without compromising defense.

JI is a better shooter, imo, than we saw last season. Jett should bring something to the table this season. AB will, hopefully, do what Ingles did - and more....Suggs is, in my opinion, the real wildcard here. Is he just another KCP or has he got another offensive gear? I feel like the FO has to be banking on that - I can't buy that they are completely uninterested in PG play.

Isaac to me has always seemed to have a better shooting reputation than I thought he really was

I treat Isaac’s shooting like I treat Paolo’s defense. It would be great if they were better at it but since they are pretty elite on the other side, I can deal with it.

[GelbeWand09]

Both Franz and Paolo need to be MUCH better shooters to reach the level of expectations people have for them.

Franz just signed a MAX contract.

If he is going to get paid MAX, then he needs to either be an insurmountably better shooter AND/OR a first team all defense guy.

This is extreme.

Franz is already so good at everything else, that if he simply upticks his 3PT shot back to where it was in Year 2 (league average 36%), he'll be a no questions asked all-star. The rest of his game is that good and still very much trending upward.

He absolutely does not have to become a 40%+ 3PT shooter to be worth his contract.

Then you are very much paying him for his potential to be better.

However, this is no different than paying Barnes or Cade their max as well.

Franz isnt really "elite" at anything . Maybe you could argue driving to them rim. He's average or above average at everything else. What do you expect he is going to be elite at in his career now as a max level player?

Lets also not get confused that I value Franz as Orlando's best player. The Magic are going nowhere without him Paolo, and Suggs.

Franz is a elite finisher at the rim for 2 years now.

He's not above average at defense. I would argue his defense is much closer to Suggs than most people think. Suggs plays more spectacular defense for the eyes but Franz makes less mistakes and is more versatile defender. He is not far from elite at his position on defense.

Barnes & Cade are bad contract comparisons. Cade is a high volume, low effeciency, bad defender, low impact guy.

Barnes got great stats but is a overrated defender compared to Franz and much less skilled scorer.

They still have to prove that they are or become top 2 players on a winning team to be worthy of a max contract.

I mean I don't think he deserves a max because for me only LeBron, Luka, Jokic, Gianni type players should get the max and I have high doubts our trio will ever be good enough on offense to be a real contender, without a high quality backcourt scorer, but the upcoming contracts of the 3 probably make this impossible.
But at this point I have more doubts in Suggs becoming the scorer he needs to be under this circumstances, or Paolo becoming efficient enough and a real impact player because unlike 2 way player Franz, he needs to be a 25ppg + scorer on high efficiency to offset his weaknesses on defense, to become a top 20 impact player.

[VFX]

This is extreme.

Franz is already so good at everything else, that if he simply upticks his 3PT shot back to where it was in Year 2 (league average 36%), he'll be a no questions asked all-star. The rest of his game is that good and still very much trending upward.

He absolutely does not have to become a 40%+ 3PT shooter to be worth his contract.

Then you are very much paying him for his potential to be better.

However, this is no different than paying Barnes or Cade their max as well.

Franz isnt really "elite" at anything . Maybe you could argue driving to them rim. He's average or above average at everything else. What do you expect he is going to be elite at in his career now as a max level player?

Lets also not get confused that I value Franz as Orlando's best player. The Magic are going nowhere without him Paolo, and Suggs.

Franz is a elite finisher at the rim for 2 years now.

He's not above average at defense. I would argue his defense is much closer to Suggs than most people think. Suggs plays more spectacular defense for the eyes but Franz makes less mistakes and is more versatile defender. He is not far from elite at his position on defense.

Barnes & Cade are bad contract comparisons. Cade is a high volume, low effeciency, bad defender, low impact guy.

Barnes got great stats but is a overrated defender compared to Franz and much less skilled scorer.

They still have to prove that they are or become top 2 players on a winning team to be worthy of a max contract.

I mean I don't think he deserves a max because for me only LeBron, Luka, Jokic, Gianni type players should get the max and I have high doubts our trio will ever be good enough on offense to be a real contender, without a high quality backcourt scorer, but the upcoming contracts of the 3 probably make this impossible.
But at this point I have more doubts in Suggs becoming the scorer he needs to be under this circumstances, or Paolo becoming efficient enough and a real impact player because unlike 2 way player Franz, he needs to be a 25ppg + scorer on high efficiency to offset his weaknesses on defense, to become a top 20 impact player.

Let’s put it this way.

Franz is Orlando’s best player by a large margin. Paolo has to be more efficient to be considered in the same category. I share the same doubts you do despite his numbers and if I don’t look at the efficiency. We know Paolo is making the max. It’s not really a question. That’s just what the reality of the nba has become given Paolo’s company in year 2.

ALL of these players Cade, Barnes, Mobley, etc are not worth the max right now. Why? Because none of them are taking over games single handedly like a Giannis, Jokic, Luka, etc. That’s just a fact.

You pay these guys coming off rookie contracts that amount of money based on what they could become, which makes somewhat more sense than paying players for what they were. Regardless, some teams are going to get burned shelling out that money if they don’t rise to the occasion.

Franz is just solid defensively. He isn’t making plays on that side of the ball to create opportunities on offense. He’s just a solid 1:1 and team defender. Not really anything to scoff at, but thats the difference between him and someone like Suggs. That’s what I’m talking about mainly in comparison.

Franz isn’t taking over games with his driving ability. We saw this in the Cleveland series against a big solid front court. That’s what people are missing when I’m saying he needs a consistent shot. He won’t be able to reach that aforementioned max-level guy comparison without it. Why? Because teams now have the scouting report on him.

I’m not really looking at what Franz needs to do in the context of it relating to Franz as a standalone product. I’m looking at what he needs to do on Orlando’s roster for them to be successful after giving him a max contract. You can’t be a successful team if your 1A and 1B max level guys are below average to average shooters from outside.

[Knightro]

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