In Today's Game Who You Pick? #4 ~ Charles Barkley Vs Kevin Garnett

[SlimShady83]

Just like my other threads, Plain and Simple

In today's game who you picking?

Points Per Game
Charles Barkley : 22.1
Kevin Garnett: 17.8

Rebounds Per Game

Charles Barkley : 11.7
Kevin Garnett: 10.0

Assists Per Game
Charles Barkley : 3.9
Kevin Garnett: 3.7

I'm thinking this one might come down to favourtism for most and there's a lot of KG fans on this board, I like KG and all but I think for me I'm gonna have to choose Barkley.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/charles_barkley_vs_kevin_garnett.htm

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[Dutchball97]

Barkley is without a doubt better on offense but KG is one of the all-time great defenders, while Barkley doesn't have a particularly strong reputation on that side of the ball.

In terms of overall impact I think KG takes the cake clearly, even though I'm among the people who do believe he can be a bit overrated on here.

[penbeast0]

Garnett in any NBA era. It's a game with two sides.

[homecourtloss]

Just like my other threads, Plain and Simple

In today's game who you picking?

Points Per Game
Charles Barkley : 22.1
Kevin Garnett: 17.8

Rebounds Per Game

Charles Barkley : 11.7
Kevin Garnett: 10.0

Assists Per Game
Charles Barkley : 3.9
Kevin Garnett: 3.7

I'm thinking this one might come down to favourtism for most and there's a lot of KG fans on this board, I like KG and all but I think for me I'm gonna have to choose Barkley.

I don’t want to sound offensive, but these comparisons you write out look like what was posted on this board or inside hoops maybe 15 years ago, i.e., comparing only points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game. You completely ignore defense for one thing, and then you preemptively attribute possible votes for KG due to “there’s a lot of KG fans on this board.” These aren’t serious comparisons for the PC board.

[trex_8063]

Just like my other threads, Plain and Simple

In today's game who you picking?

Points Per Game
Charles Barkley : 22.1
Kevin Garnett: 17.8

Rebounds Per Game

Charles Barkley : 11.7
Kevin Garnett: 10.0

Assists Per Game
Charles Barkley : 3.9
Kevin Garnett: 3.7

I'm thinking this one might come down to favourtism for most and there's a lot of KG fans on this board, I like KG and all but I think for me I'm gonna have to choose Barkley.

I don’t want to sound offensive, but these comparisons you write out look like what was posted on this board or inside hoops maybe 15 years ago, i.e., comparing only points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game. You completely ignore defense for one thing, and then you preemptively attribute possible votes for KG due to “there’s a lot of KG fans on this board.” These aren’t serious comparisons for the PC board.

Additionally, comparing the CAREER averages of a player with a 16-year career to someone with a 21-year career would seem to be deliberately seeking to "punish" the guy who clearly took better care of his body.

If we were to compare Barkley's career to only KG's best 16-year [contiguous] span, to make it a bit more apples to apples (though ppg/rpg/apg is still about as incomplete as you could try to be, particularly for the modern(ish) era).....

KG ('97-'12): 19.9/10.9/4.2


And then yeah, there's that defense thing. The defensive side of the coin in this comparison is a bit like comparing David Robinson to Enes Kanter.

[Owly]

Hard to see a "today's game" case for Barkley.

Even if you have Barkley ahead, which ... I would say is a minority among those whose views I respect ... and granting criteria can differ ...

so leaving aside
Garnett has a better box composites peak
Garnett has a better impact measure peak (we have almost all Barkley's career for +/-)
...
Garnett is the more better spacer for the modern game
Garnett is the more mobile defender and gives rim protection for the modern game
Garnett is quicker with ball movement and hasn't had pet moves legislated out (the Mark Jackson rule [sometimes Barkley is thrown in in terms of the name] about taking too long with your back to the basket)

Barkley has his merits. His scoring apex is pretty crazy (88-90 is, for instance, three seasons of TS Add north of +350). He's a great player. I just don't understand his case here.

At the margins his intangibles rep (especially regarding conditioning), aspects of his BBIQ (shooting a lot more 3s than most other power forwards whilst being awful at them) and his vocally anti-analytics stance (don't know how much he knew, cared, thought about such things before saying them but then ... acting without thinking got him into trouble irl in his time ... don't know how that translates to now) don't help ... not saying KG's perfect here.


Fwiw, regarding the data offered, as one particular critique hasn't been made explicit I will say ... pace is a thing. I don't know the exact difference it makes over their careers but Barkley production peak see's his team have nearly 7 extra possessions versus KG's peak context (1991 76er 95.6; 2004 Timberwolves: 89.0).

[tsherkin]

Garnett is quicker with ball movement and hasn't had pet moves legislated out (the Mark Jackson rule [sometimes Barkley is thrown in in terms of the name] about taking too long with your back to the basket)

The 5-second rule applied to him more as an older guy, in his defense. In his first decade, that was much less of a concern because he was such an explosive monster athlete.

But yes, in general, I would look towards Garnett more than Barkley unless I was an expansion team. With KG, you can run a guard-centric offense and have him cherry-pick his scoring possessions more while adding defensive and passing value and that works out pretty well. He was also pretty nasty in the pick and roll and he certainly had enough range to be useful in today's game. You didn't want to rely on him as a 25+ ppg scorer, but that's okay in an environment where finding decent to quality scoring is simpler than it was in his day. You could throw him alongside Donovan Mitchell and that would immediately be a reasonable team, even if it wouldn't be a contender.

Barkley was fun, and he was a demon of a rebounder and scorer. He'd be really exciting on a new squad. His D and his personality would make for some challenges on a team actually contending though, so it would be interesting to see what would happen in today's game.

[SlimShady83]

It's tough to find really close comparisons and even when I thought I did especially with the Durant/Dirk thread, not everyone gonna be happy

[SlimShady83]

And then yeah, there's that defense thing. The defensive side of the coin in this comparison is a bit like comparing David Robinson to Enes Kanter.

Beleive It or not looking at doing a David Robinson one, just trying to find someone else was thinking Ewing ?

[SlimShady83]

Just like my other threads, Plain and Simple

In today's game who you picking?

Points Per Game
Charles Barkley : 22.1
Kevin Garnett: 17.8

Rebounds Per Game

Charles Barkley : 11.7
Kevin Garnett: 10.0

Assists Per Game
Charles Barkley : 3.9
Kevin Garnett: 3.7

I'm thinking this one might come down to favourtism for most and there's a lot of KG fans on this board, I like KG and all but I think for me I'm gonna have to choose Barkley.

I don’t want to sound offensive, but these comparisons you write out look like what was posted on this board or inside hoops maybe 15 years ago, i.e., comparing only points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game. You completely ignore defense for one thing, and then you preemptively attribute possible votes for KG due to “there’s a lot of KG fans on this board.” These aren’t serious comparisons for the PC board.

This Is why you can also discuss about who's better at what , I don't want to get into It all and write an entire book on each player - but will help chime In on discussion y'all have If I feel It's needed:)

[SlimShady83]

Barkley was fun, and he was a demon of a rebounder and scorer. He'd be really exciting on a new squad. His D and his personality would make for some challenges on a team actually contending though, so it would be interesting to see what would happen in today's game.

I remember back In the day everyone hated Barkley and I felt like one of the few who didn't but when I was younger use to go and root for the underdog, that was until Kobe came Into the league and followed Kobe/Lakers

[SHAQ32]

Barkley is without a doubt better on offense but KG is one of the all-time great defenders, while Barkley doesn't have a particularly strong reputation on that side of the ball.

In terms of overall impact I think KG takes the cake clearly, even though I'm among the people who do believe he can be a bit overrated on here.

If KG was truly one of the all time greatest defenders, it would have shown in Team Defensive Ratings. From 1996-2007, the TWolves finished with a Top 10 Defense only twice, and never finished Top 5. And before you bring up supporting casts, I've seen actual all time great bigs lead top defenses with equal or lesser teammates. Or quote advanced metrics that can't capture all the variables.

[Owly]

Barkley is without a doubt better on offense but KG is one of the all-time great defenders, while Barkley doesn't have a particularly strong reputation on that side of the ball.

In terms of overall impact I think KG takes the cake clearly, even though I'm among the people who do believe he can be a bit overrated on here.

If KG was truly one of the all time greatest defenders, it would have shown in Team Defensive Ratings. From 1996-2007, the TWolves finished with a Top 10 Defense only twice, and never finished Top 5. And before you bring up supporting casts, I've seen actual all time great bigs lead top defenses with equal or lesser teammates. Or quote advanced metrics that can't capture all the variables.

It is fair to say advanced metrics can't capture all the variables. We don't have a million copies of each player to run through every lineup and every coach and be absolutely precise.

"All-time great" and "all time greatest" which are slightly different phrasings which to my ear are already invoking slightly different ranges ... are fuzzy enough terms that it's difficult to get much footing on any argument (and understand, know or care - whether or not one is naturally inclined to one side)...

The problem I see is arguing that "advanced metrics ... can't capture all the variables" but advocating for a much less nuanced, much less precise measure in terms of straight up team level Defensive rating which doesn't make any attempt to capture nuances such as variation in the the defensive caliber of teammates or even any distinction between how the team does with the player on court versus performance with them off it.

As I say, terms are fuzzy, defense is hard to measure I don't have an all time defensive ranking and peoples criteria when discussing it could easily differ so I don't really have a stance on the particulars of the outcome but the process doesn't seem the best or, given the criticism of "advanced metrics", entirely consistent.

[tsherkin]

If KG was truly one of the all time greatest defenders, it would have shown in Team Defensive Ratings. From 1996-2007, the TWolves finished with a Top 10 Defense only twice, and never finished Top 5. And before you bring up supporting casts, I've seen actual all time great bigs lead top defenses with equal or lesser teammates. Or quote advanced metrics that can't capture all the variables.

Denver was 14th on D in 1995 as Mutombo won his first DPOY. They were 17th a year later when he was 3rd in the DPOY vote. He didn't magically get worse on D. Atlanta was 13th in 1998 while Mutombo won the DPOY. They were 25th in 2000 when he was 3rd in the vote. They were 18th during his time there in 2001, then Philly was 5th as he replaced Ratliff for the last 26 games of the RS.

There is only so much correlation between individual defensive prowess and team defensive rating depending on the performance of others around you. And of course the defensive scheme (and thus the coach) also matters.

This is a relevant consideration. I see people crapping on Garnett's defense based on team rating a lot, but it behooves one to remember that he was playing with Wally Z at the 3 for a large stretch of time, who was a horrid defensive sieve.

Also, you're using 1996 forward, which is a little rude, since he was a straight-from-HS, 19 year-old rookie in the 96 season, and wasn't even playing PF until 1998. He WAS in the DPOY race as early as 1998, at that, however. He was top 3 from 01-03, and very much like Mutombo, wasn't getting a ton of help from his teammates on D, so the team ratings were generally trash. And his coach wasn't exactly a genius on D either.

Food for thought.

[One_and_Done]

KG and it's not even close.

[JimmyFromNz]

KG for me, I don't rate him at the highest end of the scale as some do here however its hard to see Barkley's argument as a better fit in today's game?

Taking with little hesitation the long, athletic, versatile shooter and defender who you can run a majority of your high post/ 3 point line offense through and is the elite anchor to your teams pick and roll and spread defense.

Footnote: with focus KG would develop a guardable 3 point shot in today's game. There are surprisingly a number of argument's (moreso contrarians) against this on the forums. I footnote this, because its a hill I will forever die upon.

[Ol Roy]

It's always easy to pick KG in a translation exercise, as his athleticism and skills put him on the shortlist for most versatile player ever.

[Hair Jordan]

Barkley. KG is the most overrated player ever. 7 first round exits in his prime in a row. He’d be even worse today.

[JimmyFromNz]

Barkley. KG is the most overrated player ever. 7 first round exits in his prime in a row. He’d be even worse today.

I can understand that KG maybe slightly overrated on this forum.

'7 first round exists in his prime' doesn't really compute.

You've used those years and that phrasing conveniently since we know what happened post those. Seeing as you like spin, we could easily say KG was a large part in carrying teams that had no business being in the playoffs between 1996 and 2003 - years which were certainly not his prime as we know it, losing to the team with the superior record and roster e.g. Lakers, Spurs and Mavericks.

That aside, the idea he would be worse today is a new one so I'd be interested in what sits behind that - if anything.

[tsherkin]

Barkley. KG is the most overrated player ever. 7 first round exits in his prime in a row. He’d be even worse today.

But this is sort of clownish.

First, it ignores what happened after, and second, it ignores what went into those exits.

It's like me saying Jordan couldn't win more than 50 games for the first 5 years of his career. Or that he got smoked in the first round 3 straight years, and got swept twice by Boston in the postseason.

It isn't the full story.