RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[NyKnicks1714]

How do people not realize Nick Wright is just the anti-Skip-Bayless?

Skip took on the persona of an extreme LeBron hater so that people who hate LeBron can give him views/clicks and nod their heads in agreement while people who like LeBron will give him views/clicks and call him an idiot. Either way it's a win for Skip.

Nick just does the opposite. He puts on this extreme LeBron superfan persona so that people who dislike LeBron can give him views/clicks and call him an idiot while people who love LeBron will again give him views/clicks because they like what he's saying.

[tsherkin]

How do people not realize Nick Wright is just the anti-Skip-Bayless?

He really is.

[Hornet Mania]

It only happens in every single sport every single time. In this case Jordan has not played for over two decades now. Your going to see people who know him for his shoes more then his basketball game. Guys in Lebrons era will be telling everyone how tough it was and the younger generation willing be telling everyone Wemby is the best.

Also someone else already laughed at this but this is pure delusion lol

Have we ever seen a player become GOAT in the public consciousness post-retirement? For any sport? I can't think of a single example. That to me seems like the biggest obstacle for Lebron.

Right now Jordan is ahead in general public (super casual person on the street) opinion and as evidenced by this thread's poll still leads comfortably among hardcore basketball fans. In the past we've always seen the torch get passed to a new GOAT when he's still playing. We saw it with Jordan, Gretzky, Messi and the list goes on. If Lebron can't overcome MJ's mystique while still active he won't overcome it years or decades later. MJ will just be further cemented similar to someone like Babe Ruth, transitioning into a legend who no one saw but casuals would reflexively throw out as the greatest ever.

In extremely analytical corners of sports intelligentsia this could maybe be overcome, KG's meteoric rise on the PC board here is a good example, but that isn't going to penetrate the general public's consciousness.

I'm not even arguing Lebron is worse than Jordan, to be clear, just that he's almost certainly not going to be able to overcome him at this stage. GOAT debate isn't just one generation dying and the next electing their childhood hero, typically the mantle is passed well before that happens.

[Charlesareed]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

You do know MJ was great before Phil Jackson became his head coach you do know that they became goats together right sure Phil won 2 rings in the 70s as a player but as a coach he was an amateur once Scottie elevated his game that’s all MJ needed and they dominated won 3 in a row let’s talk about it

[dhsilv2]

You're an example of someone who keeps fishing lol
Having one allstar teammate is a superteam now

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

93 Suns had a better team then the Bulls

The hell they did lol. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were the 3 best defensive players in that series.

[Charlesareed]

Another example of Lebron propaganda from ESPN and Kendrick Perkins.
Let's stop all the comparing and just enjoy what we saw.

Read on Twitter

Fact is MJ rode of into the sunset meanwhile everything Lebron has done or is trying to do it catch or surpass MJ he in Lebron head rent free for the past 20+ years it’s clearly Lebron is doing all he can to 1 up MJ trying to achieve everything MJ couldn’t because of longevity smh it’s sad of u ask me

[Quattro]

Like anything that comes out of Perkins mouth is somehow "official".

[cpower]

Maybe if Lebron did what Curry ended up doing. But he had a very pedestrian Olympics. Didn’t have a single game where he put his stamp on it. He just did what he always does, collects and pads the stats while other guys take the game over and hit the biggest of shots. Other guys save the day then you look at the stats and see oh wait a minute lebron avg 14ppg 8 rebounds 8 assist surely he was the best. Smh

None of that is right.

He led the team in rebounding, he was their primary playmaker and assist leader. He was 2nd on the team in PPG, and he shot 66% from the field.

He savaged the competition, and was their most reliable player, the cornerstone of their offense.

He was very clearly, unambiguously, the best player during the tournament.

nah that's not how MVP is about...Let's be honest here, Draymond Green would avg the same number like Lebron in these Olympics but he would never be considered MVP. MVP is narrative based and Lebron happens to be on the right side all the time.

[Jcool0]

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

93 Suns had a better team then the Bulls

The hell they did lol. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were the 3 best defensive players in that series.

Barkley avearaged 27/13/5. So not sure what Grant was doing on D in that series... But it wasn't much.

[Camby_Bamby]

Bron fans been scrambling for over a decade to put him above MJ. The commitment to desperation is remarkable.

[SlimShady83]

Bron fans been scrambling for over a decade to put him above MJ. The commitment to desperation is remarkable.

This x10

And In other threads they say the Olympics and regular season etc have nothing to do with the goat topic

[Jcool0]

LeBron will be considered better by a decent percentage of people when he retires. I think it could very easily be another 20-30 years before someone on par with MJ and LeBron rolls around.

Other way around

A modern player's legacy declines after he retires. Kobe was considered 2nd by many on these forums and in the world.
Now he's barely top 10.

Lebron's 40 and still hasn't been close in the polls, despite still playing. Achievements and advanced stats heavily favor Jordan, longevity Lebron. But this isn't a Jordan Lebron thread so can we just not turn it into one?

The common answer is Jordan is the GOAT, in polls, in mass media, everywhere. Hence the thread.

No one had Kobe #2 when he retired. He was always in that 7-12 range. There was a certain section of NBA players that would call him the GOAT but that wasn't most people. Its only after he passed that people started putting him in the top 3.

[dhsilv2]

93 Suns had a better team then the Bulls

The hell they did lol. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were the 3 best defensive players in that series.

Barkley avearaged 27/13/5. So not sure what Grant was doing on D in that series... But it wasn't much.

Doing his job and playing solid defense as always? The suns had the best offense in the league that year and the 9th best defense. They were 3rd in SRS over the course of the season and allowed the 18th most points per game.

[Camby_Bamby]

Bron fans been scrambling for over a decade to put him above MJ. The commitment to desperation is remarkable.

This x10

And In other threads they say the Olympics and regular season etc have nothing to do with the goat topic

If you've been around Bron fans, it's nothing new. Around 2008-2011, they used to say that Championships didn't mean anything. Lol.

Think about all that he's accomplished that that they believe 'sealed the deal'.

2016 win
2020 Covid win
Number one in points scored

They're getting worse and worse and grasping at anything. It looks exhausting, but they push through.

[homecourtloss]

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

93 Suns had a better team then the Bulls

The hell they did lol. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were the 3 best defensive players in that series.

The Bulls were favored in that series, even though the Suns had Homecourt advantage. Nobody thought that the suns were actually better than the Bulls.

[Stannis]

Again, what’s the issue?

Losing

until Kobe was able to join Team USA in 2008.

Truthfully, the Team USA career just solidifies that LBJ wasn't able to win it all unless he got his superteams.

So you’re saying LeBron at 20yo had no excuse but to win while having a 19yo Dwight Howard, a 21yo Chris Bosh, a 22yo Dwyane Wade, a 20yo Chris Paul, etc. The only player that was good that year alongside LeBron was Wade, who had just come off winning a championship and had no rest.

And you’re comparing that to a 2008 team with a much improved LeBron, a much improved Howard, much improved Wade, Paul, etc., along with Kobe, Kidd, Williams, etc.

Okay man, do you.

Well it does stick out... 2004 was basically the only time USA didn't get gold in basketball. It wouldn't have looked as bad if they didn't try to come back in the 2006 FIBA and avenge themselves. But they did, and lost again.

There really just isn't a good excuse for Team USA to lose, even if it isn't their 100% A team.

[homecourtloss]

93 Suns had a better team then the Bulls

The hell they did lol. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were the 3 best defensive players in that series.

Barkley avearaged 27/13/5. So not sure what Grant was doing on D in that series... But it wasn't much.

Suns outscored the Bulls in the minutes Barkley wasn’t on court and there were no garbage minutes. Barkley without the elbow injury might have put them over the top.

[ShootersShoot]

Losing

until Kobe was able to join Team USA in 2008.

Truthfully, the Team USA career just solidifies that LBJ wasn't able to win it all unless he got his superteams.

So you’re saying LeBron at 20yo had no excuse but to win while having a 19yo Dwight Howard, a 21yo Chris Bosh, a 22yo Dwyane Wade, a 20yo Chris Paul, etc. The only player that was good that year alongside LeBron was Wade, who had just come off winning a championship and had no rest.

And you’re comparing that to a 2008 team with a much improved LeBron, a much improved Howard, much improved Wade, Paul, etc., along with Kobe, Kidd, Williams, etc.

Okay man, do you.

Well it does stick out... 2004 was basically the only time USA didn't get gold in basketball. It wouldn't have looked as bad if they didn't try to come back in the 2006 FIBA and avenge themselves. But they did, and lost again.

Its actually insane that the 2006 fiba team lost..I know they were all still very young but its hard to fathom a team with bron, wade, paul, dwight could lose.

[Homer38]

Again,it was ignored but the suns almost lost against the 39-43 lakers in 1993 in the first round

[bledredwine]

LeBron will be considered better by a decent percentage of people when he retires. I think it could very easily be another 20-30 years before someone on par with MJ and LeBron rolls around.

Other way around

A modern player's legacy declines after he retires. Kobe was considered 2nd by many on these forums and in the world.
Now he's barely top 10.

Lebron's 40 and still hasn't been close in the polls, despite still playing. Achievements and advanced stats heavily favor Jordan, longevity Lebron. But this isn't a Jordan Lebron thread so can we just not turn it into one?

The common answer is Jordan is the GOAT, in polls, in mass media, everywhere. Hence the thread.

No one had Kobe #2 when he retired. He was always in that 7-12 range. There was a certain section of NBA players that would call him the GOAT but that wasn't most people. Its only after he passed that people started putting him in the top 3.

During his prime, everyone here was declaring him 2 or GOAT. It was maddening.