RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Homer38]

FWIW in 1995 the Bulls had a 23–25 record at the All Star break. Jordan comes back and the Bulls go 13–4.

They lost Horace Grant that year that I believe joined the Magic that year en route to beating those Bulls teams.

They had pretty much everyone else and had Toni Kukoc starting. Not sure he was that important to go from a #1 seed to #7.

They had no one to replace his defense and rebounding of Grant in 1995.Big reason why they could not beat the Magic in the second round

[JN61]

Curry saved US ass and Lebron the GOAT

Except even if Curry did his usual and choked under the pressure and missed all of his shots France would have still lost..

[Stannis]

Even if we want to equate Olympic Gold Medals to NBA Rings, that's still 7 vs 8, right?

The only way this works in Lebron's favor is if we believe that Olympic Gold Medals are more prestigious than NBA titles (like a Soccer World Cup trophy versus a Champion's League trophy). I don't think there's many people who actually believe this though. Bball Gold Medals are always USA's to lose.

[Stannis]

Curry saved US ass and Lebron the GOAT

Very reminiscent of Ray Allen in the 2013 Finals.

TBH, that's something I'd never knock LBJ for. You can't always play hero ball. You gotta trust your teammates and make the right decisions.

If he chose hero ball and turned it over, we'd be here saying how he cost the Heat a championship.

[Jcool0]

They lost Horace Grant that year that I believe joined the Magic that year en route to beating those Bulls teams.

They had pretty much everyone else and had Toni Kukoc starting. Not sure he was that important to go from a #1 seed to #7.

They had no one to replace his defense and rebounding of Grant in 1995.Big reason why they could not beat the Magic in the second round

They didn't beat the Magic because Jordan was gassed. Not because they missed Grant . The Magic only out rebounded the Bulls by 9 in the series and that was with prime Shaq averaging 13.2 per game.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Do Olympic medals mean a hell of a lot in goat debates? Like its usually one close game and Hebron did need a strong Curry carry for a comeback win. But even if he lost, who cares. I don't even think Jordan cares. But of course we need lebron vs Jordan content on realgm even with the slightest amount of fodder.

[Homer38]

They had pretty much everyone else and had Toni Kukoc starting. Not sure he was that important to go from a #1 seed to #7.

They had no one to replace his defense and rebounding of Grant in 1995.Big reason why they could not beat the Magic in the second round

They didn't beat the Magic because Jordan was gassed. Not because they missed Grant . The Magic only out rebounded the Bulls by 9 in the series and that was with prime Shaq averaging 13.2 per game.

One of the reasons the Bulls were that good was because they had Jordan of course but also they were so dominant in rebounding and defense...That was just not the case in 1995 without Grant or Rodman.They crush the magic in 1996 ECF in rebounds.I mean their offensive rebounds % in 1996 was at 44.4% with Rodman and without Grant from the other team!!!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-bulls.html

[KodiakBear]

It doesn't matter for the goat debate, but pretty cool LeBron will wants to play at 39. Jordan wouldn't even play in 96

[Capn'O]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

It would have mattered a lot for Wemby. US players not so much.

[CobraCommander]

This makes no sense...Jordan was the player that we depended on if the game was tight...Lebron is the player that gets you to a position where you can win when a game is tight. But this Olympics is a mirror of both their careers. Lebron was the ultimate player and facilitator and MJ was the ultimate winner and make it happen by himself guy - jordan isn’t hurt by this...but Lebron is helped. No one changed their mind on who is the best after this

[Stannis]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

It would have mattered a lot for Wemby. US players not so much.

Yeah, if this ever happens, I'm wondering how much it helps international players in future GOAT debates?

Hypothetically, if Wemby or Jokic only get 2-3 NBA rings, but they defeat a Team USA for Gold, would you say that Medal is worth as much as an NBA ring? More?

[Uncle Mxy]

Until I see MJ on The Biggest Loser, I'm not too worried.

[The4thHorseman]

Jordan joined a great organization The Bulls never made a Finals appearance before his arrival and haven’t made one since he left but they did manage to win 6 titles in his 11 full seasons with the team. Do you think that was just a coincidence? Also, the Bulls were no super team. Pippen was drafted and Rodman never made an All Star team as a Bull. By 1995, his defense was nowhere near his DPOTY peak as a Piston. He was basically a great rebounder and glue guy by then. Kukoc is a member of the basketball HOF but would never make the NBA HOF if they had one. Nice try though.

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

FWIW in 1995 the Bulls had a 23–25 record at the All Star break. Jordan comes back and the Bulls go 13–4.

The Bulls were 34-31 when MJ came back and only needed to win 3 out of the last 17gms to make the playoffs. Safe to say they would have made the postseason without him.

[Capn'O]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

It would have mattered a lot for Wemby. US players not so much.

Yeah, if this ever happens, I'm wondering how much it helps international players in future GOAT debates?

Hypothetically, if Wemby or Jokic only get 2-3 NBA rings, but they defeat a Team USA for Gold, would you say that Medal is worth as much as an NBA ring? More?

I always argue that performance in these circumstances matters most. To that effect, Wemby didn't hurt himself because he played great here but a win at age 20 would have been an insane accomplishment. He made Embiid look useless (AD played much better) and scored well. Maybe next step is dominate the glass.

[Jcool0]

They had no one to replace his defense and rebounding of Grant in 1995.Big reason why they could not beat the Magic in the second round

They didn't beat the Magic because Jordan was gassed. Not because they missed Grant . The Magic only out rebounded the Bulls by 9 in the series and that was with prime Shaq averaging 13.2 per game.

One of the reasons the Bulls were that good was because they had Jordan of course but also they were so dominant in rebounding and defense...That was just not the case in 1995 without Grant or Rodman.They crush the magic in 1996 ECF in rebounds.I mean their offensive rebounds % in 1996 was at 44.4% with Rodman and without Grant from the other team!!!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-bulls.html

Rodman was a great rebounder and did all the little things they needed. But its not like he made that 96 team what it is. Just like Grant wasn't the reason for the team fall off. A full Jordan and Pippen was enough to get out of the eastern conference.

[Homer38]

They didn't beat the Magic because Jordan was gassed. Not because they missed Grant . The Magic only out rebounded the Bulls by 9 in the series and that was with prime Shaq averaging 13.2 per game.

One of the reasons the Bulls were that good was because they had Jordan of course but also they were so dominant in rebounding and defense...That was just not the case in 1995 without Grant or Rodman.They crush the magic in 1996 ECF in rebounds.I mean their offensive rebounds % in 1996 was at 44.4% with Rodman and without Grant from the other team!!!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-bulls.html

Rodman was a great rebounder and did all the little things they needed. But its not like he made that 96 team what it is. Just like Grant wasn't the reason for the team fall off. A full Jordan and Pippen was enough to get out of the eastern conference.

I never said Grant or Rodman was alone ....But they were still a big piece.Rodman was huge vs Sonics in the finals and his defense was very important vs Malone in 1997 and 1998

[DimesandKnicks]

FWIW in 1995 the Bulls had a 23–25 record at the All Star break. Jordan comes back and the Bulls go 13–4.

They lost Horace Grant that year that I believe joined the Magic that year en route to beating those Bulls teams.

They had pretty much everyone else and had Toni Kukoc starting. Not sure he was that important to go from a #1 seed to #7.

He was the third best player, best post defender and best rebounder on that first three peat team. The fact that the team declined from the conference finals to fighting for a playoff spot demonstrates his value.

[Capn'O]

Oh Stannis, I didn't realize I didn't really answer your question but a superstar player dominating the US team and winning gold would be similarly rated achievement as a championship for me.

[Jcool0]

They lost Horace Grant that year that I believe joined the Magic that year en route to beating those Bulls teams.

They had pretty much everyone else and had Toni Kukoc starting. Not sure he was that important to go from a #1 seed to #7.

He was the third best player, best post defender and best rebounder on that first three peat team. The fact that the team declined from the conference finals to fighting for a playoff spot demonstrates his value.

1995: Kokuc: 15.7 ppg 5.4 rebounds 4.6 assists 1.3 steals 0.2 blocks 4.3 BPM 4.1 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 105 ORtg 118 WS 10

1994: Grant: 15.1 ppg 11 rebounds 3.4 assists 1.1 steals 1.2 blocks 4 BPM 3.9 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 101 ORtg 117 WS 10

Different players, but played a similar role. Looks pretty even.

[Wingy]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

It would have mattered a lot for Wemby. US players not so much.

Glad it didn’t honestly. Well, part of me wants USAB the org to construct better functioning teams and be humbled a little, but end of the day, I’m more than happy to take the golds.

I’m more glad for Wemby. His expectations are already through the stratosphere. Accomplishing something so unexpected in such a huge upset would’ve put his hype and expectations in an even higher place that might be truly impossible to achieve given the dizzying bar already in place by MJ, Lebron, KAJ.