How credible is a Steph Curry GOAT case?

[Djoker]

I feel like a case can be made.

Emphasize offensive goodness, impact on the game (small scale tactics and large scale team strategy), and ceiling raising. De-emphasize individual defense (although a positive interpretation sees him as an above average defender anyway) and lack of durability.

[Blame Rasho]

He doesn’t, lacks all nba, all d, lacks championships, lacks MVPs, and so forth.

You can say he is the GOAT shooter and you will not find many, if any people disagree with that notion.

[falcolombardi]

Lebron had at worst similar impact signals (and at best unparalelled outside bill russel impact on team improvement)

led better offenses while playing with better defense showing to b a better ceiling raiser on both ends

At his peak had 2 consecutive years with better playoff offense with kyrie and love than curry did with klay and durant

maintained better playoffs value

Over a more than twice as long prime

Was a more portable player as he adapted to all kinds of teams and roles from heliocentric carry jobs, hyper efficieny on ball/off ball hybrid scorer, pass first point guard, cutting/rolling monster with low ish time of possesion

Outplayed curry head to head

Defined a player archetype as point forward with 3/4 versatility in both ends that alongside harden archetype of guards has been replicated all across the nba (whereas curry off ball approach and warriors approach has not became the norm)

If he has no case vs a contemporaneous player i dont see his overall case

[Mogspan]

His case is that in an all-time draft of elite players, he could go first overall given how unique and scalable his skill set is. My all-time starting 5 would feature him for sure.

By absolute peak, though, I have to go with guys who can approximate his offensive impact while also being clear + defenders. LeBron, Shaq, Jokić, and MJ I believe are close to inarguably better at their peaks. After that, I can see a case for him over anyone.

By longevity and “aesthetics of career achievements section on Wikipedia,” he has no case whatsoever.

[tsherkin]

There is absolutely no case for Steph as GOAT.

[jalengreen]

Looking at the Jordan plus/minus data kinda reminded me of Curry and made me wonder how far fetched Curry > Jordan if you really don’t believe in Jordan’s defensive impact. Pretty far fetched regardless but I wonder if anybody would make that case lol

[AEnigma]

Depends, are you asking outside of the Bay Area.

[Djoker]

Lebron had at worst similar impact signals (and at best unparalelled outside bill russel impact on team improvement)

led better offenses while playing with better defense showing to b a better ceiling raiser on both ends

At his peak had 2 consecutive years with better playoff offense with kyrie and love than curry did with klay and durant

maintained better playoffs value

Over a more than twice as long prime

Was a more portable player as he adapted to all kinds of teams and roles from heliocentric carry jobs, hyper efficieny on ball/off ball hybrid scorer, pass first point guard, cutting/rolling monster with low ish time of possesion

Outplayed curry head to head

Defined a player archetype as point forward with 3/4 versatility in both ends that alongside harden archetype of guards has been replicated all across the nba (whereas curry off ball approach and warriors approach has not became the norm)

If he has no case vs a contemporaneous player i dont see his overall case

Impact signals are neck and neck.

Lebron is emphatically not a better ceiling raiser than Curry. Steph's teams reached way greater heights both in general and with him on the floor.

Outproducing someone isn't the same as outplaying. Wilt also outproduced Russell but people don't unanimously agree that Wilt outplayed him. Not to mention Lebron and Curry don't even play the same position.

And more portable than Curry is just a comical take.

I don't care if you think Lebron is the GOAT. Many people do but your post is full of fallacies.

[eminence]

If LeBron had had a normal length career maybe there’d be some sort of modernist case for Steph.

But as is there’s no case, I’m very high on Steph and maybe slightly below average on LeBron and can only get Steph over LeBron from ‘13 to present. LeBron has a whole successful career prior to that.

I do think Steph has an outside chance at #2 perimeter guy ever, but he’s never catching LeBron.

[MacGill]

I like Curry, but I feel many place additional credit for 'changing the way the game was played - 3 point shot' which gives him additional boost points but far too many players have changed the way the game was played in the top 15. He just isn't the 2-way titan that I could champion as a GOAT candidate and as you mention you'd have to quantify the criteria well ahead of starting the discussion. 11-15 range for me but no where close to GOAT.

[AEnigma]

Lebron had at worst similar impact signals (and at best unparalelled outside bill russel impact on team improvement)

led better offenses while playing with better defense showing to b a better ceiling raiser on both ends

At his peak had 2 consecutive years with better playoff offense with kyrie and love than curry did with klay and durant

maintained better playoffs value

Over a more than twice as long prime

Was a more portable player as he adapted to all kinds of teams and roles from heliocentric carry jobs, hyper efficieny on ball/off ball hybrid scorer, pass first point guard, cutting/rolling monster with low ish time of possesion

Outplayed curry head to head

Defined a player archetype as point forward with 3/4 versatility in both ends that alongside harden archetype of guards has been replicated all across the nba (whereas curry off ball approach and warriors approach has not became the norm)

If he has no case vs a contemporaneous player i dont see his overall case

Impact signals are neck and neck.

If you ignore playoffs and ignore the massive career edge.

Lebron is emphatically not a better ceiling raiser than Curry. Steph's teams reached way greater heights both in general and with him on the floor.

Yet again, despite your interest in defining it this way, “ceiling raising” is not about whether you had better rosters around you. On functionally equal rosters, Lebron produces the better team because his defence is a value add that Curry can never remotely match.

Outproducing someone isn't the same as outplaying. Wilt also outproduced Russell but people don't unanimously agree that Wilt outplayed him.

Fortunately Lebron did both.

Not to mention Lebron and Curry don't even play the same position.

This is a cheap way of attempting to dismiss Lebron’s massive defensive advantage. Lebron can play point; Curry cannot play forward.

And more portable than Curry is just a comical take.

Offensively portable, sure. But here too, “portability” is not a one-way concept, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

I don't care if you think Lebron is the GOAT. Many people do but your post is full of fallacies.

Evidently fewer than yours.

[brackdan70]

One of the greats of his generation and arguably top 10 all time.
2x MVP, 4x 1st team all NBA, 4 championships.
One can certainly argue he deserved another MVP.
He doesn’t reach the level of Jordan or Lebron imo for a couple reasons. Both basically became the best player in the league their second year. It took Curry several years to become an all star level player.
LBJ and MJ each had over 10 NBA 1st teams.
MJ was undisputed as the best player of his era, LBJ as well but maybe less so.

Steph was twice best in BPM and once on Winshares. If you look at adjusted on off advanced stats you see the same. LBJ was best 7 and 6 times. MJ 9 times each. This correlates well to adjusted advanced stats. Curry was an all time great. Is still quite good, but just never was on the same level as guys who have a claim to GOAT.
Edit: I should have really included Kareem. He was similarly on top of the league for a sustained period.

[parsnips33]

Yeah it's hard to make the case he's "greater" than LeBron

I think one could maybe make the case he's more "important" in a historical sense than LeBron, but I'm not really interested in opening that particular can of worms

[falcolombardi]

Yeah it's hard to make the case he's "greater" than LeBron

I think one could maybe make the case he's more "important" in a historical sense than LeBron, but I'm not really interested in opening that particular can of worms

Is he? While curry helped push modern pace and space and volume of 3 pointers as a proof of concept the increase in 3's and pull up 3's was already underneath

I actually wonder if we dont overcredit curry/kerr alone for somethingh that has been a more gradual and progressively steeper evolution starting from don nelson all the way to ssol suns amd later the evolution of small ball amd 3 point shooting of teams like spurs and the heathles

Like draymond green himself was a big part of the revolution of faster, smaller ball, so was lebron amd bosh frontcourts in miami, so was nash suns shooting and overall speed or spurs 10's emphasis for the time on corner 3's and spacing

Then harden and morey were the harbingers of how basketball is played today with 3 level scoring guards who optimized their games around spacing, step back 3's and dribbling with lob threat big men

If anythingh there is more big wings/small 4's who handle the ball (lebron) or ball dominant guards who optimize their shot selection for efficiency witj pick and roll spam or mismatch hunting iso(harden) than players imitating curry mold

I dont think is necesarrily a understatement to aay harden has defined mpdern guard play more than curry

[AEnigma]

I do not think Lebron was more influential — although I agree that Curry’s individual influence is significantly overstated, that primary credit for the three-point revolution goes to Morey and D’Antoni, and that the biggest influence Kerr had was how he (via Draymond) affected modern defensive schemes — but that is because 1) Lebron as an individual is not particularly replicable, and 2) Lebron as an individual did not “innovate” in any particular way.

To me that concept matters about as much as how popular a given player is, but yeah, if you want to talk about influence, who out there is going to be able to conceivably replicate Lebron? Scottie Barnes (if you squint hard enough to go blind)? In contrast, plenty of people think they can play like Curry, plenty of players sought to play like Kobe/Jordan (often to a negative extent), and plenty more have been influenced by Russell’s innovative approach to defence.

[PistolPeteJR]

There is absolutely no case for Steph as GOAT.

/thread

Is this seriously what we’re doing now?

[homecourtloss]

I feel like a case can be made.

Emphasize offensive goodness, impact on the game (small scale tactics and large scale team strategy), and ceiling raising. De-emphasize individual defense (although a positive interpretation sees him as an above average defender anyway) and lack of durability.

So there is this take here while in another thread there was this take:

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do.

interesting

[homecourtloss]

Lebron had at worst similar impact signals (and at best unparalelled outside bill russel impact on team improvement)

led better offenses while playing with better defense showing to b a better ceiling raiser on both ends

At his peak had 2 consecutive years with better playoff offense with kyrie and love than curry did with klay and durant

maintained better playoffs value

Over a more than twice as long prime

Was a more portable player as he adapted to all kinds of teams and roles from heliocentric carry jobs, hyper efficieny on ball/off ball hybrid scorer, pass first point guard, cutting/rolling monster with low ish time of possesion

Outplayed curry head to head

Defined a player archetype as point forward with 3/4 versatility in both ends that alongside harden archetype of guards has been replicated all across the nba (whereas curry off ball approach and warriors approach has not became the norm)

If he has no case vs a contemporaneous player i dont see his overall case

Impact signals are neck and neck.

Lebron is emphatically not a better ceiling raiser than Curry. Steph's teams reached way greater heights both in general and with him on the floor.

Outproducing someone isn't the same as outplaying. Wilt also outproduced Russell but people don't unanimously agree that Wilt outplayed him. Not to mention Lebron and Curry don't even play the same position.

And more portable than Curry is just a comical take.

I don't care if you think Lebron is the GOAT. Many people do but your post is full of fallacies.

Only if you are looking from 2015 to 2019.

Old Man LeBron has been as or more impactful in the 2020-2024 Stretch when he was between 35 and 39 years of age while Curry was much younger.

Then you have all the other years.

[Djoker]

If you ignore playoffs and ignore the massive career edge.

Curry's best PS stretches are around Lebron's level and his RS stretches are better.

Yet again, despite your interest in defining it this way, “ceiling raising” is not about whether you had better rosters around you. On functionally equal rosters, Lebron produces the better team because his defence is a value add that Curry can never remotely match.

Curry's best teams were actually way better than Lebron's best teams. Your only argument seems to be that Lebron never had supporting casts as good as Curry's. Many people would disagree with you on that.

Fortunately Lebron did both.

Arguably not. It's very debatable who was more impactful in some of these series. A lot of what Curry does is not visible on the stat sheet, namely his gravity.

This is a cheap way of attempting to dismiss Lebron’s massive defensive advantage. Lebron can play point; Curry cannot play forward.

I mentioned that in response to Lebron outplaying him head-to-head. They don't play the same position and hardly ever guard one another.

Offensively portable, sure. But here too, “portability” is not a one-way concept, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

Lebron is not a defensive big man. As such his value on defense pales in comparison to his value on offense. Thus I'll take Steph's large advantage in offensive portability to give him a large overall edge in portability.

[AdagioPace]

nobody becoming a superstar at 25 will ever have GOAT case for me, unless he's a freak like we've never seen. A sort of Steve Nash on steroids (and Curry is not). Fans should rather focus on pushing Curry in the top 10.