How credible is a Steph Curry GOAT case?

[Djoker]

Lebron had at worst similar impact signals (and at best unparalelled outside bill russel impact on team improvement)

led better offenses while playing with better defense showing to b a better ceiling raiser on both ends

At his peak had 2 consecutive years with better playoff offense with kyrie and love than curry did with klay and durant

maintained better playoffs value

Over a more than twice as long prime

Was a more portable player as he adapted to all kinds of teams and roles from heliocentric carry jobs, hyper efficieny on ball/off ball hybrid scorer, pass first point guard, cutting/rolling monster with low ish time of possesion

Outplayed curry head to head

Defined a player archetype as point forward with 3/4 versatility in both ends that alongside harden archetype of guards has been replicated all across the nba (whereas curry off ball approach and warriors approach has not became the norm)

If he has no case vs a contemporaneous player i dont see his overall case

Impact signals are neck and neck.

Lebron is emphatically not a better ceiling raiser than Curry. Steph's teams reached way greater heights both in general and with him on the floor.

Outproducing someone isn't the same as outplaying. Wilt also outproduced Russell but people don't unanimously agree that Wilt outplayed him. Not to mention Lebron and Curry don't even play the same position.

And more portable than Curry is just a comical take.

I don't care if you think Lebron is the GOAT. Many people do but your post is full of fallacies.

Only if you are looking from 2015 to 2019.

Old Man LeBron has been as or more impactful in the 2020-2024 Stretch when he was between 35 and 39 years of age while Curry was much younger.

Then you have all the other years.

You're trying to compare them concurrently and emphasize longevity which everyone already concedes is edge Lebron.

Lebron doesn't have any 5-year stretches that can match 2015-2019 Curry in terms of impact metrics, especially in the RS.

[AEnigma]

If you ignore playoffs and ignore the massive career edge.

Curry's best PS stretches are around Lebron's level and his RS stretches are better.

By what, raw on/off or plus/minus disregarding the minutes shared with Durant or Draymond? Unserious position.

Yet again, despite your interest in defining it this way, “ceiling raising” is not about whether you had better rosters around you. On functionally equal rosters, Lebron produces the better team because his defence is a value add that Curry can never remotely match.

Curry's best teams were actually way better than Lebron's best teams. Your only argument seems to be that Lebron never had supporting casts as good as Curry's. Many people would disagree with you on that.

Unserious people, yes.

Fortunately Lebron did both.

Arguably not. It's very debatable who was more impactful in some of these series. A lot of what Curry does is not visible on the stat sheet, namely his gravity.

“Gravity” is not a magical catch-all.

This is a cheap way of attempting to dismiss Lebron’s massive defensive advantage. Lebron can play point; Curry cannot play forward.

I mentioned that in response to Lebron outplaying him head-to-head. They don't play the same position and hardly ever guard one another.

True, Curry was guarded primarily by a rotation of Kyrie, Dellavadova, and JR, and Lebron was primarily guarded by a rotation of Iguodala, Durant, and Draymond. What a good case for Curry.

Offensively portable, sure. But here too, “portability” is not a one-way concept, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

Lebron is not a defensive big man. As such his value on defense pales in comparison to his value on offense. Thus I'll take Steph's large advantage in offensive portability to give him a large overall edge in portability.

More unserious nonsense.

Curious, were you ever capable of posting about Lebron in good faith, or is that a relatively recent trend.

EDIT:

Lebron doesn't have any 5-year stretches that can match 2015-2019 Curry in terms of impact metrics, especially in the RS.

Guess we speed-ran to the part where you start openly lying. Very cool.

Just so difficult to imagine someone consistently dominating any given five-year stretch.

[parsnips33]

Yeah it's hard to make the case he's "greater" than LeBron

I think one could maybe make the case he's more "important" in a historical sense than LeBron, but I'm not really interested in opening that particular can of worms

Is he? While curry helped push modern pace and space and volume of 3 pointers as a proof of concept the increase in 3's and pull up 3's was already underneath

I actually wonder if we dont overcredit curry/kerr alone for somethingh that has been a more gradual and progressively steeper evolution starting from don nelson all the way to ssol suns amd later the evolution of small ball amd 3 point shooting of teams like spurs and the heathles

Like draymond green himself was a big part of the revolution of faster, smaller ball, so was lebron amd bosh frontcourts in miami, so was nash suns shooting and overall speed or spurs 10's emphasis for the time on corner 3's and spacing

Then harden and morey were the harbingers of how basketball is played today with 3 level scoring guards who optimized their games around spacing, step back 3's and dribbling with lob threat big men

If anythingh there is more big wings/small 4's who handle the ball (lebron) or ball dominant guards who optimize their shot selection for efficiency witj pick and roll spam or mismatch hunting iso(harden) than players imitating curry mold

I dont think is necesarrily a understatement to aay harden has defined mpdern guard play more than curry

So much of this stuff is downstream of winning though, fair or not. If SSOL Suns had one won in the 00s, we'd probably be looking at Nash as the most influential player of the era. I've really been thinking of Steph as the new Kobe, and even when Kobe's and LeBron's primes overlapped, it was no question of who was more important/influential, even if that didn't correspond with who was platonically greater

[falcolombardi]

Saying that because lebron is not a elite defensive center that his defensive edge on curry doesnt matter is certainly a take

Reminds me of ben taylor pointing out how defensive differences are glossed over while offense minutia diffetences are hypee analized

[Djoker]

Lebron is an obvious GOAT candidate and a top 5 player of all time. I'm just not in love with him or any player the way some of you guys are in love with Lebron. Ben Taylor must be one of the least objective analysts ever according to you. He gives Curry a +2 and Lebron a -1 on portability.

Taking rigid positions and calling people who disagree with you "unserious" is just going to make me not respond to you. As is misquoting me and attacking the strawman repeatedly. It gets tiresome.

Sad that this is a Curry thread and it devolved into yet another Lebron thread. I'll exit for a while.

[AEnigma]

Yeah I am sure you had no idea that asking whether Curry has a GOAT case using facially disingenuous reasoning might directly transition into a comparison with the GOAT playing at the same time as him. No, must just reflect how we are all “in love with” Lebron. Do you honestly have that little respect for the critical thinking of the people who read this forum?

There was no misquoting. I do not need to make, oh, what was it, strawmen about how anyone taking this laughably unsubtle bait must be doing so because of personal player devotion. Your words are all there directly, and through them you have done a wonderfully thorough job of letting everyone see exactly where your interests lie.

[falcolombardi]

Lebron is an obvious GOAT candidate and a top 5 player of all time. I'm just not in love with him or any player the way some of you guys are in love with Lebron. Ben Taylor must be one of the least objective analysts ever according to you. He gives Curry a +2 and Lebron a -1 on portability.

Taking rigid positions and calling people who disagree with you "unserious" is just going to make me not respond to you. As is misquoting me and attacking the strawman repeatedly. It gets tiresome.

Sad that this is a Curry thread and it devolved into yet another Lebron thread. I'll exit for a while.

Ehhhh, Asking if curry has a goat case automatically means comparision with other players

Lebron is just one of the most prominent roadblocks for anyone to "challenge" for goat status, complaining that this threas brings up lebron comparisions is as if i said shai is the league best player and got annoyed people bring up jokic or giannis

And since a significant part of curry case is dominating in the modern era (compared to the likes lf jordan, russel or kareem) then the contemporaneous player who is a goat contender himself becomes the most inmediate comparision

Let me ask another way since you have jordan as a better player than lebron

Would you agree there is a legit case for curry being greater or better than jordan?

[PistolPeteJR]

Lebron is an obvious GOAT candidate and a top 5 player of all time. I'm just not in love with him or any player the way some of you guys are in love with Lebron. Ben Taylor must be one of the least objective analysts ever according to you. He gives Curry a +2 and Lebron a -1 on portability.

Taking rigid positions and calling people who disagree with you "unserious" is just going to make me not respond to you. As is misquoting me and attacking the strawman repeatedly. It gets tiresome.

Sad that this is a Curry thread and it devolved into yet another Lebron thread. I'll exit for a while.

Taylor is an excellent resource and I’ve never heard anyone on here say otherwise. But to act like he’s 100% objective is disingenuous, and that horse has been beat quite a few times on this board (eg. Issues with portability takes) and broken down rather than simply complained about.

[PistolPeteJR]

Lebron is an obvious GOAT candidate and a top 5 player of all time. I'm just not in love with him or any player the way some of you guys are in love with Lebron. Ben Taylor must be one of the least objective analysts ever according to you. He gives Curry a +2 and Lebron a -1 on portability.

Taking rigid positions and calling people who disagree with you "unserious" is just going to make me not respond to you. As is misquoting me and attacking the strawman repeatedly. It gets tiresome.

Sad that this is a Curry thread and it devolved into yet another Lebron thread. I'll exit for a while.

Ehhhh, Asking if curry has a goat case automatically means comparision with other players

Lebron is just one of the most prominent roadblocks for anyone to "challenge" for goat status, complaining that this threas brings up lebron comparisions is as if i said shai is the league best player and got annoyed people bring up jokic or giannis

And since a significant part of curry case is dominating in the modern era (compared to the likes lf jordan, russel or kareem) then the contemporaneous player who is a goat contender himself becomes the most inmediate comparision

Let me ask another way since you have jordan as a better player than lebron

Would you agree there is a legit case for curry being greater or better than jordan?

Only if you turn a blind eye to defense.

That’s what he argued for earlier, at least…

[Ainosterhaspie]

nobody becoming a superstar at 25 will ever have GOAT case for me, unless he's a freak like we've never seen. A sort of Steve Nash on steroids (and Curry is not). Fans should rather focus on pushing Curry in the top 10.

This was my thought and it is nice to look at the topic through a lens that doesn't focus on LeBron. All the other top 10 guys were leaps and bounds ahead of Curry from the day they entered the league.

It took him five years to make an all star team and he didn't begin to look like he might be GOAT tier until year six. Blame it on coaching and injuries or whatever, but I just don't see any other GOAT or near GOAT who took that long to show what they were.

He gave such a large lead to the other GOAT candidates that it's just not possible to catch them absent a ridiculously superhuman peak/prime. He just doesn't come anywhere close to separating himself enough from other GOAT level players in his prime years (15-22 or so) to make up for the lost time in his early years.

[Cavsfansince84]

nobody becoming a superstar at 25 will ever have GOAT case for me, unless he's a freak like we've never seen. A sort of Steve Nash on steroids (and Curry is not). Fans should rather focus on pushing Curry in the top 10.

This was my thought and it is nice to look at the topic through a lens that doesn't focus on LeBron. All the other top 10 guys were leaps and bounds ahead of Curry from the day they entered the league.

It took him five years to make an all star team and he didn't begin to look like he might be GOAT tier until year six. Blame it on coaching and injuries or whatever, but I just don't see any other GOAT or near GOAT who took that long to show what they were.

He gave such a large lead to the other GOAT candidates that it's just not possible to catch them absent a ridiculously superhuman peak/prime. He just doesn't come anywhere close to separating himself enough from other GOAT level players in his prime years (15-22 or so) to make up for the lost time in his early years.

I think the only possible pathway for a Curry goat argument would have to have been if he'd been able to pull out that game 7 in 2016, KD doesn't go there as a result(since they probably don't recruit him the same way), then Steph keeps putting up 16 like circus numbers for a few more years, wins another mvp or two and titles in 17/18. That would give him a 4 year stretch with 3-4 mvps, 4 rings and probably 2-3 fmvps. Then maybe still follows it up with the title in 2022. That would give him a pathway for a goat argument imo, not that I'd have him in my top 4 but I think that's what it would have taken. Only player with 4 in a row since Russ in likely the toughest/deepest era talent wise to go with a bunch of mvps.

[jalengreen]

To be frank, it’s pretty obvious this would be a LeBron thread. Cross-era comparisons have more uncertainty than within era comparisons (this should be self-evident, I think), and Steph played concurrently with a GOAT candidate: LeBron James. For him to have a GOAT case (the topic) the easiest place to start is seeing if he has a case against LeBron. If he doesn’t (the conclusion that most people have reasonably reached), then he cannot have a GOAT case.

[parsnips33]

A Jordan vs Steph thread might actually be interesting. The LeBron Steph debate has been done to death a million times by now

[falcolombardi]

A Jordan vs Steph thread might actually be interesting. The LeBron Steph debate has been done to death a million times by now

I think is closer than most would think actually albeit i still would take jordan

granted i am lower than most here on jordan

[trelos6]

RAPM from '97 to '24 with playoffs

Code: Select all

Player      Offense   Defense   Total
Nikola Jokic      7.5      -2.2      9.7
LeBron James      6.5      -2.8      9.3
Chris Paul         5.9      -3.1      9
Kevin Garnett      2.3      -6.3      8.6
Draymond Green   3.1      -5.2      8.3
Paul George      3.4      -4.6      8
Jayson Tatum      5.1      -2.8      7.9
Stephen Curry      7.3      -0.5      7.8
Tim Duncan      2.6      -5.1      7.7


So, in his own "era" he's going to end up as one of the best offensive players. Overall, he's probably not quite as impactful as others due to defense.

[wafflzgod]

Don't think there is any real way to argue from a career value or cumulative prime perspective. Even at his peak, I don't really think he is all that close to the very best player(s) ever simply because his defense (mostly due to physical limitations) just doesn't compare.

However, just to play devil's advocate, I want to try to lay the case for his peak when he was at full health. I think you could credibly argue that he had the single best regular season ever in 2015-16. It is most likely the best offensive RS campaign ever by a decent margin, so even with only slight positive defense (don't think he can be viewed as anything significantly more), the case could be made -- scoring numbers, offensive production, team success without another clear MVP level player, plus-minus metrics all support that he is at worst in the ballpark of the best regular season campaigns ever.

From there, you could argue that this was the level of player that he was and his injuries in the postseason simply derailed him from being easily the best offensive peak ever. The next year, his offensive production in 2017 when the Warriors added Durant are way down compared to his MVP season, but perhaps you could attribute this to the team just being invincible/him coasting more in the regular season/acclimating to having another MVP level guy aside him. His 2017 playoff scoring numbers somewhat resemble his 2016 RS numbers -- 30.1 Inflation-adjusted Pts/75 on +13.2 rTS% -- these are honestly GOAT level scoring playoff numbers. The Warriors obliterated everybody over the course of this season, and are probably the best team ever, driven by Curry. Even with Durant there, Curry's plus-minus numbers indicate he was by far the most valuable player and they were historically great even without KD.

Then, in 2018, Curry was having another monster season. His scoring numbers were again incredible -- 32 IA Pts/75 on +12.5 rTS%. However, he got hurt and only played 50 games and missed time in the postseason, and when he came back he was clearly not at his peak level. While Curry has still been incredible since (2019, 2021-23 are all fantastic seasons), I don't think he has ever been quite gotten back to the level he was at in 2016-18 fully healthy. Looking at the 2016 RS, 2017 playoffs, and 2018 RS pre-injury, we see GOAT level scoring production, and this is in conjugation with what we know he also provides: total outlier shooting and spacing, off-ball creation, elite ball-handling, etc. He is also maybe the easiest offensive player ever to scale up onto high end teams due to his off-ball prowess and the defensive attention he demands. This lays a potential case for clearly the best offensive peak ever in an optimistic lens, especially if you somewhat disregard the other stretches of play due to other factors. So, with arguably the best RS ever (just primarily off of his offensive goodness) and seeing that he at least somewhat resembled that level of play over stretches during the next 2 seasons, I think this would be the case to make as Curry as the GOAT peak...

To be clear, however, I personally think even if viewed as somewhat comfortably the best offensive force ever, I still do think that does not overcome the gap in defensive value from players like LeBron or MJ. Furthermore, this entire line of thinking explained in this post requires too much "gymnastics" and disregarding of lesser stretches of play for me to be even close to comfortable with the idea of Curry as the best player ever.

[O_6]

I have Curry ranked 13th on my all-time list and I think he has a real argument up to the 6/7 range aka around where I have Magic.

If you’re going to argue for him as GOAT though, the path you need to take is pretty obvious.

- Draymond Green and Klay Thompson are overrated and were only able to maximize their impact because of Steph’s one of a kind offensive skill set

While that may be true to a degree, it’s clear that those 2 were still valuable players who had clear A+ strengths to their game (Klay’s shooting, Dray’s defense).

2014-2016 GSW
Big 3 (w/ Curry) —— 16.43 Net (5653 mins)
Big 3 (w/o Curry) —— 6.43 Net (1214 Mins)

Curry’s ability to lift their ceiling is obviously special. That’s his main argument. But it’s hard to point to Klay/Dray being bums when they led the Warriors to such a high mark even without Curry on the floor.

That 6.43 net would rank 3rd/3rd/4th in the league in those 3 years. So those Warriors teams even before KD isn’t some case of Steph lifting a bunch of bums. That was a hell of a team that was obviously centered around him but more than just him. Let’s compare those 3 years to some other great 3 year runs with a teams top 3 players…

2012-2014 Miami Heat (James/Wade/Bosh)
Big 3 (w/ James) —— 9.19 Net (5137 mins)
Big 3 (w/o James) —— -2.87 Net (815 mins)

2015-2017 Cleveland Cavs (James/Kyrie/Love)
Big 3 (w/ James) —— 11.61 Net (4675 mins)
Big 3 (w/o James) —— -2.28 Net (1168 mins)

2005-2007 San Antonio Spurs (Duncan/Manu/Parker)
Big 3 (w/ Duncan) —— 14.71 Net (4198 mins)
Big 3 (w/o Duncan) —— 9.93 Net (1265 mins)

2008-2010 LA Lakers (Kobe/Pau/Odom)
Big 3 (w/ Kobe) —— 12.63 Net (4695 mins)
Big 3 (w/o Kobe) —— 9.19 Net (879 mins)

2001-2003 LA Lakers (Shaq/Kobe/Fisher)
Big 3 (w/ Shaq) —— 9.72 Net (4360 mins)
Big 3 (w/o Shaq) —— -0.02 Net (1547 mins)

2021-2023 Milwaukee Bucks (Giannis/Jrue/Middleton)
Big 3 (w/ Giannis) —— 11.82 Net (2600 mins)
Big 3 (w/o Giannis) —— 4.77 Net (1515 mins)

2022-2024 Denver Nuggets (Jokic/Murray/Gordon)
Big 3 (w/ Jokic) —— 12.00 Net (3243 mins)
Big 3 (w/o Jokic) —— -2.40 Net (522 mins)

2013-2015 LA Clippers (Paul/Griffin/Jordan)
Big 3 (w/ Paul) —— 11.51 Net (5947 mins)
Big 3 (w/o Paul) —— 2.18 Net (1073 mins)

2014-2016 OKC Thunder (Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka)
Big 3 (w/ KD) —— 10.56 Net (4614 mins)
Big 3 (w/o KD) —— 3.08 Net (1391 mins)

What we see from the limited things we have here are that Curry is a beast even though he has good teammates. He can carry a team to greatness. His shooting and off-ball killer play might be able to allow a team to reach heights no other player can do. Draymond and Klay have been real good, let’s put an end to any Curry carry job like that.

Curry really helps Dray offensively for sure but overall he’s the 2nd best player I’ve seen since MJ (LeBron). Kobe vs. Curry is tough. Actually make that 3rd at best, because I think he still needs to do a little more to catch Duncan. Shaq was also Shaq. Curry is one a kind though. Awesome athlete.

LeBron and Jokic stand out still. Among all these guys and yet only a couple can ever get to that level. It’s the scoring/passing/other stuff too combo. These two guys are the best I’ve seen at their peak since MJ. Peak Jokic vs Peak TD is tough, and then obviously TD has longevity. Duncan and KD are close to that here too.

[homecourtloss]

Impact signals are neck and neck.

Lebron is emphatically not a better ceiling raiser than Curry. Steph's teams reached way greater heights both in general and with him on the floor.

Outproducing someone isn't the same as outplaying. Wilt also outproduced Russell but people don't unanimously agree that Wilt outplayed him. Not to mention Lebron and Curry don't even play the same position.

And more portable than Curry is just a comical take.

I don't care if you think Lebron is the GOAT. Many people do but your post is full of fallacies.

Only if you are looking from 2015 to 2019.

Old Man LeBron has been as or more impactful in the 2020-2024 Stretch when he was between 35 and 39 years of age while Curry was much younger.

Then you have all the other years.

You're trying to compare them concurrently and emphasize longevity which everyone already concedes is edge Lebron.

Lebron doesn't have any 5-year stretches that can match 2015-2019 Curry in terms of impact metrics, especially in the RS.

Not true. Curry has one strong 5 year stretch that’s comparable to James’s stretches. James then has better 5 year stretches spanning basically different NBA environments. Your initial post talks about a credible case for goat so you only have one five years stretch that’s comparable. The other player has all these other ones…


https://www.thespax.com/nba/quantifying-the-nbas-greatest-five-year-peaks-since-1997/

[ShotCreator]

Curry at his physical best (2014-2017),was flat out a good defender in both RS and PS. You don't need to change your perception of basketball to say Curry was a positive impact defender.

Offensively, he had resilience issues practically every year of his athletic prime, save for 2017.

Less playoff scoring and play making on worse efficiency every year from 2014 to 2019 except for one.

It's problematic. And it opens the door for Draymond being the Warriors best player, at the Warriors best. I'm fully convinced Draymond was the Warriors best player in 2015 and there's a strong argument for 2016 due to his playoff carry job.

Which is all to say, in a Curry GOAT case scenario, Draymond has to be top 5 or so all-time at least. Now if that doesn't sound credible to you, then you have your answer.

[Colbinii]

A Jordan vs Steph thread might actually be interesting. The LeBron Steph debate has been done to death a million times by now

Id like to see a detailed Steph vs Magic thread.

Steph vs Kobe is another deep-dive I haven't taken.