RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Rust_Cohle]

Cause more playing improves rankings? Obviously if all you care about are rings or best at their best, that wont' work for you. But most people tend to value more quality than less.

Rings over everything is the reality, I'd much rather have MJ's career than LeBron's.

That isn't reality, it's anything but. That's winner bias which is fundamentally incorrect. If the question is who was the greatest player. IF you're asking best career then you have to set reasonable and consistent value on all success.

Or in short...if your argument could be made on ESPN. You're just wrong. And I don't mean wrong about basketball. I mean wrong about how to fundamentally think.

Nah, if it’s a do or die game 7 give me Jordan all day everyday.

[DC_Melo]

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

You're an example of someone who keeps fishing lol
Having one allstar teammate is a superteam now

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

Correct. Because no other team had Jordan.

Take Jordan off the Bulls and they become just another team. Still solid, but none of his teammates were leading the bulls to any titles without Jordan. You know… the way Wade led the Heat to a title without LeBron…

Jus fax

[MavsDirk41]

They won 57 games the year before Jordan retired and 55 games after. MJ is the goat but I imagine had the Bulls made it to the finals people might recognize how much of a gold locks opportunity Michael had to join such a great organization.

And Jordan’s second three peat definitely was a super team. Three HOFs and Harper and Kukoc off the bench could compete with any “Super Team” in any era

Jordan joined a great organization The Bulls never made a Finals appearance before his arrival and haven’t made one since he left but they did manage to win 6 titles in his 11 full seasons with the team. Do you think that was just a coincidence? Also, the Bulls were no super team. Pippen was drafted and Rodman never made an All Star team as a Bull. By 1995, his defense was nowhere near his DPOTY peak as a Piston. He was basically a great rebounder and glue guy by then. Kukoc is a member of the basketball HOF but would never make the NBA HOF if they had one. Nice try though.

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

You contributing the Bulls to being a superteam because of Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr lol? Kukoc won 6 man of the year in 95/96 when the Bulls went 72-10 which was Jordans first full season back from retirement. Toni was a very good role player for the second Bulls 3 peat indeed, but it was the perfect place for him playing with Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc was a secondary type ball handler and their 3rd option offensively. Which was grest cause Rodman gave them nothing offensively. Kerr was just a spot up 3 point shooter. Nothing more. Harper was there for his defense only. He was in his 30s when he went to Chicago, a career 28% 3 point shooter, with no playmaking skills. Not sure why Kerr or Harper especially make them a superteam lol? I can name several other superstar players who played with all star players, great 6th man of the year candidates, and guys like Kerr who can shoot 3s.

[Darthlukey]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Yeah, forming greatness over time means nothing. Even if you help that forward and that coach develop along the way as much as they helped you.

[ScrantonBulls]

Jordan joined a great organization The Bulls never made a Finals appearance before his arrival and haven’t made one since he left but they did manage to win 6 titles in his 11 full seasons with the team. Do you think that was just a coincidence? Also, the Bulls were no super team. Pippen was drafted and Rodman never made an All Star team as a Bull. By 1995, his defense was nowhere near his DPOTY peak as a Piston. He was basically a great rebounder and glue guy by then. Kukoc is a member of the basketball HOF but would never make the NBA HOF if they had one. Nice try though.

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

You contributing the Bulls to being a superteam because of Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr lol? Kukoc won 6 man of the year in 95/96 when the Bulls went 72-10 which was Jordans first full season back from retirement. Toni was a very good role player for the second Bulls 3 peat indeed, but it was the perfect place for him playing with Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc was a secondary type ball handler and their 3rd option offensively. Which was grest cause Rodman gave them nothing offensively. Kerr was just a spot up 3 point shooter. Nothing more. Harper was there for his defense only. He was in his 30s when he went to Chicago, a career 28% 3 point shooter, with no playmaking skills. Not sure why Kerr or Harper especially make them a superteam lol? I can name several other superstar players who played with all star players, great 6th man of the year candidates, and guys like Kerr who can shoot 3s.

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

[ScrantonBulls]

Must of been a super slow decline his last 3 prime years after his last title he averaged a 23 PER and 27/5/5. He was just never going to be a top 5 guy. He was a B+ Jordan and no one has been close to that kind of player since (we will see what Ant ends up doing).

27/5/5 in a league with subtly inflating stats as spacing became more prevalent. He was better the years prior to that.

PER tends to favor bigs and point scorers, by the way. It's definitely not the best
way to measure Kobe, or non-point players who are further from the rim (rebounds/assists). Creating your own shot (volume scoring) is an important skill, and one that
PER doesn't take into account enough.

Yes, I agree on him being a B+ Jordan, but that doesn't stop the fact that he was in the media in GOAT debates
and considered number one for a long time.

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. Do you just not like that he was considered better than Lebron by the media/population
for a while? I guess it does put things more into perspective, which isn't fun if you're a Lebron fan. Understandable, but that's what happened.

What does Kobe being considered or not considered the best ever have to do with LeBron? LeBron is a better player then Kobe by alot doesn't really matter when the media caught up to that or not. Its just a fact. Has nothing to do with how Kobe was being ranked. Kobe might have at one point been thought of as the best NBA player. That doesn't mean he was the best of all time. He was never that good to be #1. He had a great career and was probably the 10th best to ever do it. Nothing wrong with that.

He's so insecure about LeBron being mentioned in Jordan's tier that he needs to create a false narrative that Kobe was a GOAT candidate but it faded as time went on. It's his way of coping and telling himself that the LeBron GOAT arguments will fade away as well. It's a hilarious display of mental gymnastics, I must say.

[LaLover11]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Yeah, forming greatness over time means nothing. Even if you help that forward and that coach develop along the way as much as they helped you.

Very true 100%

[DimesandKnicks]

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

You contributing the Bulls to being a superteam because of Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr lol? Kukoc won 6 man of the year in 95/96 when the Bulls went 72-10 which was Jordans first full season back from retirement. Toni was a very good role player for the second Bulls 3 peat indeed, but it was the perfect place for him playing with Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc was a secondary type ball handler and their 3rd option offensively. Which was grest cause Rodman gave them nothing offensively. Kerr was just a spot up 3 point shooter. Nothing more. Harper was there for his defense only. He was in his 30s when he went to Chicago, a career 28% 3 point shooter, with no playmaking skills. Not sure why Kerr or Harper especially make them a superteam lol? I can name several other superstar players who played with all star players, great 6th man of the year candidates, and guys like Kerr who can shoot 3s.

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

Three hall of famers, and role players. Thats a super team. Name another version of that that isn’t a superteam

[LaLover11]

You're an example of someone who keeps fishing lol
Having one allstar teammate is a superteam now

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

Correct. Because no other team had Jordan.

Take Jordan off the Bulls and they become just another team. Still solid, but none of his teammates were leading the bulls to any titles without Jordan. You know… the way Wade led the Heat to a title without LeBron…

Jus fax

Take off Jordan and Give Pippen Shaq or Reggie Miller instead and he would be a contender without MJ

Read on Twitter

?t=BRQNjbWnHsWiRcZbWoM2Ww&s=19

[ScrantonBulls]

You contributing the Bulls to being a superteam because of Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr lol? Kukoc won 6 man of the year in 95/96 when the Bulls went 72-10 which was Jordans first full season back from retirement. Toni was a very good role player for the second Bulls 3 peat indeed, but it was the perfect place for him playing with Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc was a secondary type ball handler and their 3rd option offensively. Which was grest cause Rodman gave them nothing offensively. Kerr was just a spot up 3 point shooter. Nothing more. Harper was there for his defense only. He was in his 30s when he went to Chicago, a career 28% 3 point shooter, with no playmaking skills. Not sure why Kerr or Harper especially make them a superteam lol? I can name several other superstar players who played with all star players, great 6th man of the year candidates, and guys like Kerr who can shoot 3s.

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

Three hall of famers, and role players. Thats a super team. Name another version of that that isn’t a superteam

4 HOFers actually Kukoc is a HOFer. Totally not a superteam though! /s

[michaelm]

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

You're an example of someone who keeps fishing lol
Having one allstar teammate is a superteam now

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

That team was built around Jordan however. Pippen developed next to him. No such player ever developed next to LeBron. A good case can be made circumstances didn’t allow this with LeBron, but I don’t see that Jordan needs to be downgraded due to something for which he was significantly responsible. If a better team can be built around Jordan then in the team sport of basketball that makes Jordan better imo. How have the Bulls gone before and after Jordan ?. Fairly similarly to Cleveland without LeBron it appears to me, except the Jordan Bulls won 6 titles rather than one. Sure you couldn’t keep a team like the Bulls together these days, but in addition to Pippen a significant contributor to the strength of the 2nd threepeat team in Rodman was accepted and accommodated by Jordan despite previous bitter enmity, and was also regarded as washed up when the Bulls signed him.

[ScrantonBulls]

You're an example of someone who keeps fishing lol
Having one allstar teammate is a superteam now

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

That team was built around Jordan however. Pippen developed next to him. No such player ever developed next to LeBron. A good case can be made circumstances didn’t allow this with LeBron, but I don’t see that Jordan needs to be downgraded due to something for which he was significantly responsible. If a better team can be built around Jordan then in the team sport of basketball that makes Jordan better imo. How have the Bulls gone before and after Jordan ?. Fairly similarly to Cleveland without LeBron it appears to me, except the Jordan Bulls won 6 titles rather than one. Sure you couldn’t keep a team like the Bulls together these days, but in addition to Pippen a significant contributor to the strength of the 2nd threepeat team in Rodman was accepted and accommodated by Jordan despite previous bitter enmity, and was also regarded as washed up when the Bulls signed him.

Does any other player get as much credit as MJ does for their teammates developing? He even gets credit for "resurrecting" Rodman apparently, lol

Let me guess - does MJ get credit for the 55-27 team after he retired the first time too?

[michaelm]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Yeah, forming greatness over time means nothing. Even if you help that forward and that coach develop along the way as much as they helped you.

Just made the same point. How is the fact that a great team can be and was built around Jordan a knock on Jordan ?, in the team sport of basketball. He also accepted coaching from the great coach involved with the Bulls including a game plan that took the ball out of his hands to a significant degree.

Imo LeBron is a better floor raiser than Jordan, very likely the best ever, and probably has more individual attributes even than Jordan. Cleveland were also a terrible organisation during LeBron’s first tenure there, and I strongly doubt MJ or anyone else could have done better there. Since then LeBron has largely chosen his teams, and just about completely chosen his coaches. Admirable probably that he has been so completely his own man, but he bears the consequences of his own choices.

IMO there is a limit on how good teams playing heliocentric LeBronball can be, and that the greatest team of all time and possibly the second greatest were built around Jordan and Curry respectively adds to rather than detracts from the merits of those players.

[michaelm]

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

That team was built around Jordan however. Pippen developed next to him. No such player ever developed next to LeBron. A good case can be made circumstances didn’t allow this with LeBron, but I don’t see that Jordan needs to be downgraded due to something for which he was significantly responsible. If a better team can be built around Jordan then in the team sport of basketball that makes Jordan better imo. How have the Bulls gone before and after Jordan ?. Fairly similarly to Cleveland without LeBron it appears to me, except the Jordan Bulls won 6 titles rather than one. Sure you couldn’t keep a team like the Bulls together these days, but in addition to Pippen a significant contributor to the strength of the 2nd threepeat team in Rodman was accepted and accommodated by Jordan despite previous bitter enmity, and was also regarded as washed up when the Bulls signed him.

Does any other player get as much credit as MJ does for their teammates developing? He even gets credit for "resurrecting" Rodman apparently, lol

Let me guess - does MJ get credit for the 55-27 team after he retired the first time too?

So having a team collapse without you is the mark of greatness ?. How exactly does the coach and GM at the MJ Bulls doing their jobs well with MJ’s cooperation detract from MJ ?.

[MavsDirk41]

You contributing the Bulls to being a superteam because of Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr lol? Kukoc won 6 man of the year in 95/96 when the Bulls went 72-10 which was Jordans first full season back from retirement. Toni was a very good role player for the second Bulls 3 peat indeed, but it was the perfect place for him playing with Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc was a secondary type ball handler and their 3rd option offensively. Which was grest cause Rodman gave them nothing offensively. Kerr was just a spot up 3 point shooter. Nothing more. Harper was there for his defense only. He was in his 30s when he went to Chicago, a career 28% 3 point shooter, with no playmaking skills. Not sure why Kerr or Harper especially make them a superteam lol? I can name several other superstar players who played with all star players, great 6th man of the year candidates, and guys like Kerr who can shoot 3s.

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

Three hall of famers, and role players. Thats a super team. Name another version of that that isn’t a superteam

If you want to call the 2nd 3 peat Bulls a superteam because of Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman that’s fine but you have to consider that Pippen missed half the season in 98 with an injury and reinjured his back during the finals. Rodman was also on his way out of the league and was a huge distraction that year.

As far as Ron Harper the season before he joined the Bulls he played for the 27-55 Clippers averaging 20 points a game on 18 field goal attempts per game shooting 42% from the field and 30% from 3 with over 3 turnovers per game. He was used as a defensive player on the Bulls. Why would they want him to shoot lol?

What did Toni Kukoc accomplish in the nba to be a HOF player? Detlef Schrempf didnt make the HOF after playing 16 years in the nba, making the all nba team one year, 3x all star, and 2x 6 man of the year. Pretty sure Toni never accomplished anything close to that. And i like Toni but come on lol

[ScrantonBulls]

That team was built around Jordan however. Pippen developed next to him. No such player ever developed next to LeBron. A good case can be made circumstances didn’t allow this with LeBron, but I don’t see that Jordan needs to be downgraded due to something for which he was significantly responsible. If a better team can be built around Jordan then in the team sport of basketball that makes Jordan better imo. How have the Bulls gone before and after Jordan ?. Fairly similarly to Cleveland without LeBron it appears to me, except the Jordan Bulls won 6 titles rather than one. Sure you couldn’t keep a team like the Bulls together these days, but in addition to Pippen a significant contributor to the strength of the 2nd threepeat team in Rodman was accepted and accommodated by Jordan despite previous bitter enmity, and was also regarded as washed up when the Bulls signed him.

Does any other player get as much credit as MJ does for their teammates developing? He even gets credit for "resurrecting" Rodman apparently, lol

Let me guess - does MJ get credit for the 55-27 team after he retired the first time too?

So having a team collapse without you is the mark of greatness ?. How exactly does the coach and GM at the MJ Bulls doing their jobs well with MJ’s cooperation detract from MJ ?.

It shows that he had ridiculously strong supporting casts/superteams, that's all. If a team absolutely crumbles when 1 player is removed, it shows how much said player was carrying to teams.

Do you agree that no player gets more credit for the success of other players/their development than MJ? I'm not talking about directly impacting them on court with an assist or anything like that. You just gave MJ a ton of credit for Pippen developing, and gave him most of the credit for Rodman being great during the 3-peat. It's so exaggerated and honestly ridiculous.

[ScrantonBulls]

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

Three hall of famers, and role players. Thats a super team. Name another version of that that isn’t a superteam

If you want to call the 2nd 3 peat Bulls a superteam because of Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman that’s fine but you have to consider that Pippen missed half the season in 98 with an injury and reinjured his back during the finals. Rodman was also on his way out of the league and was a huge distraction that year.

As far as Ron Harper the season before he joined the Bulls he played for the 27-55 Clippers averaging 20 points a game on 18 field goal attempts per game shooting 42% from the field and 30% from 3 with over 3 turnovers per game. He was used as a defensive player on the Bulls. Why would they want him to shoot lol?

What did Toni Kukoc accomplish in the nba to be a HOF player? Detlef Schrempf didnt make the HOF after playing 16 years in the nba, making the all nba team one year, 3x all star, and 2x 6 man of the year. Pretty sure Toni never accomplished anything close to that. And i like Toni but come on lol

That's funny. Again, why are you unable to use this context when evaluating other "superteams"? I've never seen you do that with the Cavs when Kyrie and/or Love were injured, or acknowledge that Wade was washed by 2014. You just blindly say "superteam1!", and that's really the extent of your analysis/context.

Using your logic here, the Cavs weren't a superteam when they won in 2016 because Love was rendered useless from the concussion.

[michaelm]

Does any other player get as much credit as MJ does for their teammates developing? He even gets credit for "resurrecting" Rodman apparently, lol

Let me guess - does MJ get credit for the 55-27 team after he retired the first time too?

So having a team collapse without you is the mark of greatness ?. How exactly does the coach and GM at the MJ Bulls doing their jobs well with MJ’s cooperation detract from MJ ?.

It shows that he had ridiculously strong supporting casts/superteams, that's all. If a team absolutely crumbles when 1 player is removed, it shows how much said player was carrying to teams.

Do you agree that no player gets more credit for the success of other players/their development than MJ? I'm not talking about directly impacting them on court with an assist or anything like that. You just gave MJ a ton of credit for Pippen developing, and gave him most of the credit for Rodman being great during the 3-peat. It's so exaggerated and honestly ridiculous.

My point is a general one about team vs individual play in the team sport of basketball. I don’t see how a great team being built around MJ and him accepting coaching and a game plan from a coach detracts from him, that is all.

MJ indeed didn’t become successful until he accepted those things. I have actually said in another post LeBron probably has a greater sum of attributes as an individual player, but the heliocentric game plan, certainly the coaches and significantly the players on his teams since 2010 have been pretty much his choice, and hence the consequences of his choices are also on him imo. I don’t see how LeBron's teams collapsing without him exalts him over MJ who allowed a GM to do his job, and accepted coaching and a game plan from a coach who became great in the process, all of which would seem to me to have been good choices made by him.

I absolutely agree the 71 win Bulls were better than any LeBron team, and are likely the best team in NBA history. I just don’t see how that is a knock on MJ. I am a GSW fan who has the same opinion in regard to Curry and what may be the second best team ever, the 2017 GSW team.

[NZB2323]

You contributing the Bulls to being a superteam because of Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr lol? Kukoc won 6 man of the year in 95/96 when the Bulls went 72-10 which was Jordans first full season back from retirement. Toni was a very good role player for the second Bulls 3 peat indeed, but it was the perfect place for him playing with Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc was a secondary type ball handler and their 3rd option offensively. Which was grest cause Rodman gave them nothing offensively. Kerr was just a spot up 3 point shooter. Nothing more. Harper was there for his defense only. He was in his 30s when he went to Chicago, a career 28% 3 point shooter, with no playmaking skills. Not sure why Kerr or Harper especially make them a superteam lol? I can name several other superstar players who played with all star players, great 6th man of the year candidates, and guys like Kerr who can shoot 3s.

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

Three hall of famers, and role players. Thats a super team. Name another version of that that isn’t a superteam

If 3 stars is a superteam, then outside of Jordan’s rookie year, he only lost to superteams in the playoffs.

1986: Bird, McHale, Parish
1987: Bird, McHale, Parish
1988: Thomas, Dumars, Rodman
1989: Thomas, Dumars, Rodman
1990: Thomas, Dumars, Rodman
1995: Shaq, Penny, Horace Grant

[mowcrowbar]

Let's end this right now. LeBron is the GOAT in terms of longevity and dominance. MJ is the undisputed GOAT during the short period he played in. They are GOATs regardless.