RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[ckman]

Curry saved US ass and Lebron the GOAT

Except even if Curry did his usual and choked under the pressure and missed all of his shots France would have still lost..

If Curry did your so called "choke under pressure" and missed all his shots , US would be playing for Bronze instead of France

[DB23]

It just doesn’t feel that close an argument.

Really you could only say that Lebron played at a higher level for longer. But at a time when sports science has improved so much that’s pretty weak. In truth he resume just doesn’t stack up, nor the context of their careers.

Can’t imagine the ones voting for Lebron actually lived through the Jordan experience.

[FrodoFraggins]

A U.S. player winning Olympic gold in basketball was like Durant winning a title with the already stacked Warriors. It's not really much of a legacy changer sadly.

[DC_Melo]

90's Teams never had a better overall team and talent and coaching compared to the 90's Bulls

It's just facts

Correct. Because no other team had Jordan.

Take Jordan off the Bulls and they become just another team. Still solid, but none of his teammates were leading the bulls to any titles without Jordan. You know… the way Wade led the Heat to a title without LeBron…

Jus fax

Take off Jordan and Give Pippen Shaq or Reggie Miller instead and he would be a contender without MJ

Love Reggie but don’t see how he fits in here. Prime Shaq? Sure. On his last productive legs Shaq that Wade had to work with? Likely not. Wade was a self made champ and very deserving Finals MVP before Lebron ever joined him.

Not to mention Pippen was a rookie that joined the Bulls when Jordan was already a veteran. Jordan helped develop him into an all-star instead of pressuring the team to trade him for an established star… like Lebron did with Wiggins. Imagine how good Wiggins could’ve been if Lebron had taken him under his wing…

[DimesandKnicks]

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

Three hall of famers, and role players. Thats a super team. Name another version of that that isn’t a superteam

If 3 stars is a superteam, then outside of Jordan’s rookie year, he only lost to superteams in the playoffs.

1986: Bird, McHale, Parish
1987: Bird, McHale, Parish
1988: Thomas, Dumars, Rodman
1989: Thomas, Dumars, Rodman
1990: Thomas, Dumars, Rodman
1995: Shaq, Penny, Horace Grant

I said three HOFers sir

[One Last Shot]

Good post. And yes longevity means next to nothing to me without winning.It's basically an attendance award. I put Lebron in the lower parts of the top ten. But no higher because of his manipulation of the system for cheap wins and he's lack of leadership, weak finals record, and fear of the big shot ect. Lebronsexuals call it hating but its just facts.

I don’t love Lebron, but none of that is facts aside from his finals record. Those are your opinions.

It's also a fact that he colluded with 2 other top ten players at the time to stack the deck in his favor. And even then he underachieved....But just those 2 facts are enough to disqualify him from being anywhere near the top end of the top ten for me.

Do you really think that Bosh was atleast as good as LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Howard, Melo, Dirk, Nash, Duncan, Howard and Garnett in 2010? Or better than Deron, Joe Johnson, Amare, Brandon Roy, Rondo, Gasol or Chris Paul? That's like what, 16 players who lead their team to playoffs and I think was better than Chris Bosh who lead the Raptors to lottery in 2010 and guess what, I didn't even include Wade so how did you come up with the conclusion that Chris Bosh was a top 10 player in 2010? I've seen you hoping for LeBron to sign with the Knicks in 2010 offseason, is that the root cause of this hate for LeBron? It's been 14 years Rhodey.. let it go. You are mocking LeBron's "weak Finals Record" but in order to reach 9 NBA Finals in 10 years, you need to win atleast 27 playoffs series and LeBron just did that while the Knicks won like 3 playoffs series in the last 24 years. I'm not mocking the Knicks, I'm excited for the squad they assemble this upcoming season and hope they go all the way as the Knicks fans deserve it but this unreasonable hate you have for LeBron is long overdue, let it go. He's also the only player in NBA history who won 3 NBA titles/Finals MVP for 3 different teams/coach/system so I'm not sure where you are getting this lack of leadership. Regarding Bron's "fear of the big shot", here's something for you.

Read on Twitter

[LaLover11]

Correct. Because no other team had Jordan.

Take Jordan off the Bulls and they become just another team. Still solid, but none of his teammates were leading the bulls to any titles without Jordan. You know… the way Wade led the Heat to a title without LeBron…

Jus fax

Take off Jordan and Give Pippen Shaq or Reggie Miller instead and he would be a contender without MJ

Love Reggie but don’t see how he fits in here. Prime Shaq? Sure. On his last productive legs Shaq that Wade had to work with? Likely not. Wade was a self made champ and very deserving Finals MVP before Lebron ever joined him.

Not to mention Pippen was a rookie that joined the Bulls when Jordan was already a veteran. Jordan helped develop him into an all-star instead of pressuring the team to trade him for an established star… like Lebron did with Wiggins. Imagine how good Wiggins could’ve been if Lebron had taken him under his wing…

Wiggins was clearly overrated during his draft and the Cavs/LeBron made the right choice to get Klove instead.

Pippen being a Point Forward with Reggie being the main scorer would've been a good match together, let's not forget about the bulls also having Kukoc, Rodman, Kerr, Grant, BJ, Hodges, Lux

That team would've dominated the 90's 100%

Orlando Shaq with Pippen and semi fat Laker Shaq also would've destroyed the league together

[DB23]

I don’t love Lebron, but none of that is facts aside from his finals record. Those are your opinions.

It's also a fact that he colluded with 2 other top ten players at the time to stack the deck in his favor. And even then he underachieved....But just those 2 facts are enough to disqualify him from being anywhere near the top end of the top ten for me.

Do you really think that Bosh was atleast as good as LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Howard, Melo, Dirk, Nash, Duncan, Howard and Garnett in 2010? Or better than Deron, Joe Johnson, Amare, Brandon Roy, Rondo, Gasol or Chris Paul? That's like what, 16 players who lead their team to playoffs and I think was better than Chris Bosh who lead the Raptors to lottery in 2010 and guess what, I didn't even include Wade so how did you come up with the conclusion that Chris Bosh was a top 10 player in 2010? I've seen you hoping for LeBron to sign with the Knicks in 2010 offseason, is that the root cause of this hate for LeBron? It's been 14 years Rhodey.. let it go. You are mocking LeBron's "weak Finals Record" but in order to reach 9 NBA Finals in 10 years, you need to win atleast 27 playoffs series and LeBron just did that while the Knicks won like 3 playoffs series in the last 24 years. I'm not mocking the Knicks, I'm excited for the squad they assemble this upcoming season and hope they go all the way as the Knicks fans deserve it but this unreasonable hate you have for LeBron is long overdue, let it go. He's also the only player in NBA history who won 3 NBA titles/Finals MVP for 3 different teams/coach/system so I'm not sure where you are getting this lack of leadership. Regarding Bron's "fear of the big shot", here's something for you.

Read on Twitter

You say 3 different titles with different teams like it is a good thing? When we know he hand picked specific rosters and situations. That’s not a plus in my book.

[bledredwine]

Explain and support please?

You can't really get mad at that. Actually, you can because of the way it was said.
But in terms of ranking some of those guys ahead as players, I get it.

Though Lebron can be consensus top 3 for the population, the only requirement for Lebron for someone should be top 10. Anyone saying outside of 10 is bizarre since there would be no argument for those guys over Lebron, but Lebron has never had a stretch of individual and team domination, which is important to be considered a consensus top 3, without any questioning. I have him at 4, btw.

Point being, I can see a good argument for any of those guys mentioned, if you don't care much for longevity.
Lebron has better individual stats and individual achievements, but not
necessarily team chemistry or results, and that's important as a leader.

And this is the biggest era for statistical blowup since the 70s anyway for all point-scorers (Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook during his prime, all had insane stats). That's why he's polarizing, just as Kobe was polarizing from a statistical/efficiency perspective.

I've got him alongside Russell (Jordan/Kareem/Wilt are my top 3, without a doubt, but I can see why people would rank others over Wilt for the same reasons as mentioned above). I'd pick Hakeem over Lebron in a draft, hoping I could pair a second star with him in his prime. I'd also pick Magic or Duncan over him if I have more talent on my team. But still, I have to put Lebron at 4th all time, simply because of his longevity and covering the individual/team achievements over time (After Jordan, Kareem, and then Wilt who was so dominant that I can't place him any lower).

Either way, you can't get upset at someone not being as impressed with Lebron as those guys unless Lebron had all of the bases covered and absolutely dominated the league in his prime from an individual and team perspective like Jordan or Kareem. He simply has not. Steph's team has been the one to shine, as did the older Spurs, and Miami big 3, Miami who were underwhelming, by the way, considering the expectations. 2011 is also a significant blemish, even if it was a one time thing. You can't really complain about Duncan or Bird's job in their finals, for example.

The winning and team dominance are important. It reveals the leadership, not just the individual stats of a player.
Hakeem, Bird, etc had this leadership in spades, and it influenced how those around them played. Most importantly, the players' talents were maximized around Hakeem, Bird, Duncan and Magic.

I'll just push back on the easy statistical era argument against Lebron. The league wide average ppg is actually lower overall during his career than is for MJ. Sure it's higher scoring now but this is the tail end of his career, he started his career in the lowest scoring era in NBA history.

Lebrons longevity makes it hard to grasp the changing eras he gone through (and people tend to forget how high scoring 80s were). Westbrook joined the league 5 years later and Luka is basically a new generation who's rookies season started a whole new jump in ppg.

League wide ppg during their careers
Lebron: 103.3
MJ: 104.3 (Chicago years only)
Westbrook 105.3
Luka: 112.5

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

League wide PPG was definitely higher in the 10's than the 90's and has been significantly peaking as Lebron ages, which would explain how good he looks in older age (statistically)

Jordan's entire 2 3-peats and finals appearances were spent with PPG in the 90's. Lebron's last two were at 105 and 108 ppg league wide. But that's not even the important trait.

The importances of the statistical blow up is how easy it is for the stars to drive/kick in the game, and sure enough, stars now control far more possession than those of the 90s. I forgot the stat but we discussed it in another thread (it was 13 players now have X possession or above and in the 90s it was like 1 or 2. I'll have to look it up again).

As a result - In terms of PER, it isn’t even close how inflated it is among the stars now compared to those of the 90s.

In the 90s, a 30 PER was unheard of and this was done without the help of three pointers as well. Stats have definitely been inflated. Westbrook averaged nearly a 30 point triple double across three seasons. There’s no chance he pulls that off in the 90s. You also had Isiah Thomas leading the league in points with a vastly inferior skill set- no chance in the 90s that he’d do that.

You’ve had years, even in Lebron’s prime where a player had a higher PER (Steph for example). In Jordan’s career, he was far ahead of the rest. Even Hakeem had a PER of 25. Are you telling me Embiid is better than Hakeem Olajuwon?

PER is inflated now and Jokic is continuing to expose that, as I predicted players would all the way back in the 2010’s. I can post the lists later and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

[zimpy27]

It's also a fact that he colluded with 2 other top ten players at the time to stack the deck in his favor. And even then he underachieved....But just those 2 facts are enough to disqualify him from being anywhere near the top end of the top ten for me.

Do you really think that Bosh was atleast as good as LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Howard, Melo, Dirk, Nash, Duncan, Howard and Garnett in 2010? Or better than Deron, Joe Johnson, Amare, Brandon Roy, Rondo, Gasol or Chris Paul? That's like what, 16 players who lead their team to playoffs and I think was better than Chris Bosh who lead the Raptors to lottery in 2010 and guess what, I didn't even include Wade so how did you come up with the conclusion that Chris Bosh was a top 10 player in 2010? I've seen you hoping for LeBron to sign with the Knicks in 2010 offseason, is that the root cause of this hate for LeBron? It's been 14 years Rhodey.. let it go. You are mocking LeBron's "weak Finals Record" but in order to reach 9 NBA Finals in 10 years, you need to win atleast 27 playoffs series and LeBron just did that while the Knicks won like 3 playoffs series in the last 24 years. I'm not mocking the Knicks, I'm excited for the squad they assemble this upcoming season and hope they go all the way as the Knicks fans deserve it but this unreasonable hate you have for LeBron is long overdue, let it go. He's also the only player in NBA history who won 3 NBA titles/Finals MVP for 3 different teams/coach/system so I'm not sure where you are getting this lack of leadership. Regarding Bron's "fear of the big shot", here's something for you.

Read on Twitter

You say 3 different titles with different teams like it is a good thing? When we know he hand picked specific rosters and situations. That’s not a plus in my book.

Hand picked the Heat. The other were not really basketball decisions. Cavs was about bringing a championship to Cleveland and Lakers was about living in LA.

Neither place was the best set up to win.

The went 33-49 Cavs before he arrived, Lakers were 35-47. They had young players and each team needed to make a trade for a all NBA big to be competitive.

There were other much better options available.

[KGtabake]

Based on the whole Olympics discussion, Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony are the greatest players of all time.

[bledredwine]

You can't really get mad at that. Actually, you can because of the way it was said.
But in terms of ranking some of those guys ahead as players, I get it.

Though Lebron can be consensus top 3 for the population, the only requirement for Lebron for someone should be top 10. Anyone saying outside of 10 is bizarre since there would be no argument for those guys over Lebron, but Lebron has never had a stretch of individual and team domination, which is important to be considered a consensus top 3, without any questioning. I have him at 4, btw.

Point being, I can see a good argument for any of those guys mentioned, if you don't care much for longevity.
Lebron has better individual stats and individual achievements, but not
necessarily team chemistry or results, and that's important as a leader.

And this is the biggest era for statistical blowup since the 70s anyway for all point-scorers (Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook during his prime, all had insane stats). That's why he's polarizing, just as Kobe was polarizing from a statistical/efficiency perspective.

I've got him alongside Russell (Jordan/Kareem/Wilt are my top 3, without a doubt, but I can see why people would rank others over Wilt for the same reasons as mentioned above). I'd pick Hakeem over Lebron in a draft, hoping I could pair a second star with him in his prime. I'd also pick Magic or Duncan over him if I have more talent on my team. But still, I have to put Lebron at 4th all time, simply because of his longevity and covering the individual/team achievements over time (After Jordan, Kareem, and then Wilt who was so dominant that I can't place him any lower).

Either way, you can't get upset at someone not being as impressed with Lebron as those guys unless Lebron had all of the bases covered and absolutely dominated the league in his prime from an individual and team perspective like Jordan or Kareem. He simply has not. Steph's team has been the one to shine, as did the older Spurs, and Miami big 3, Miami who were underwhelming, by the way, considering the expectations. 2011 is also a significant blemish, even if it was a one time thing. You can't really complain about Duncan or Bird's job in their finals, for example.

The winning and team dominance are important. It reveals the leadership, not just the individual stats of a player.
Hakeem, Bird, etc had this leadership in spades, and it influenced how those around them played. Most importantly, the players' talents were maximized around Hakeem, Bird, Duncan and Magic.

I'll just push back on the easy statistical era argument against Lebron. The league wide average ppg is actually lower overall during his career than is for MJ. Sure it's higher scoring now but this is the tail end of his career, he started his career in the lowest scoring era in NBA history.

Lebrons longevity makes it hard to grasp the changing eras he gone through (and people tend to forget how high scoring 80s were). Westbrook joined the league 5 years later and Luka is basically a new generation who's rookies season started a whole new jump in ppg.

League wide ppg during their careers
Lebron: 103.3
MJ: 104.3 (Chicago years only)
Westbrook 105.3
Luka: 112.5

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

League wide PPG was definitely higher in the 10's than the 90's and has been significantly peaking as Lebron ages, which would explain how good he looks in older age (statistically)

Jordan's entire 2 3-peats and finals appearances were spent with PPG in the 90's. Lebron's last two were at 105 and 108 ppg league wide. But that's not even the important trait.

The importances of the statistical blow up is how easy it is for the stars to drive/kick in the game, and sure enough, stars now control far more possession than those of the 90s. I forgot the stat but we discussed it in another thread (it was 13 players now have X possession or above and in the 90s it was like 1 or 2. I'll have to look it up again).

As a result - In terms of PER, it isn’t even close how inflated it is among the stars now compared to those of the 90s.

In the 90s, a 30 PER was unheard of and this was done without the help of three pointers as well. Stats have definitely been inflated. Westbrook averaged nearly a 30 point triple double across three seasons. There’s no chance he pulls that off in the 90s. You also had Isiah Thomas leading the league in points with a vastly inferior skill set- no chance in the 90s that he’d do that.

You’ve had years, even in Lebron’s prime where a player had a higher PER (Steph for example). In Jordan’s career, he was far ahead of the rest. Even Hakeem had a PER of 25. Are you telling me Embiid is better than Hakeem Olajuwon?

PER is inflated now and Jokic is continuing to expose that, as I predicted players would all the way back in the 2010’s. I can post the lists later and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Take a look at this list. Look at that anomaly. (PER leap)

2023-24 NBA Nikola Jokić 30.97 DEN
2022-23 NBA Nikola Jokić 31.51 DEN
2021-22 NBA Nikola Jokić 32.85 DEN
2020-21 NBA Nikola Jokić 31.28 DEN
2019-20 NBA Giannis Antetokounmpo 31.86 MIL
2018-19 NBA Giannis Antetokounmpo 30.88 MIL
2017-18 NBA James Harden 29.83 HOU
2016-17 NBA Russell Westbrook 30.63 OKC
2015-16 NBA Stephen Curry 31.46 GSW
2014-15 NBA Anthony Davis 30.81 NOP
2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant 29.82 OKC
2012-13 NBA LeBron James 31.59 MIA
2011-12 NBA LeBron James 30.74 MIA
2010-11 NBA LeBron James 27.27 MIA
2009-10 NBA LeBron James 31.10 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 31.67 CLE
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 29.14 CLE
2006-07 NBA Dwyane Wade* 28.91 MIA
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki* 28.06 DAL
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett* 28.20 MIN
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett* 29.44 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady* 30.27 ORL
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 29.68 LAL
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 30.23 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 30.65 LAL
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 30.55 LAL
1997-98 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 28.79 LAL
1996-97 NBA Karl Malone* 28.90 UTA
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 29.41 SAS
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 29.13 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 30.66 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.70 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.75 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.18 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.14 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.71 CHI
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.78 CHI
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 25.61 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 26.54 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 24.64 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 25.12 PHI
1981-82 NBA

Now look at how many players in the 10's and 20's you have with 30 PER... Anthony Davis? James Harden? Giannis, Jokic, WESTBROOK?

PER has been heavily inflated ever since it the court became open, threes expanded the game and made it easier for players to drive and kick and remember,

All of Jokic, Giannis and Luka have confirmed the game to be easier for them, Jokic specifically singling out the 3-second rule, stating that he takes advantage of that and it makes the game "so easy"


Now, what do we notice about that PER list? Among the top are bigs or players who rebound/block a lot, and point scorers exclusively. And that's because PER favors raw stats, not necessarily how great a player is. Of course it won't favor shooting guards. It'll make Kobe look worse than he actually was, because he definitely was better than Lebron for the first six years of Lebron's career. The league knew it, the GM voting knew it, the media knew it, and they even knew it as late as the olympics. But that's when their careers were beginning to intersect and Lebron was taking over.

Jordan, however, was an anomaly. He was automatic. He got that high of a PER without the rebounds/assists playing shooting guard in a system. The only other player to somewhat replicate that dominance (scoring at will) was Steph during his freakish year when he was lights out. But once again, PER has been inflated since and he couldn't replicate it in the playoffs.

[dhsilv2]

Rings over everything is the reality, I'd much rather have MJ's career than LeBron's.

That isn't reality, it's anything but. That's winner bias which is fundamentally incorrect. If the question is who was the greatest player. IF you're asking best career then you have to set reasonable and consistent value on all success.

Or in short...if your argument could be made on ESPN. You're just wrong. And I don't mean wrong about basketball. I mean wrong about how to fundamentally think.

Nah, if it’s a do or die game 7 give me Jordan all day everyday.

OK...doesn't really answer the question of GOAT.

[DC_Melo]

Take off Jordan and Give Pippen Shaq or Reggie Miller instead and he would be a contender without MJ

Love Reggie but don’t see how he fits in here. Prime Shaq? Sure. On his last productive legs Shaq that Wade had to work with? Likely not. Wade was a self made champ and very deserving Finals MVP before Lebron ever joined him.

Not to mention Pippen was a rookie that joined the Bulls when Jordan was already a veteran. Jordan helped develop him into an all-star instead of pressuring the team to trade him for an established star… like Lebron did with Wiggins. Imagine how good Wiggins could’ve been if Lebron had taken him under his wing…

Wiggins was clearly overrated during his draft and the Cavs/LeBron made the right choice to get Klove instead.

Pippen being a Point Forward with Reggie being the main scorer would've been a good match together, let's not forget about the bulls also having Kukoc, Rodman, Kerr, Grant, BJ, Hodges, Lux

That team would've dominated the 90's 100%

Orlando Shaq with Pippen and semi fat Laker Shaq also would've destroyed the league together

Look… my point is simple. Wade won a chip as the main guy on his team. Nobody Jordan played with ever did that. Period.

I could care less about your hypotheticals, cherry picking random Jordan teammates from different eras, or hyping up scrubs like Kerr, Hodges and BJ… You can if, and, but all u want, but thems the fax. Jordan never got, or sought, the help Lebron did.

[guy1]

Listen I hate the LeBron Jordan debate and usually stay out of these threads but one thing always seems to be clear….

LeBron always has the most to lose in these situations but on the other hand, if he wins he doesn’t get the benefits of it. People are still bringing up 2004, an Olympics he barely even played in. If they would have lost this year, this would be a major stain on his legacy to a lot of people.

Now on the flip side, people will now say that this doesn’t mean much when comparing the two. But why not? If it would have been the end of the world if a 40 year old lost the Olympics, how come it’s not a major accomplishment if he won it and got MVP? It always seems that with some people, his failures don’t match what’s at stake for his successes

Pretty simple. If a no. 1 seed that was heavily favored to win the championship loses to an 8th seed in the first round, that team/best players on that team would take a huge hit to their legacy. If they won though, it doesn't do much of anything for them. Same logic applies here.

Oh okay, so being favored does matter? What about finals LeBron has lost that the opposite team was favored, or winning when his team wasn't favored? Sounds like he should have some boosts here and some ones that shouldn't hurt as much? Too simplistic of a look honestly.

Were Jordan's teams favored all of those years he won? Should that not be as impressive though or are you going to say "they were favored BECAUSE of Jordan"? Again, too many variables go into this for it to be that simple.

This seems like a lot of high risk no reward if we're simplifying it to your standards. Why even play

Whats so hard to understand? Do you give much credit to 1st seeds beating 8th seeds? The finals aren't usually that lopsided from a talent perspective as USA Olympics basketball is vs the rest of the world so its not the same argument. I know I used the word "favored" but I don't particularly care about who's technically favored or not cause there's always going to be someone thats favored over the other. But when its that lopsided as in 12 All-Stars from the US vs at most 1 all-star + maybe a couple more NBA players + the rest of the team that couldn't even make the NBA, yes I don't really think there's much positive boost to anyone's legacy for winning that. You can argue from now and going forward there should be some legacy implications because I get there's some differences with FIBA rules, there's a stronger chemistry/consistency aspect with international teams, and international game is in general more talented then before, but up until maybe 2028 or 2032, its still been pretty lopsided to the point that we'd all pick the US over the entire field - I can't remember that ever being the case with the NBA.

Here's another way of looking at it - if this entire US team literally got together in the NBA and played for the Lakers for example, do we really give much credit for them winning the championship? Lets say they beat the Nuggets in WCF and Knicks in the Finals, who are probably both better then Serbia and France. Tyrese Haliburton who was just the best player on a ECF team would be your 12th man No, no individual would get much credit because it would be such an extreme case of them doing what they were supposed to do.

[Karate Diop]

International fans lost the most by LeBron / Team USA winning again.

Team USA has gone back to jut throwing talented players out there and hoping for the best, and they still managed to win gold despite no real game plan or familiarity and horrendous coaching.

It'll come back to bite them again eventually as it has in the past, but what this means is that if Team USA doubles down and takes these JV competitions seriously they're still a cut above all the Internatty Teams.

[guy1]

Let me correct myself. Was a part of a great organization; again, this is why they won 55 games and took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games. I don’t think there’s anything that demonstrates how good that team was then how good they were without him.

When I say super team I’m not limiting that to teams that were formed through free agency, I’m talking about a teams talent level. Pippen was drafted (by a good organization that also hired Phil Jackson). Rodman never made an allstar game as a Bull but who cares. He was the best rebounder in the league and still one of the greatest defenders of all time as a Bull. His first year he finished 6 in DPOY behind five of the greatest defenders of all time and was still all defensive first team. He actually finished top 15 in MVP votes.

Kukoc was literally the sixth man of the year for Jordan’s first ring of his second three peat and finished second in his second year.

Then, again, that roster was supplemented with guys like Ron Harper, who went from a 20 ppg scorer to playing bench minutes and being a defender, and guys like Kerr who I think still has the best three point percentage in NBA history.

Sir, this is a super team.

You contributing the Bulls to being a superteam because of Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, and Steve Kerr lol? Kukoc won 6 man of the year in 95/96 when the Bulls went 72-10 which was Jordans first full season back from retirement. Toni was a very good role player for the second Bulls 3 peat indeed, but it was the perfect place for him playing with Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc was a secondary type ball handler and their 3rd option offensively. Which was grest cause Rodman gave them nothing offensively. Kerr was just a spot up 3 point shooter. Nothing more. Harper was there for his defense only. He was in his 30s when he went to Chicago, a career 28% 3 point shooter, with no playmaking skills. Not sure why Kerr or Harper especially make them a superteam lol? I can name several other superstar players who played with all star players, great 6th man of the year candidates, and guys like Kerr who can shoot 3s.

It's hilarious that when you talk about the Heatles, you do the braindead "durr hurr superteam!1" routine and literally are completely unable to use any context, like Wade declining hard during the later years or the lack of role players during year 1. But when discussing the Bulls, you're able to apply all this context to try and prove that it wasn't a superteam, lmao.

Imagine trying to downplay getting a 20 PPG scorer as your 4th option by saying "he was just there for defense!". It's ok to admit that second 3-peat was a superteam, bud.

I don't know how many times this needs to be regurgitated around here, but Ron Harper was not a 20 ppg scorer when he joined the Bulls. He joined the Bulls before the 1994-95 season and played ~60 games before Jordan came back and only averaged 7 ppg and only played 20 mpg. And they clearly could've used his scoring if thats what he was still capable of.

[guy1]

So having a team collapse without you is the mark of greatness ?. How exactly does the coach and GM at the MJ Bulls doing their jobs well with MJ’s cooperation detract from MJ ?.

It shows that he had ridiculously strong supporting casts/superteams, that's all. If a team absolutely crumbles when 1 player is removed, it shows how much said player was carrying to teams.

Do you agree that no player gets more credit for the success of other players/their development than MJ? I'm not talking about directly impacting them on court with an assist or anything like that. You just gave MJ a ton of credit for Pippen developing, and gave him most of the credit for Rodman being great during the 3-peat. It's so exaggerated and honestly ridiculous.

My point is a general one about team vs individual play in the team sport of basketball. I don’t see how a great team being built around MJ and him accepting coaching and a game plan from a coach detracts from him, that is all.

MJ indeed didn’t become successful until he accepted those things. I have actually said in another post LeBron probably has a greater sum of attributes as an individual player, but the heliocentric game plan, certainly the coaches and significantly the players on his teams since 2010 have been pretty much his choice, and hence the consequences of his choices are also on him imo. I don’t see how LeBron's teams collapsing without him exalts him over MJ who allowed a GM to do his job, and accepted coaching and a game plan from a coach who became great in the process, all of which would seem to me to have been good choices made by him.

I absolutely agree the 73 win Bulls were better than any LeBron team, and are likely the best team in NBA history. I just don’t see how that is a knock on MJ. I am a GSW fan who has the same opinion in regard to Curry and what may be the second best team ever, the 2017 GSW team.

Good post. The way the Bulls are sometimes talked about its almost like people believe Jordan wasn't the biggest reason for their dominance and he was just there for the ride.

[DB23]

Do you really think that Bosh was atleast as good as LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Howard, Melo, Dirk, Nash, Duncan, Howard and Garnett in 2010? Or better than Deron, Joe Johnson, Amare, Brandon Roy, Rondo, Gasol or Chris Paul? That's like what, 16 players who lead their team to playoffs and I think was better than Chris Bosh who lead the Raptors to lottery in 2010 and guess what, I didn't even include Wade so how did you come up with the conclusion that Chris Bosh was a top 10 player in 2010? I've seen you hoping for LeBron to sign with the Knicks in 2010 offseason, is that the root cause of this hate for LeBron? It's been 14 years Rhodey.. let it go. You are mocking LeBron's "weak Finals Record" but in order to reach 9 NBA Finals in 10 years, you need to win atleast 27 playoffs series and LeBron just did that while the Knicks won like 3 playoffs series in the last 24 years. I'm not mocking the Knicks, I'm excited for the squad they assemble this upcoming season and hope they go all the way as the Knicks fans deserve it but this unreasonable hate you have for LeBron is long overdue, let it go. He's also the only player in NBA history who won 3 NBA titles/Finals MVP for 3 different teams/coach/system so I'm not sure where you are getting this lack of leadership. Regarding Bron's "fear of the big shot", here's something for you.

Read on Twitter

You say 3 different titles with different teams like it is a good thing? When we know he hand picked specific rosters and situations. That’s not a plus in my book.

Hand picked the Heat. The other were not really basketball decisions. Cavs was about bringing a championship to Cleveland and Lakers was about living in LA.

Neither place was the best set up to win.

The went 33-49 Cavs before he arrived, Lakers were 35-47. They had young players and each team needed to make a trade for a all NBA big to be competitive.

There were other much better options available.

Context. He knew love and ad were being acquired. It’s not as you are presenting it.

[zimpy27]

You say 3 different titles with different teams like it is a good thing? When we know he hand picked specific rosters and situations. That’s not a plus in my book.

Hand picked the Heat. The other were not really basketball decisions. Cavs was about bringing a championship to Cleveland and Lakers was about living in LA.

Neither place was the best set up to win.

The went 33-49 Cavs before he arrived, Lakers were 35-47. They had young players and each team needed to make a trade for a all NBA big to be competitive.

There were other much better options available.

Context. He knew love and ad were being acquired. It’s not as you are presenting it.

How did he know that? Did he ring the Pelicans? Did he speak to the Wolves? Maybe he thought they'd try.

Besides, I stated that they need an All-NBA big.