Better duo to build around: LeBron/Curry or MJ/Jokic

[dolphinatik]

Mj jokic, but I'd also pick LeBron jokic over mj stef.

[web123888]

Jordan > LeBron, Jokic > Curry. Easy choice.

Agree with MJ - no way jokic passed Curry - i love jokic but curry - 73 wins, 2mvps and 4 rings and greatest shooter ever is hard to say anyone with absolutely better than him but mj and lbj

It's close for sure. Curry only has 1 FMVP and has no chance at winning any more. 73 wins was impressive but unfortunately marred by the greatest choke in NBA playoffs history.

Curry really hasn't proven he can do what Jokic did with a Nuggets caliber team. 3 MVP's in far less time also says a lot.

[dolphinatik]

Real question is mj jokic over LeBron jokic.
I'd go LeBron jokic. Not a knock on mj but bilingual a team you can find a guard to shoot and fit easier than finding a LeBron that can do that and everything else.

[scrabbarista]

Jordan > LeBron, Jokic > Curry. Easy choice.

I was going to post exactly this but add that there would be zero fit issues with MJ and Joker.

[guynumber45]

Jordan > LeBron, Jokic > Curry. Easy choice.

Agree with MJ - no way jokic passed Curry - i love jokic but curry - 73 wins, 2mvps and 4 rings and greatest shooter ever is hard to say anyone with absolutely better than him but mj and lbj

It's close for sure. Curry only has 1 FMVP and has no chance at winning any more. 73 wins was impressive but unfortunately marred by the greatest choke in NBA playoffs history.

Curry really hasn't proven he can do what Jokic did with a Nuggets caliber team. 3 MVP's in far less time also says a lot.

Did Curry not prove it in 2022?

I do agree with the overall point that Jokic can do more with less than Curry

[MacGill]

MJ/Jokic confidently here. Best big MJ would have ever played with who would have the ability to hit MJ, as he is amazing off the ball, while their games don't overlap whatsoever. MJ was a system guy, so he could adapt/adjust as he did throughout his career. LBJ isn't KD (GSW) for fitment and while Curry would certainly get his every superstar, AS player playing with him in prime had to scale back in abilities to work in the LeSystem. Even the match-ups clearly favour MJ/LBJ understanding that they will still all get theirs. Big/Guard best combo you can get!

[Lockdown504090]

Jordan > LeBron, Jokic > Curry. Easy choice.

I was going to post exactly this but add that there would be zero fit issues with MJ and Joker.

What differentiates jokic and curry for you all. How is what joker did over the last 3 any different from curry in 22 to you?

[Woodsanity]

Does MJ benefit from Joker's playmaking more than Curry benefits from Lebron's playmaking? I think answering that question gives you your answer.

I want to know your answer to the question

Curry and Lebron.

Jokic taking the ball out of MJ's hands doesn't do anything to help MJ's game and when MJ is working in the mid post, Jokic doesn't have much to do. We've never seen Jokic operate with another ball dominant player, but he doesn't seem like a guy that's going to take advantage of the attention MJ creates with off ball movement or cuts to the bucket.

Jamal Murray isn't ball dominant now?

Jokic is not a ball dominant player relative to other superstars especially ones that can pass. He is good off the ball.

Also MJ is better off the ball than you think as well....

Pippen often played point forward.

[Woodsanity]

MJ and Jokic. Steph is a tier below the other 3 players.

Steph anchored a dynasty and won multiple titles. Revolutioned the game with his shooting. So one of these guys is a tier below but it isn't Curry. Try again.

4 titles and being the bridesmaid for 3 of them isn't as great as you think it is.

[dhsilv2]

MJ and Jokic. Steph is a tier below the other 3 players.

Steph anchored a dynasty and won multiple titles. Revolutioned the game with his shooting. So one of these guys is a tier below but it isn't Curry. Try again.

4 titles and being the bridesmaid for 3 of them isn't as great as you think it is.

No clue what a bridesmaid means. But curry was the best player on 4 title teams. That's pretty good.

[scrabbarista]

Jordan > LeBron, Jokic > Curry. Easy choice.

I was going to post exactly this but add that there would be zero fit issues with MJ and Joker.

What differentiates jokic and curry for you all. How is what joker did over the last 3 any different from curry in 22 to you?

First question:

more impactful defender;

scoring stats are the same, but you feel you can just give Jokic the ball in any situation with little to no advantage and get two points, whereas you've seen Curry fall short too many times in that position. (This one guy who keeps saying "Murray is the closer," I havent bothered to remember his name, but every time I see that comment, it just tells me he hasn't watched much Denver Nuggets basketball over the last five-six years. I'd bet Jokic is the best closer in the game over that period.)

Second question: weird to compare three years to one year, but I have '23 Jokic as the second-highest peak ever, whereas, IIRC, I also have Jokic, not Curry, as the best player over the '22 season.

That's it. Both phenomenal players with 99-overall peaks, but I believe firmly that Jokic is better for his peak and - very soon, anyway - his career.

EDIT: Not getting injured is also a factor - to me, at least.

[og15]

Curry and Lebron.

Jokic taking the ball out of MJ's hands doesn't do anything to help MJ's game and when MJ is working in the mid post, Jokic doesn't have much to do. We've never seen Jokic operate with another ball dominant player, but he doesn't seem like a guy that's going to take advantage of the attention MJ creates with off ball movement or cuts to the bucket.

Pippen took the ball out of MJ's hands, MJ was actually very good off the ball.

Jokic plays off Murray very well, their two man game either with Murray as initiator or off DHO sets for example is very good. Jokic is a pretty constantly active player, he's always getting into space, rolling, cutting, screening after making a pass, etc.

I'm not sure I'm seeing these concerns.

I didn't say I had concerns. I'm sure they would be great together. But it's all very much conjecture in a way that it isn't with Lebron and Curry. Jordan and Jokic played in very different eras.

But the main problem is that the question is flawed. Better duo to build around but who are the three other guys they're playing with? With the small amount of info the hypothetical is providing, I'm taking Curry and Lebron. But a case can easily and obviously be made either way.

Any question like this the assumption is that they both get equally good and fitting role players around them, so the only differentiation factor is their production and impact. I don't think we're meant to overthink these kinds of questions.

Maybe I misunderstood, I interpreted your concerns as
1) Taking the ball out of MJ's hands doesn't help
2) We've never seen Jokic work with another ball dominant player, and he wouldn't take advantage of off ball action

So the reason I'm saying I don't see those concerns is that we already have the answer, MJ had his most success when he was moved off ball and played in a less ball dominant role, so it's an odd argument for us to say taking the ball out of his hands would limit his success.

Then Jokic we already see that he's pretty great off ball and using rolls, cuts, etc when Murray has the ball in his hands, so we again don't need to hypothesize as we've seen it.

Certainly if we had not seen those two do those things and do them excellently, you would be totally right that these more guessing, but we have.

[LaLover11]

Pippen took the ball out of MJ's hands, MJ was actually very good off the ball.

Jokic plays off Murray very well, their two man game either with Murray as initiator or off DHO sets for example is very good. Jokic is a pretty constantly active player, he's always getting into space, rolling, cutting, screening after making a pass, etc.

I'm not sure I'm seeing these concerns.

I didn't say I had concerns. I'm sure they would be great together. But it's all very much conjecture in a way that it isn't with Lebron and Curry. Jordan and Jokic played in very different eras.

But the main problem is that the question is flawed. Better duo to build around but who are the three other guys they're playing with? With the small amount of info the hypothetical is providing, I'm taking Curry and Lebron. But a case can easily and obviously be made either way.

Any question like this the assumption is that they both get equally good and fitting role players around them, so the only differentiation factor is their production and impact. I don't think we're meant to overthink these kinds of questions.




Maybe I misunderstood, I interpreted your concerns as
1) Taking the ball out of MJ's hands doesn't help
2) We've never seen Jokic work with another ball dominant player, and he wouldn't take advantage of off ball action

So the reason I'm saying I don't see those concerns is that we already have the answer, MJ had his most success when he was moved off ball and played in a less ball dominant role, so it's an odd argument for us to say taking the ball out of his hands would limit his success.

Then Jokic we already see that he's pretty great off ball and using rolls, cuts, etc when Murray has the ball in his hands, so we again don't need to hypothesize as we've seen it.

Certainly if we had not seen those two do those things and do them excellently, you would be totally right that these more guessing, but we have.

Curry, Klay, Durant, LeBron, AD
Murray, MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Jokic

Only teammates that they played with or each others teammates. Should be simple to create the other 3 teammates, I would say LeBron & Curry > MJ & Jokic

You can mix it however you want but the modern NBA league has more parity and talent

[bledredwine]

Jordan Jokic whoops them, IMO.
You basically have two of the best ceiling raisers in NBA history.

Stick Jordan on Curry.

We saw Lebron Curry on USA, albeit an older lebron, but Curry caught fire. Jordan used to catch fire regularly, and if you think Curry changed defensive schemes, just watch what prime Jordan did.

His entire career, he just needed a decent big to dish to. Next to an elite big, it would have been game over.

[LaLover11]

Jordan Jokic whoops them, IMO.
You basically have two of the best ceiling raisers in NBA history.

Stick Jordan on Curry.

We saw Lebron Curry on USA, albeit an older lebron, but Curry caught fire. Jordan used to catch fire regularly, and if you think Curry changed defensive schemes, just watch what prime Jordan did.

His entire career, he just needed a decent big to dish to. Next to an elite big, it would have been game over.

Jordan never had to play vs a zone defense
Curry's 3's > MJ's post up fadeaway 2's

LeBron and Jokic are Big Point Guards pretty much
Only difference is that James can switch on both MJ and Jokic and do a great job defending both.

Jokic would get his ankles broke by Curry with a switch
LeBron would also be way too fast in his prime attacking the paint vs Jokic or simply do a step back 3 and Jokic wouldn't be able to recover.

Obviously The joker has a size advantage but once again we get back to 3>2 points

[bledredwine]

Jordan Jokic whoops them, IMO.
You basically have two of the best ceiling raisers in NBA history.

Stick Jordan on Curry.

We saw Lebron Curry on USA, albeit an older lebron, but Curry caught fire. Jordan used to catch fire regularly, and if you think Curry changed defensive schemes, just watch what prime Jordan did.

His entire career, he just needed a decent big to dish to. Next to an elite big, it would have been game over.

Jordan never had to play vs a zone defense
Curry's 3's > MJ's post up fadeaway 2's

LeBron and Jokic are Big Point Guards pretty much
Only difference is that James can switch on both MJ and Jokic and do a great job defending both.

Jokic would get his ankles broke by Curry with a switch
LeBron would also be way too fast in his prime attacking the paint vs Jokic or simply do a step back 3 and Jokic wouldn't be able to recover.

Obviously The joker has a size advantage but once again we get back to 3>2 points

Biggest myth of all time.

There’s literally a clip of Jordan facing a Riley team and stating “Then he switched to zone, and then it became realll easy”.


You should YT and find some clips of Jordan facing zones. And are you genuinely telling me that you believe Jordan would struggle with more space, no handchecking and a three second violation keeping bigs from camping near the rim?

Come on now.

Lebron’s never had no three sec or faced 90s rules, but he sure struggled against the tall, defensive Mavs squad since he couldn’t drive at will.

[LaLover11]

Jordan Jokic whoops them, IMO.
You basically have two of the best ceiling raisers in NBA history.

Stick Jordan on Curry.

We saw Lebron Curry on USA, albeit an older lebron, but Curry caught fire. Jordan used to catch fire regularly, and if you think Curry changed defensive schemes, just watch what prime Jordan did.

His entire career, he just needed a decent big to dish to. Next to an elite big, it would have been game over.

Jordan never had to play vs a zone defense
Curry's 3's > MJ's post up fadeaway 2's

LeBron and Jokic are Big Point Guards pretty much
Only difference is that James can switch on both MJ and Jokic and do a great job defending both.

Jokic would get his ankles broke by Curry with a switch
LeBron would also be way too fast in his prime attacking the paint vs Jokic or simply do a step back 3 and Jokic wouldn't be able to recover.

Obviously The joker has a size advantage but once again we get back to 3>2 points

Biggest myth of all time.

There’s literally a clip of Jordan facing a Riley team and stating “Then he switched to zone, and then it became realll easy”.


You should YT and find some clips of Jordan facing zones. And are you genuinely telling me that you believe Jordan would struggle with more space, no handchecking and a three second violation keeping bigs from camping near the rim?

Come on now.

Lebron’s never had no three sec or faced 90s rules, but he sure struggled against the tall, defensive Mavs squad since he couldn’t drive at will.

Whatever you say bro lol

LeBron & Curry are a match made in basketball heaven
MJ & Jokic is great but not the best combo

Double MJ and leave Jokic open at the 3
Double Jokic and let MJ take the midrange & 3

You can live with that since if you do the same

Double Curry and it's a easy dunk/layup/3 for Bron
Double LeBron and Curry is hitting 12 3's

In my opinion this is a easy win for Bron & Curry

[cupcakesnake]

Double MJ and leave Jokic open at the 3
Double Jokic and let MJ take the midrange & 3

Lol ok so give up a ridiculously good shot every time? That's your strategy?

[LaLover11]

Double MJ and leave Jokic open at the 3
Double Jokic and let MJ take the midrange & 3

Lol ok so give up a ridiculously good shot every time? That's your strategy?

It's a myth Jokic a knock down 3pt shooter
MJ was a below average 3pt shooter

I would simply let Jokic try to win the game hitting the open 3 all night long. Go Jokic please shoot it!

You don't seem to understand that both Curry and LeBron are simply a better overall combo.

Best overall player & Best shooter of all time

[cupcakesnake]

Double MJ and leave Jokic open at the 3
Double Jokic and let MJ take the midrange & 3

Lol ok so give up a ridiculously good shot every time? That's your strategy?

It's a myth Jokic a knock down 3pt shooter
MJ was a below average 3pt shooter

I would simply let Jokic try to win the game hitting the open 3 all night long. Go Jokic please shoot it!

You don't seem to understand that both Curry and LeBron are simply a better overall combo.

Best overall player & Best shooter of all time

I actually have no opinion on which combo is better. We're not playing 2-on-2, it's a question of "better duo to build around".

These are arguably the 4 best offensive players ever.

Lebron is a below average shooter too. He's a worse overall shooter than MJ relative to era. Jokic is a better 3-point shooter than Lebron.

Also in your examples you act like you're taking the best attributes of young Lebron and old Lebron. Young Lebron was an even worse shooter and couldn't guard centers. Old Lebron is better at those things but can't break down defenses anymore.

"You don't seem to understand". Skip the condescension please. It's irritating.