Does CP3 have any argument as being better than Durant all time?

[dhsilv2]

The main argument comes down to this: when kd has the time of possession that cp did, he didn’t look any better than cp. kd is the best ever at being destructive without the ball, but you kinda need a guy to have it more to win a title.

KD is not better off ball than Curry...or MJ or Miller.

I meant with frontcourt players

Is he a front court player?

[Lalouie]

I was thinking about this, depending on how you view Durant, is it possible that CP3 is ranked higher all time?

i believe not. cp3 is higher as a pg than kd as an sf. cp3 has turned around teams more than kd

but cp has no ring and kd supporters will always fall back to his big year @gsw, and there's no argument to counter it.
i think kd's BIG fails won't dissuade anyone because ultimately his scoring is impeccable and elite, and in the panoply of nba greats the point guard (except magic) has no sway against the big boys.

[FrobeBryant]

I mean, he doesn't to these eyes, but I have KD as borderline top 10 if not in the top 10. CP3 is more like 15ish; above guys like Kobe and Barkley, but maybe not quite the same impact as KD.

No quit in your game I don't think there's a bigger Kobe fan than you

[kodo]

At the end of the day would I rank CP3 over Durant, No.
But if the actual question is "does he have any argument?" Yes

- At his peak CP3 had more all-around impact than KD
- prime CP3 was a scorer but also a league leading assist generator, and also a defensive player
- At his peak CP3 got all-NBA votes, MVP votes, All-Defense votes, and DPOY votes
- KD has been one of the best scoring machines we've ever seen, but not historically great in any other area such as assists/defense
- But ultimately KD has championships, Finals MVPs, and an MVP

I actually think CP3 is probably more talented non-physically, but he was not born into a superstar NBA body being under 6' and never was able to maneuver himself onto a championship roster. In alternate universe he could have been better than KD, but not this one.

[TaylorTRoom]

I mean, he doesn't to these eyes, but I have KD as borderline top 10 if not in the top 10. CP3 is more like 15ish; above guys like Kobe and Barkley, but maybe not quite the same impact as KD.

CP3 is better than Kobe and Barkley? CP3 has played with everyone but LeBron and still has no CHIP.

Rings are about context. CP3 had less favourable context than some others is all. If Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 he likely has a ring for example.

I’m a huge Durant fan, but I agree with this. In the 2018 WCF game 7, when Houston went cold from 3PA, Paul would have ignored dantonio and stopped shooting them, and got the game under control again.

[iggymcfrack]

At the moment on RealGM TOP100 2023

20th Paul
22th Durant

so there are planty of arguments Paul>Durant

Curious to hear a couple of these arguments since there are plenty to choose from.


I’m one of KDs biggest critics, but really I can’t think of any reason why CP3 could be ahead of KD.

Pretty much any impact stats prefer CP3. I remember at one point an RAPM I really like had CP3 ahead of KD 10 years ago. Career age-adjusted RAPM is one of my favorite stats currently. It has Chris Paul as the 3rd best player since 1997 and KD as the 12th. If you wanna look at raw numbers, in the regular season, Chris Paul’s teams have played to a better point differential when he’s on the floor than KD’s teams have when he’s on the floor even though KD’s teams have been 3.4 points better when said players are on the bench. In the playoffs Chris Paul has an on/off of +6.2 compared to +2.4 for KD.

It makes sense too since CP3 can do so much more on a basketball court than KD. While Durant is mostly a one-dimensional scorer, CP3 is an all-time passer, an extremely efficient scorer, a coach on the floor, and one of the best defensive point guards of all-time. KD gets his own and he’s very, very good at that, but he doesn’t so much to lift the players around him. That’s why when he played in Golden State, he couldn’t come close to approaching the impact of Steph who got the whole offense going rather than just himself.

[iggymcfrack]

I was thinking about this, depending on how you view Durant, is it possible that CP3 is ranked higher all time?

i believe not. cp3 is higher as a pg than kd as an sf. cp3 has turned around teams more than kd

but cp has no ring and kd supporters will always fall back to his big year @gsw, and there's no argument to counter it.
i think kd's BIG fails won't dissuade anyone because ultimately his scoring is impeccable and elite, and in the panoply of nba greats the point guard (except magic) has no sway against the big boys.

There actually is an argument to counter it which is that during the years he played for Golden State, the Warriors had a better record with Steph and no KD than they did when they both played together, and during the championship years they had a point differential of +14.7 with Steph and no KD compared to +2.7 with KD and no Steph. Durant was largely superfluous to their success. Like he helped in that he was better at hitting open 3s than Harrison Barnes, but he wasn’t a key piece in the way that Steph Curry was or arguably even Draymond Green. Chris Paul was more impactful on a Finals team at age 35 than KD ever was in Golden State.

[One_and_Done]

CP3 is better than Kobe and Barkley? CP3 has played with everyone but LeBron and still has no CHIP.

Rings are about context. CP3 had less favourable context than some others is all. If Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 he likely has a ring for example.

Well yeah.. but the context here is Kobe was better than CP3, so he was able to win 5 of them as a 1A or 1B guy, depends how you view it.

Kobe's team was able to win 5, because three were as Shaq's sidekick and the other 2 were on the most stacked team in the league at the time. That's the context.

Here's some more context. Kobe was on the team who was considered title favourites at least 10 times, but won only 5. A 50% grade, which is bad. From 00-07 in games without Shaq he led the Lakers to a pedestrian 135-137 record.

Chris Paul had some talented teams, but he never had the most talented team like Kobe did so many times. CP3 was a guy who made his teams punch above their weight, he wasn't a front runner or coat tail rider. If Paul had played on the same teams as Kobe he'd have more than 5 titles.

[One_and_Done]

Are you Kobe and Barkley joint account?

LMFAOOO.. CP3 over Kobe.. RealGM now I've seen it all

There's a large amount of people who like to remove achievements like MVPs, All NBA/Def teams, Championships, Finals MVPs, etc from the equation, since awards are subjective and voted on by the media, and Champs/Finals MVPs are highly dependent on your teammates. I disagree whole-heartedly, but there is a logic behind it.

Personally I don't like CP's case because he played with a lot of talent. If you're a MVP level player, like CP3's fans say he is, his Clippers supporting cast should have been enough.

I addressed most of this in my last post above this one, but let's not act like CP3 is some undecorated nobody. Kobe has 1 MVP, and it should have gone to CP3 anyway (or KG/Lebron). Kobe's MVP was widely panned as a lifetime achievement award.

[Ssj16]

Reading more through this thread, I can't believe this is an argument. Advanced stats should be used with raw stats and the eye test.

KD is a 6'11 unstoppable offensive force who could play amazing d in his prime. There is almost no player like KD. He's shown so many clutch moments in his life and has won on the biggest stage albeit with a strong team.

CP3 is 6 foot tall and there have been other true point guards that are a facsimile of CP3. His teams tend to flame out in the playoffs and he can't get done as the number 1 guy.

You swap out CP3 for Kobe and KD, you win less championships.

People can get all cute about CP3 and his advance stats but if you're starting a team from scratch, the resounding majority of people would pick KD over CP3 and rightfully so. I'm personally taking John Stockon, Isiah Thomas and maybe even Steve Nash before I get to the likes of CP3.

[One_and_Done]

Reading more through this thread, I can't believe this is an argument. Advanced stats should be used with raw stats and the eye test.

KD is a 6'11 unstoppable offensive force who could play amazing d in his prime. There is almost no player like KD. He's shown so many clutch moments in his life and has won on the biggest stage albeit with a strong team.

CP3 is 6 foot tall and there have been other true point guards that are a facsimile of CP3. His teams tend to flame out in the playoffs and he can't get done as the number 1 guy.

You swap out CP3 for Kobe and KD, you win less championships.

People can get all cute about CP3 and his advance stats but if you're starting a team from scratch, the resounding majority of people would pick KD over CP3 and rightfully so. I'm personally taking John Stockon, Isiah Thomas and maybe even Steve Nash before I get to the likes of CP3.

That must be why Kobe led his teams to a 135-137 record from 00-07 in games without Shaq, because he's more of a winner.

[Archx]

Rings are about context. CP3 had less favourable context than some others is all. If Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 he likely has a ring for example.

Well yeah.. but the context here is Kobe was better than CP3, so he was able to win 5 of them as a 1A or 1B guy, depends how you view it.

Kobe's team was able to win 5, because three were as Shaq's sidekick and the other 2 were on the most stacked team in the league at the time. That's the context.

Here's some more context. Kobe was on the team who was considered title favourites at least 10 times, but won only 5. A 50% grade, which is bad. From 00-07 in games without Shaq he led the Lakers to a pedestrian 135-137 record.

Chris Paul had some talented teams, but he never had the most talented team like Kobe did so many times. CP3 was a guy who made his teams punch above their weight, he wasn't a front runner or coat tail rider. If Paul had played on the same teams as Kobe he'd have more than 5 titles.

Mate..Who is a clear favourite is often more or less subjective anyway. Kobe won 5 titles in 10 years as 1A or 1B (that's seriously a remarkable achievement), i don't care about who was projected to be the favourite, etc... Who thought Mavs would be the favourite to get to the finals in the west? No one. But they did get there, anything can happen.
Just like Lakers got to the finals with Kobe, who more often than not, had to go through a very tough Western conference as well.

CP3 led teams didn't win any rings, even when he started chasing and joined other strong teams. I can't think of absolutely any reason to put CP3 ahead of Kobe, it's such a ridiculous debate to have that at first i thought you were trolling.

[Ssj16]

Reading more through this thread, I can't believe this is an argument. Advanced stats should be used with raw stats and the eye test.

KD is a 6'11 unstoppable offensive force who could play amazing d in his prime. There is almost no player like KD. He's shown so many clutch moments in his life and has won on the biggest stage albeit with a strong team.

CP3 is 6 foot tall and there have been other true point guards that are a facsimile of CP3. His teams tend to flame out in the playoffs and he can't get done as the number 1 guy.

You swap out CP3 for Kobe and KD, you win less championships.

People can get all cute about CP3 and his advance stats but if you're starting a team from scratch, the resounding majority of people would pick KD over CP3 and rightfully so. I'm personally taking John Stockon, Isiah Thomas and maybe even Steve Nash before I get to the likes of CP3.

That must be why Kobe led his teams to a 135-137 record from 00-07 in games without Shaq, because he's more of a winner.

The dude was playing with G-leaguers for a couple of years after Shaq was traded in the deep west and was still able to make the playoffs. At any rate, I don't see CP3 taking any of those teams further than Kobe did. Which is evident by himself flaming out in the playoffs while on the Clippers/Houston while on talented teams. At the end of the day regardless of how you feel about Kobe or whatever cute advanced stats you want to throw out, in his prime Kobe could win you a chip as the man and so could Durant.

[NZB2323]

I mean, he doesn't to these eyes, but I have KD as borderline top 10 if not in the top 10. CP3 is more like 15ish; above guys like Kobe and Barkley, but maybe not quite the same impact as KD.

CP3 is better than Kobe and Barkley? CP3 has played with everyone but LeBron and still has no CHIP.

Rings are about context. CP3 had less favourable context than some others is all. If Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 he likely has a ring for example.

Isn’t that the story of CP3’s career though? If only he didn’t get hurt in the playoffs…

And I know KD joined a 73 win team, but if his foot isn’t on the line in 2021, or if the Thunder kept Harden he could have more rings. And actually if KD picked the Celtics he may have more than 2 rings.

[Ssj16]

Well yeah.. but the context here is Kobe was better than CP3, so he was able to win 5 of them as a 1A or 1B guy, depends how you view it.

Kobe's team was able to win 5, because three were as Shaq's sidekick and the other 2 were on the most stacked team in the league at the time. That's the context.

Here's some more context. Kobe was on the team who was considered title favourites at least 10 times, but won only 5. A 50% grade, which is bad. From 00-07 in games without Shaq he led the Lakers to a pedestrian 135-137 record.

Chris Paul had some talented teams, but he never had the most talented team like Kobe did so many times. CP3 was a guy who made his teams punch above their weight, he wasn't a front runner or coat tail rider. If Paul had played on the same teams as Kobe he'd have more than 5 titles.

Mate..Who is a clear favourite is often more or less subjective anyway. Kobe won 5 titles in 10 years as 1A or 1B (that's seriously a remarkable achievement), i don't care about who was projected to be the favourite, etc... Who thought Mavs would be the favourite to get to the finals in the west? No one. But they did get there, anything can happen.
Just like Lakers got to the finals with Kobe, who more often than not, had to go through a very tough Western conference as well.

CP3 led teams didn't win any rings, even when he started chasing and joined other strong teams. I can't think of absolutely any reason to put CP3 ahead of Kobe, it's such a ridiculous debate to have that at first i thought you were trolling.

He's not trolling, he's just playing his part to be the biggest Kobe hater on the board. He will always invoke his name when the thread has nothing to about him. Kinda like that other guy will bring up Tatum for no reason.

[One_and_Done]

Well yeah.. but the context here is Kobe was better than CP3, so he was able to win 5 of them as a 1A or 1B guy, depends how you view it.

Kobe's team was able to win 5, because three were as Shaq's sidekick and the other 2 were on the most stacked team in the league at the time. That's the context.

Here's some more context. Kobe was on the team who was considered title favourites at least 10 times, but won only 5. A 50% grade, which is bad. From 00-07 in games without Shaq he led the Lakers to a pedestrian 135-137 record.

Chris Paul had some talented teams, but he never had the most talented team like Kobe did so many times. CP3 was a guy who made his teams punch above their weight, he wasn't a front runner or coat tail rider. If Paul had played on the same teams as Kobe he'd have more than 5 titles.

Mate..Who is a clear favourite is often more or less subjective anyway. Kobe won 5 titles in 10 years as 1A or 1B (that's seriously a remarkable achievement), i don't care about who was projected to be the favourite, etc... Who thought Mavs would be the favourite to get to the finals in the west? No one. But they did get there, anything can happen.
Just like Lakers got to the finals with Kobe, who more often than not, had to go through a very tough Western conference as well.

CP3 led teams didn't win any rings, even when he started chasing and joined other strong teams. I can't think of absolutely any reason to put CP3 ahead of Kobe, it's such a ridiculous debate to have that at first i thought you were trolling.

We can discuss who should have been favourites in hindsight, but the answer is mostly the same. The point is Kobe's context was much better than CP3s. Kobe had the best support cast/best title odds 10+ times. Paul never had that. Not once. Then we can see many bad/mediocre teams Paul carried, in contrast to Kobe's 135-137 record without Shaq from 00-07. CP3 was the better floor raiser and ceiling lifter. Looking at that context is important because it helps is work out whose impact was actually greater, and who was merely more famous.

[One_and_Done]

CP3 is better than Kobe and Barkley? CP3 has played with everyone but LeBron and still has no CHIP.

Rings are about context. CP3 had less favourable context than some others is all. If Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 he likely has a ring for example.

Isn’t that the story of CP3’s career though? If only he didn’t get hurt in the playoffs…

And I know KD joined a 73 win team, but if his foot isn’t on the line in 2021, or if the Thunder kept Harden he could have more rings. And actually if KD picked the Celtics he may have more than 2 rings.

Well I already said I'm taking KD.

[NZB2323]

Rings are about context. CP3 had less favourable context than some others is all. If Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 he likely has a ring for example.

Well yeah.. but the context here is Kobe was better than CP3, so he was able to win 5 of them as a 1A or 1B guy, depends how you view it.

Kobe's team was able to win 5, because three were as Shaq's sidekick and the other 2 were on the most stacked team in the league at the time. That's the context.

Here's some more context. Kobe was on the team who was considered title favourites at least 10 times, but won only 5. A 50% grade, which is bad. From 00-07 in games without Shaq he led the Lakers to a pedestrian 135-137 record.

Chris Paul had some talented teams, but he never had the most talented team like Kobe did so many times. CP3 was a guy who made his teams punch above their weight, he wasn't a front runner or coat tail rider. If Paul had played on the same teams as Kobe he'd have more than 5 titles.

Was the 2010 Lakers the most stacked team?

The Celtics had Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, KG, Perkins, Rasheed, and Tony Allen.

The Suns had Nash, Amare, Richardson, Robin Lopez, Channing Frye.

The Spurs had Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, George Hill, Richard Jefferson.

The Mavs had Dirk, Kidd, Caron Butler, Jet Terry, Shawn Marion, and Erick Dampier.

[One_and_Done]

Well yeah.. but the context here is Kobe was better than CP3, so he was able to win 5 of them as a 1A or 1B guy, depends how you view it.

Kobe's team was able to win 5, because three were as Shaq's sidekick and the other 2 were on the most stacked team in the league at the time. That's the context.

Here's some more context. Kobe was on the team who was considered title favourites at least 10 times, but won only 5. A 50% grade, which is bad. From 00-07 in games without Shaq he led the Lakers to a pedestrian 135-137 record.

Chris Paul had some talented teams, but he never had the most talented team like Kobe did so many times. CP3 was a guy who made his teams punch above their weight, he wasn't a front runner or coat tail rider. If Paul had played on the same teams as Kobe he'd have more than 5 titles.

Was the 2010 Lakers the most stacked team?

The Celtics had Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, KG, Perkins, Rasheed, and Tony Allen.

The Suns had Nash, Amare, Richardson, Robin Lopez, Channing Frye.

The Spurs had Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, George Hill, Richard Jefferson.

The Mavs had Dirk, Kidd, Caron Butler, Jet Terry, Shawn Marion, and Erick Dampier.

It was after KG got hurt in 09. He was never quite the same again, and Perk was also hurt if I recall. That injury marked the end of KGs prime. Duncan's prime was 98-07. After that injuries gradually slowed him. He was well past his prime in 2010, and it showed. He was probably better in 12-14 than 2010, which is when he slimmed down so his injured legs weren't carrying so much weight. Dirk had a nice team, but not as good as the Lakers. The Suns had substantially downgraded. No more Marion, Amare was not as good post micro-fracture, and guys like Frye, Richardson and Lopez, while capable guys, were inferior to what Kobe had.

[Lalouie]

I was thinking about this, depending on how you view Durant, is it possible that CP3 is ranked higher all time?

i believe not. cp3 is higher as a pg than kd as an sf. cp3 has turned around teams more than kd

but cp has no ring and kd supporters will always fall back to his big year @gsw, and there's no argument to counter it.
i think kd's BIG fails won't dissuade anyone because ultimately his scoring is impeccable and elite, and in the panoply of nba greats the point guard (except magic) has no sway against the big boys.

There actually is an argument to counter it which is that during the years he played for Golden State, the Warriors had a better record with Steph and no KD than they did when they both played together, and during the championship years they had a point differential of +14.7 with Steph and no KD compared to +2.7 with KD and no Steph. Durant was largely superfluous to their success. Like he helped in that he was better at hitting open 3s than Harrison Barnes, but he wasn’t a key piece in the way that Steph Curry was or arguably even Draymond Green. Chris Paul was more impactful on a Finals team at age 35 than KD ever was in Golden State.

yes, in fact that is the point i make to all the pro kd people, AND the media who doesn't even mention this disparity.
i am well aware of the IMPACT of the two, as i have often made a jeter/arod likening.

but it think because we're talking about cp3 and not steph, the kd/gsw gains a bit of momentum