Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA

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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#21 » by MrDollarBills » Tue Aug 13, 2024 8:38 pm

Wingy wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:I was one of those people. But if these claims are proven true in court, I wouldn't trust her anywhere near any team, nevermind the Olympics


Ha, yeah I remembered, and it made total sense from a basketball standpoint.

This feels like it’s headed toward disappointment though. One of the bright coaching stars in the WNBA, and one many prob still had hopes might someday break down barriers on the men’s side. I mean, we’ll see, but that’s the gut feeling I get.


Yeah I'm already disappointed because I don't think Dearica has any reason to lie and there was a news piece published last year that alluded to this.

I just hope this leads to stringent changes. Mothers should be protected at all costs. That's a hard red line that we all agree upon that should never be crossed.

They're not paying these women enough for this horsesh*t. No wonder Gabby Williams doesn't seem to want anything to do with the league
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#22 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:28 pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/XHZYjTO2h7

Video of Commish Cathy addressing the situation

It sounds like the league is ready to throw The Aces under the bus. They should be.

Becky is done.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#23 » by NoStatsGuy » Thu Aug 15, 2024 1:53 pm

the wnba needs to have strict policies for these situations. they need to be an example of how to treat women. The league and every single franchise in the league. i expected better... especially hammond looks realy bad here. she kinda won me over at her hof speech not too long ago.

proofs once again how fake people are in front of a camera.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#24 » by cupcakesnake » Thu Aug 15, 2024 2:03 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/XHZYjTO2h7

Video of Commish Cathy addressing the situation

It sounds like the league is ready to throw The Aces under the bus. They should be.

Becky is done.


I didn't get that from the video. She mostly keeps things positive, talking about great a person Hamby is, as well as talking about how the league supports mothers.

It will be interesting to see if further measures are taken. The league already did their own investigation took action in the form of a 2-game suspension and the loss of a draft pick. Is it possible the lawsuit brings new information into the light in a way that creates public pressure to get rid of Becky Hammon? I'd be surprised. The Aces have also consistently stood by her.

Love the Aces on court, but the organization as a whole doesn't seem as loveable.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#25 » by cupcakesnake » Thu Aug 15, 2024 2:12 pm

It's also ironic that this "basketball decision" didn't entirely work out. Candace Parker lasted half a season. It was a glorious half of a season, to be sure, but didn't amount to anything of value for them. Imagine if they still had Dearica Hamby, who has blossomed into an all-WNBA level force.

To be fair, this probably means no Alysha Clark or Cayla George. Clark is 36-yo though. Dearica is 6 years young, 4 inches taller, and way better. Despite Hammon explaining they signed 3 players for 1, I don't think it's worked out in the Aces favor at all.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#26 » by theforumblue » Thu Aug 15, 2024 6:10 pm

Did Hamby get penalized also for agreeing to the under the table offerings?
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#27 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Aug 15, 2024 7:20 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/wnba/s/XHZYjTO2h7

Video of Commish Cathy addressing the situation

It sounds like the league is ready to throw The Aces under the bus. They should be.

Becky is done.


I didn't get that from the video. She mostly keeps things positive, talking about great a person Hamby is, as well as talking about how the league supports mothers.

It will be interesting to see if further measures are taken. The league already did their own investigation took action in the form of a 2-game suspension and the loss of a draft pick. Is it possible the lawsuit brings new information into the light in a way that creates public pressure to get rid of Becky Hammon? I'd be surprised. The Aces have also consistently stood by her.

Love the Aces on court, but the organization as a whole doesn't seem as loveable.


I took Cathy being supportive of Hamby as a sign that the league isn't going to push back and will look to settle to avoid this becoming any bigger, but that's just conjecture.

If I had to choose between the health and public perception of the league and Becky Hammon, I throw her under the bus without hesitation, as much as it pains me to say that. What she did not only hurt Hamby, but it hurts the league. The fact that now the league is now scrambling to show that they support the mothers of the W is horrible optics.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#28 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Aug 15, 2024 7:22 pm

theforumblue wrote:Did Hamby get penalized also for agreeing to the under the table offerings?


That would fall at the feet of the Aces who have been circumventing the cap I think.

But honestly? The fact that a team has to do this speaks to a larger problem. These players need more compensation, especially now post inflation. 65k is not enough money, I'm sorry. Salaries need to be at least 100k minimum and up
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#29 » by theforumblue » Thu Aug 15, 2024 9:13 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
theforumblue wrote:Did Hamby get penalized also for agreeing to the under the table offerings?


That would fall at the feet of the Aces who have been circumventing the cap I think.

But honestly? The fact that a team has to do this speaks to a larger problem. These players need more compensation, especially now post inflation. 65k is not enough money, I'm sorry. Salaries need to be at least 100k minimum and up


she's saying she knowingly signed with Aces with those 'under the table' deals in place. yeah the team should get hit hard but she shouldn't get away with it either.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#30 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Aug 15, 2024 10:40 pm

theforumblue wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
theforumblue wrote:Did Hamby get penalized also for agreeing to the under the table offerings?


That would fall at the feet of the Aces who have been circumventing the cap I think.

But honestly? The fact that a team has to do this speaks to a larger problem. These players need more compensation, especially now post inflation. 65k is not enough money, I'm sorry. Salaries need to be at least 100k minimum and up


she's saying she knowingly signed with Aces with those 'under the table' deals in place. yeah the team should get hit hard but she shouldn't get away with it either.


Players aren't going to be punished for cap circumventing, that's the franchise(owner/front office)'s fault.

When the Timberwolves got caught for cap circumventing many years ago with Joe Smith, the Wolves got fined 3.5m, lost multiple 1sts, and their owner and GM got banned for a year.

My question to you is though, what does the Aces' cap circumvention have to do with the merit of this lawsuit? This is about a team abusing and retaliating against a player for getting pregnant.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#31 » by ellobo » Thu Aug 15, 2024 11:11 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
theforumblue wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
That would fall at the feet of the Aces who have been circumventing the cap I think.

But honestly? The fact that a team has to do this speaks to a larger problem. These players need more compensation, especially now post inflation. 65k is not enough money, I'm sorry. Salaries need to be at least 100k minimum and up


she's saying she knowingly signed with Aces with those 'under the table' deals in place. yeah the team should get hit hard but she shouldn't get away with it either.


Players aren't going to be punished for cap circumventing, that's the franchise(owner/front office)'s fault.

When the Timberwolves got caught for cap circumventing many years ago with Joe Smith, the Wolves got fined 3.5m, lost multiple 1sts, and their owner and GM got banned for a year.

My question to you is though, what does the Aces' cap circumvention have to do with the merit of this lawsuit? This is about a team abusing and retaliating against a player for getting pregnant.


It doesn't directly have to do with the merits of the lawsuit. AFAIK, the cap circumvention was already investigated by the league, the Aces were already penalized (loss of 2025 1st round draft pick and Becky Hammon was suspended two games), and the league has no direct involvement in the lawsuit.

However, it does potentially relate in a few ways that I can think of. First, it shows that the Aces were willing to break rules in how they treat players, whether impermissible benefits or mistreatment. That kind of pattern might be considered in the disposition of the lawsuit. Second, if there is new information about cap circumvention or other CBA violations in the lawsuit or that comes to light as a result of the lawsuit, the league could act on it and impose additional penalties. Third, the Aces are currently being investigated for the LVCVA "sponsorship" deal, so if anything new comes out as a result of the lawsuit that relates to a pattern of cap circumvention, it could affect the disposition of the current investigation by the league.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#32 » by MrDollarBills » Fri Aug 16, 2024 12:08 am

ellobo wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
theforumblue wrote:
she's saying she knowingly signed with Aces with those 'under the table' deals in place. yeah the team should get hit hard but she shouldn't get away with it either.


Players aren't going to be punished for cap circumventing, that's the franchise(owner/front office)'s fault.

When the Timberwolves got caught for cap circumventing many years ago with Joe Smith, the Wolves got fined 3.5m, lost multiple 1sts, and their owner and GM got banned for a year.

My question to you is though, what does the Aces' cap circumvention have to do with the merit of this lawsuit? This is about a team abusing and retaliating against a player for getting pregnant.


It doesn't directly have to do with the merits of the lawsuit. AFAIK, the cap circumvention was already investigated by the league, the Aces were already penalized (loss of 2025 1st round draft pick and Becky Hammon was suspended two games), and the league has no direct involvement in the lawsuit.

However, it does potentially relate in a few ways that I can think of. First, it shows that the Aces were willing to break rules in how they treat players, whether impermissible benefits or mistreatment. That kind of pattern might be considered in the disposition of the lawsuit. Second, if there is new information about cap circumvention or other CBA violations in the lawsuit or that comes to light as a result of the lawsuit, the league could act on it and impose additional penalties. Third, the Aces are currently being investigated for the LVCVA "sponsorship" deal, so if anything new comes out as a result of the lawsuit that relates to a pattern of cap circumvention, it could affect the disposition of the current investigation by the league.


You painted the picture for me beautifully, I wasn't looking at it like that. You're right. It's a pattern of behavior that is pretty, for lack of a better word, shady.

One thing though, it was reported that the league was named as a defendant in the lawsuit

https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/40839309/sparks-dearica-hamby-sues-wnba-aces-alleging-discrimination

Is that no longer the case?
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#33 » by ellobo » Fri Aug 16, 2024 12:28 am

MrDollarBills wrote:
ellobo wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Players aren't going to be punished for cap circumventing, that's the franchise(owner/front office)'s fault.

When the Timberwolves got caught for cap circumventing many years ago with Joe Smith, the Wolves got fined 3.5m, lost multiple 1sts, and their owner and GM got banned for a year.

My question to you is though, what does the Aces' cap circumvention have to do with the merit of this lawsuit? This is about a team abusing and retaliating against a player for getting pregnant.


It doesn't directly have to do with the merits of the lawsuit. AFAIK, the cap circumvention was already investigated by the league, the Aces were already penalized (loss of 2025 1st round draft pick and Becky Hammon was suspended two games), and the league has no direct involvement in the lawsuit.

However, it does potentially relate in a few ways that I can think of. First, it shows that the Aces were willing to break rules in how they treat players, whether impermissible benefits or mistreatment. That kind of pattern might be considered in the disposition of the lawsuit. Second, if there is new information about cap circumvention or other CBA violations in the lawsuit or that comes to light as a result of the lawsuit, the league could act on it and impose additional penalties. Third, the Aces are currently being investigated for the LVCVA "sponsorship" deal, so if anything new comes out as a result of the lawsuit that relates to a pattern of cap circumvention, it could affect the disposition of the current investigation by the league.


You painted the picture for me beautifully, I wasn't looking at it like that. You're right. It's a pattern of behavior that is pretty, for lack of a better word, shady.

One thing though, it was reported that the league was named as a defendant in the lawsuit

https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/40839309/sparks-dearica-hamby-sues-wnba-aces-alleging-discrimination

Is that no longer the case?


No, apparently I was just mistaken.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#34 » by theforumblue » Fri Aug 16, 2024 1:35 am

MrDollarBills wrote:
theforumblue wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
That would fall at the feet of the Aces who have been circumventing the cap I think.

But honestly? The fact that a team has to do this speaks to a larger problem. These players need more compensation, especially now post inflation. 65k is not enough money, I'm sorry. Salaries need to be at least 100k minimum and up


she's saying she knowingly signed with Aces with those 'under the table' deals in place. yeah the team should get hit hard but she shouldn't get away with it either.


Players aren't going to be punished for cap circumventing, that's the franchise(owner/front office)'s fault.

When the Timberwolves got caught for cap circumventing many years ago with Joe Smith, the Wolves got fined 3.5m, lost multiple 1sts, and their owner and GM got banned for a year.

My question to you is though, what does the Aces' cap circumvention have to do with the merit of this lawsuit? This is about a team abusing and retaliating against a player for getting pregnant.


for 'under the table' stuff i don't see either side as innocent bystanders. as for penalties from the league, whatever.

as for the case, i think before the contracts were signed they did have discussions about pregnancies in the near future. i can believe hamby in that she wasn't planning on getting pregnant when she was signing the contract, but i can see aces thinking that hamby lied seeing as how she got pregnant right after she signed the papers. and once they started thinking hamby lied, i can see why they might trade that person.

so i can see it as less of a retaliation for someone getting pregnant, but rather them thinking that hamby lied on purpose. as to whether that distinction means squat in court of law i dont know. but her claims of retributions seem little flimsy to me. like the thing about tuition, she really gonna go to court and complain about the aces not honoring an illegal deal?
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#35 » by sikma42 » Fri Aug 16, 2024 1:05 pm

theforumblue wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
theforumblue wrote:
she's saying she knowingly signed with Aces with those 'under the table' deals in place. yeah the team should get hit hard but she shouldn't get away with it either.


Players aren't going to be punished for cap circumventing, that's the franchise(owner/front office)'s fault.

When the Timberwolves got caught for cap circumventing many years ago with Joe Smith, the Wolves got fined 3.5m, lost multiple 1sts, and their owner and GM got banned for a year.

My question to you is though, what does the Aces' cap circumvention have to do with the merit of this lawsuit? This is about a team abusing and retaliating against a player for getting pregnant.


for 'under the table' stuff i don't see either side as innocent bystanders. as for penalties from the league, whatever.

as for the case, i think before the contracts were signed they did have discussions about pregnancies in the near future. i can believe hamby in that she wasn't planning on getting pregnant when she was signing the contract, but i can see aces thinking that hamby lied seeing as how she got pregnant right after she signed the papers. and once they started thinking hamby lied, i can see why they might trade that person.

so i can see it as less of a retaliation for someone getting pregnant, but rather them thinking that hamby lied on purpose. as to whether that distinction means squat in court of law i dont know. but her claims of retributions seem little flimsy to me. like the thing about tuition, she really gonna go to court and complain about the aces not honoring an illegal deal?


Very interesting point of view. Why do you think they discussed pregnancy during contract negotiations? Besides being a vile practice, it is also likely against CBA and US employment law.

You seem very focused on assigning blame to Hamby and punishing her.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#36 » by MrDollarBills » Fri Aug 16, 2024 1:14 pm

sikma42 wrote:
theforumblue wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Players aren't going to be punished for cap circumventing, that's the franchise(owner/front office)'s fault.

When the Timberwolves got caught for cap circumventing many years ago with Joe Smith, the Wolves got fined 3.5m, lost multiple 1sts, and their owner and GM got banned for a year.

My question to you is though, what does the Aces' cap circumvention have to do with the merit of this lawsuit? This is about a team abusing and retaliating against a player for getting pregnant.


for 'under the table' stuff i don't see either side as innocent bystanders. as for penalties from the league, whatever.

as for the case, i think before the contracts were signed they did have discussions about pregnancies in the near future. i can believe hamby in that she wasn't planning on getting pregnant when she was signing the contract, but i can see aces thinking that hamby lied seeing as how she got pregnant right after she signed the papers. and once they started thinking hamby lied, i can see why they might trade that person.

so i can see it as less of a retaliation for someone getting pregnant, but rather them thinking that hamby lied on purpose. as to whether that distinction means squat in court of law i dont know. but her claims of retributions seem little flimsy to me. like the thing about tuition, she really gonna go to court and complain about the aces not honoring an illegal deal?


Very interesting point of view. Why do you think they discussed pregnancy during contract negotiations? Besides being a vile practice, it is also likely against CBA and US employment law.

You seem very focused on assigning blame to Hamby and punishing her.



I was going to say, I'm 95% sure that is highly illegal.

Hamby is allegedly a victim here. Her being in on the Aces' cap circumvention doesn't change that.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#37 » by theforumblue » Fri Aug 16, 2024 10:38 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
sikma42 wrote:
theforumblue wrote:
for 'under the table' stuff i don't see either side as innocent bystanders. as for penalties from the league, whatever.

as for the case, i think before the contracts were signed they did have discussions about pregnancies in the near future. i can believe hamby in that she wasn't planning on getting pregnant when she was signing the contract, but i can see aces thinking that hamby lied seeing as how she got pregnant right after she signed the papers. and once they started thinking hamby lied, i can see why they might trade that person.

so i can see it as less of a retaliation for someone getting pregnant, but rather them thinking that hamby lied on purpose. as to whether that distinction means squat in court of law i dont know. but her claims of retributions seem little flimsy to me. like the thing about tuition, she really gonna go to court and complain about the aces not honoring an illegal deal?


Very interesting point of view. Why do you think they discussed pregnancy during contract negotiations? Besides being a vile practice, it is also likely against CBA and US employment law.

You seem very focused on assigning blame to Hamby and punishing her.



I was going to say, I'm 95% sure that is highly illegal.

Hamby is allegedly a victim here. Her being in on the Aces' cap circumvention doesn't change that.


it's not like i think they got their agents and lawyers in the room to discuss potential pregnancies. i do think hamby and some people on the aces were "comfortable" enough with each other to talk about it off the record. it's not like the "donations" and stuff were written into the contract either.

i dont really care who "wins" this case. i do think companies need to be held to much higher scrutiny in how they treat employees, but i'm just not inclined to automatically go all in for hamby because i think this isnt exactly the same kind of circumstance as some 9-5 person who gets fired because they got pregnant.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#38 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:30 pm

So, jumping in here, cautiously.

While I like that people are looking to come in to this situation sympathizing with the individual over the management who responded combatively to her, there are some things I've kept chewing on that aren't so clear cut to me.

First generally: The WNBA should have had really clear rules about pregnancy a long time ago. The fact they haven't doesn't mean they are nefarious people, but something like this was bound to happen - frankly the WNBA's just lucky it took this long to happen. This is an unforced error for the WNBA in my assessment.

This doesn't let the Aces off the hook ethically, but if there are super-clear standards and procedures about how to handle pregnancy in the context of contract agreement, then the WNBA would be off the hook in a way I don't see them now.

Okay, a specific point that always feels wrong on a moral level, but I think we have to talk about pragmatically:

In life, oftentimes things are just different when you're a star and when you're not. The star is given more latitude than the "role player" (to generalize the basketball term), and while that may not be "right", it's important to recognize how this might have factored in to the situation.

While Hamby on the Aces made the all-star team, within the team and organization, she was a role player who had typically come off the bench who in 2022 was signing an extension which would allow her to stay with the organization she'd been with for her entire WNBA career. Both sides I'd expect thought that the relationship was on great terms, and we should note that she'd previously had a child while on the team with similar timing and this didn't ruin the relationship - which likely made it stronger.

We can see how that might have led Hamby to believe that whatever she did before was professionally appropriate simply because the franchise didn't object...but in 2017 Hamby was a young player with potential on a terrible re-building team, whereas in 2022 Hamby was a grandfathered-in (from before Hammon) role player on a team trying to do absolutely everything to win titles right now, and they clearly expected that signing a new extension meant that that role player was all-in too, which Hamby quite clearly wasn't. Had Hamby said ahead of time she was trying to have another baby, I think it's clear the Aces wouldn't have extended her.

So then I would say: It's okay that Hamby prioritized something other than basketball, and it's okay that this disappointed Hamby's basketball team. Beyond that we're talking about a) the WNBA's standards and procedures, and b) the bad behavior that came out of the emotions of the original miscommunication.

To be clear I make no claim to know everything about the "bad behavior", and for either party, however righteous their original point, if they responded afterward with cruelty (and especially pre-meditated cruelty), I don't support that at all.

I just think that in general this is something we should expect to be a major concern in labor-management relationships in women's sports, and to the extent "what's to be done if" wasn't thought through by the WNBA before, we should keep in mind that it was that lack of clarity that put these previously harmonious relationship into antagonism.

Last note: One has to wonder about the role Hamby's late 2022 injury had on how they took the information of Hamby being pregnant. Hamby was a starter during that regular season, but in the playoffs, she played a far more minor role.

Had Hamby played a big role in those playoffs, I think it's entirely possible that Hammon is angry with the pregnancy but doesn't pursue trading Hamby away. As it was, I have to wonder if the Aces were already seeing Hamby's contract as a thing that might not have been best for the team going forward before they learned of the pregnancy.

(Also, the idea that there's anything wrong with them deciding to trade Hamby is basically a non-starter for me. Maybe the Aces would have been better off on the court in keeping her, but that's for them to decide, and when we're talking about what a now back-to-back champion team was thinking when they dealt away a role player, I'm certainly reluctant to say they weren't correct in their basketball judgment.

But again I'll emphasize: I'm not saying something is immoral to do to a star and moral to do to a role player, only that organizational treatment differing along these lines is ubiquitous and thus certainly something that should be expected in WNBA-type scenarios.)
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#39 » by eminence » Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:02 pm

It's an interesting situation to follow for broader sports.

I don't think there's a very broad window to argue "Hamby suffered "a loss of reputational prestige and brand value" and "loss of marketing and/or endorsement opportunities" after the Aces traded her to the Los Angeles Sparks in January 2023" that wouldn't apply to most/all other trades.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#40 » by MrDollarBills » Sat Aug 17, 2024 9:59 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:So, jumping in here, cautiously.

While I like that people are looking to come in to this situation sympathizing with the individual over the management who responded combatively to her, there are some things I've kept chewing on that aren't so clear cut to me.

First generally: The WNBA should have had really clear rules about pregnancy a long time ago. The fact they haven't doesn't mean they are nefarious people, but something like this was bound to happen - frankly the WNBA's just lucky it took this long to happen. This is an unforced error for the WNBA in my assessment.


The saying "Never attribute malice to that which is adequately explained by incompetence" absolutely applies here, I agree.

It's just dumb that there isn't a clear policy in place/exemption list for pregnancies. It shouldn't have taken this for the league to get serious about protecting mothers.
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