Does CP3 have any argument as being better than Durant all time?

[canada_dry]

The narrative is Chris Paul played with stacked teams and did nothing.

How come there are no top 75 players on these "stacked teams"? Aside from Harden of course.

What did these players do when he wasn't there spoonfeeding them. They did nothing to prove that he was the problem all along.

Blake was much better and finished as a top 3 mvp candidate without cp3 over controlling the offense due to being out to injury and blake being able to showcase his talents with the ball in his hands more.

Kinda not nothing.

And we saw what he looked like on the clippers and pistons without cp3... before the injuries of course. Elite all around offensive player. With a shot and very good playmaking for his size. Not just a finisher who needed to be spoonfed.

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[canada_dry]

I'm supposed to believe him losing with David West, Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan is a big deal lmao.

When Chris left the Clippers, Jordan and Griffin led the Clippers back to the lottery with .500 record and got traded because of it. Nobody remembers that though.

The narrative is Chris Paul played with stacked teams and did nothing.

How come there are no top 75 players on these "stacked teams"? Aside from Harden of course.

What did these players do when he wasn't there spoonfeeding them. They did nothing to prove that he was the problem all along.

Chris Paul made guys get All-NBA & All-star recognition. He made the general public believe he was playing on stacked teams. It's actually amazing.

You guys can't be serious lol.

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[JJ_PR]

Does CP3 have an argument of being top 50 all time? Because even that is debatable. KD is comfortably in the top 20.

[Mr Peanut]

We have stats the put everything together so we don't have to type out a lot of numbers.

CP3 vs Booker

VORP 1.2 vs 0.4
BPM 5.0 vs -0.4
WS 2.5 vs 1.2
WS/48 .178 vs .066
PER 20.7 vs 16.1

If we're just talking box score stats the gap between the two was massive.

I presume you're quoting advanced stats from the playoffs only but we're actually talking about the 2020/21 season as a whole. And the advanced stats are complementary to the debate but they don't trump everything else.

The original point is probably starting to get a bit lost here. Durant was clearly the best player on the 2012 Thunder that went to the Finals, Paul was not clearly the best player on the 2021 Suns. Just a single point in the long list of why there's no reasonable case to say Paul is better than Durant all time.

Yeah those are the basic box stats for the playoffs which seemingly is where we always go with these discussions. Though if we're looking at advanced stats and regular season, LEBRON WAR for example has CP3 at 8.4 vs Booker at 5.10. So a still massive gap. And basically the same gap as Westbrook and KD in 2012. Throw in if you want to talk about voting, CP3 was 5th in MVP voting that year too, no other sun received votes.

But if you're going with "my teammates were better than your teammates so I'm a better player" which is what ALL discussions that get into team results ultimately because we can't separate the player from teammates when the measure is just team success.

The arguments are clear as day for why someone might value CP3 over KD here. To argue there's no argument is rather absurd. There might not be an argument under YOUR criteria which might be different from others. But to argue there's no argument is just false.

I provided the basic box stats (which favor Booker), yours are the advanced stats. And once again they should be viewed as complementary to the debate, not used as a sole determinator to trump all the other stats provided or the good old fashioned eye test.

Mentioned in one of my earlier posts, but Booker came 4th in MVP voting and made the All-NBA first team the following season with fairly similar stats. Different season but it shows his position within the Suns team around that period and that he wasn't a clear second fiddle player to Paul.

I can appreciate certain points in the argument of why someone might value CP3 over KD, although the narrative of this thread would clearly indicate those individuals are in the minority of fans, and no amount of LEBRON WAR and VORP quoting is going to significantly alter that.

[LaLover11]

CP3 #2 PG of all time
Durant greatest scorer of all time

Neither of those are correct. Magic, Curry, and Thomas are the greatest point guards of all time. Jordan and Wilt are the greatest scorers of all time.

Curry is a undersized shoot guard
Durant is a better overall scorer because he can hit the 3 unlike MJ

[Edrees]

OP didn't put a poll because he knows Durant would win with 95% of votes

[druggas]

OP didn't put a poll because he knows Durant would win with 95% of votes

Agree.

[Impuniti]

I said appear.

They looked like contenders until they inevitably lost.

When it was just his impact making them look way better than they were.

He did it with a bunch of teams.

So in other words, nothing particularly special. It's easier to make bad teams look solid than it is to raise the ceiling of actual contenders. So in that respect, congratulations to CP3.

It’s not his fault the West was stacked. In 2014, he carried the Clippers to 57 wins, and in the second round they outscored KD’s Thunder by 47 points when he was on the floor, but they lost the bench minutes so badly that the Thunder still won in 6. He badly outplayed KD and Westbrook that series though and could have easily won a ring with a little bit of help.

Winners win and losers make excuses. The conference being too hard is not a good defense if your argument is that CP3 is as good as some folks him to be. What happened in other playoff series where CP3 was outscored when he was on the floor?

For his career, CP3 has made his teams 6.2 points better when he’s on the floor in the playoffs. KD has only made his teams 2.4 points better. The only reason KD “has more playoff success” is that he jumped on board a 73-win team to be the 3rd wheel. You’re literally just rewarding the weakest move of all-time if you give KD credit for being a “winner” for joining the Warriors. Without that, they each have 0 rings and 1 Finals trip.

This is why basic statistics are not worth much without context. KD has played with 3 other MVPs throughout his career, of course the impact is going to be lesser when he's on/off the court. CP3 played with an MVP level player for 2 years and the difference was never that big.

17/18 season
+10.86 with both on the floor
+8.36 Harden on, CP off
-6.89 Harden off, CP on

18/19 season
Rockets were slightly better with CP off the floor
+6.25 with both on the floor
+0.42 Harden on, CP off
-9.59 Harden off, CP on

Easy to make a big difference with an ok vs making a big difference with an elite team.

[iggymcfrack]

So in other words, nothing particularly special. It's easier to make bad teams look solid than it is to raise the ceiling of actual contenders. So in that respect, congratulations to CP3.


Winners win and losers make excuses. The conference being too hard is not a good defense if your argument is that CP3 is as good as some folks him to be. What happened in other playoff series where CP3 was outscored when he was on the floor?

For his career, CP3 has made his teams 6.2 points better when he’s on the floor in the playoffs. KD has only made his teams 2.4 points better. The only reason KD “has more playoff success” is that he jumped on board a 73-win team to be the 3rd wheel. You’re literally just rewarding the weakest move of all-time if you give KD credit for being a “winner” for joining the Warriors. Without that, they each have 0 rings and 1 Finals trip.

This is why basic statistics are not worth much without context. KD has played with 3 other MVPs throughout his career, of course the impact is going to be lesser when he's on/off the court. CP3 played with an MVP level player for 2 years and the difference was never that big.

17/18 season
+10.86 with both on the floor
+8.36 Harden on, CP off
-6.89 Harden off, CP on

18/19 season
Rockets were slightly better with CP off the floor
+6.25 with both on the floor
+0.42 Harden on, CP off
-9.59 Harden off, CP on

Easy to make a big difference with an ok vs making a big difference with an elite team.

So for the exact stat I was looking at which would be playoff on/off, Chris Paul was +6.6 in Houston vs. +6.2 for his career as a whole. It is very possible for 2 superstar level players to both show positive impact in these sort of metrics on the same team.

Interestingly Durant’s playoff on/off was actually much better when he played next to MVP candidates in Curry and Westbrook. The issue is that he has a playoff on/off of -14.3 in Brooklyn and Phoenix headlined by the series where he was absolutely horrendous in getting swept by Boston where he got his pocket picked non-stop, had a BPM of -2.9, and the Nets were 52.9 points worse with him on the floor.

[Impuniti]

For his career, CP3 has made his teams 6.2 points better when he’s on the floor in the playoffs. KD has only made his teams 2.4 points better. The only reason KD “has more playoff success” is that he jumped on board a 73-win team to be the 3rd wheel. You’re literally just rewarding the weakest move of all-time if you give KD credit for being a “winner” for joining the Warriors. Without that, they each have 0 rings and 1 Finals trip.

This is why basic statistics are not worth much without context. KD has played with 3 other MVPs throughout his career, of course the impact is going to be lesser when he's on/off the court. CP3 played with an MVP level player for 2 years and the difference was never that big.

17/18 season
+10.86 with both on the floor
+8.36 Harden on, CP off
-6.89 Harden off, CP on

18/19 season
Rockets were slightly better with CP off the floor
+6.25 with both on the floor
+0.42 Harden on, CP off
-9.59 Harden off, CP on

Easy to make a big difference with an ok vs making a big difference with an elite team.

So for the exact stat I was looking at which would be playoff on/off, Chris Paul was +6.6 in Houston vs. +6.2 for his career as a whole. It is very possible for 2 superstar level players to both show positive impact in these sort of metrics on the same team.

Interestingly Durant’s playoff on/off was actually much better when he played next to MVP candidates in Curry and Westbrook. The issue is that he has a playoff on/off of -14.3 in Brooklyn and Phoenix headlined by the series where he was absolutely horrendous in getting swept by Boston where he got his pocket picked non-stop, had a BPM of -2.9, and the Nets were 52.9 points worse with him on the floor.

Right, but his impact cratered at Houston when you look at his partner. When you take into account Harden instead of just pure on/off, you see his impact falls off a cliff. If you just look at Houston and CP3 by itself without accounting Harden, it looks much better. Now CP3 still turned that very good team into an elite team that was also a contender (so he's done this 3 times in nearly 20 years of basketball), but his impact will always be felt on a lesser scale when you account for elite level talent.

[Lost92Bricks]

So in other words, nothing particularly special. It's easier to make bad teams look solid than it is to raise the ceiling of actual contenders. So in that respect, congratulations to CP3.

Well I don't see anybody putting players like Tony Parker in any all-time lists so maybe it is special.

[Lost92Bricks]

Blake was much better and finished as a top 3 mvp candidate without cp3 over controlling the offense due to being out to injury and blake being able to showcase his talents with the ball in his hands more.

Kinda not nothing.

And we saw what he looked like on the clippers and pistons without cp3... before the injuries of course. Elite all around offensive player. With a shot and very good playmaking for his size. Not just a finisher who needed to be spoonfed.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Stop it.

When Blake was on the Pistons they won 41 games and got swept in the first round. He was irrelevant.

[MavsDirk41]

CP3 #2 PG of all time
Durant greatest scorer of all time

Neither of those are correct. Magic, Curry, and Thomas are the greatest point guards of all time. Jordan and Wilt are the greatest scorers of all time.

Curry is a undersized shoot guard
Durant is a better overall scorer because he can hit the 3 unlike MJ

Career playoff scoring average
Jordan 33.4
Durant 27.3

Career playoff 50 points games
Jordan 8
Durant 1

Career playoff 40 point games
Jordan 38
Durant 14

Career 40 point games
Jordan 173
Durant 70

Career 50 point games
Jordan 31
Durant 9

Scoring titles
Jordan 10
Durant 4

Durant is one of the greatest scorers ever but Jordan has the accolades, stats, and more big time playoff scoring games/moments.

Even if you say Curry is a SG i would put Thomas and the Big O over Paul on the PG rankings.

[LaLover11]

Neither of those are correct. Magic, Curry, and Thomas are the greatest point guards of all time. Jordan and Wilt are the greatest scorers of all time.

Curry is a undersized shoot guard
Durant is a better overall scorer because he can hit the 3 unlike MJ

Career playoff scoring average
Jordan 33.4
Durant 27.3

Career playoff 50 points games
Jordan 8
Durant 1

Career playoff 40 point games
Jordan 38
Durant 14

Career 40 point games
Jordan 173
Durant 70

Career 50 point games
Jordan 31
Durant 9

Scoring titles
Jordan 10
Durant 4

Durant is one of the greatest scorers ever but Jordan has the accolades, stats, and more big time playoff scoring games/moments.

Even if you say Curry is a SG i would put Thomas and the Big O over Paul on the PG rankings.

You do realize Durant played on a team with Westbrook who controlled the whole teams possessions and Harden who was a scorer.

No matter where Durant went he was also next to teammates like Curry, Klay, Kyrie, Booker, Beal all great scorers that takes away shots and high scoring games.


MJ played on a team where he was the #1 & #2 option and Pippen played Point Forwards and didn't really care about His scoring numbers of FGA

Look at the 2024 Olympic scoring PPG

They all scored 10-15ppg because there was so many options and they couldn't shoot 30 plus FGA like MJ

Durant is a more complete scorer vs MJ
It's just facts

[One_and_Done]

Neither of those are correct. Magic, Curry, and Thomas are the greatest point guards of all time. Jordan and Wilt are the greatest scorers of all time.

Curry is a undersized shoot guard
Durant is a better overall scorer because he can hit the 3 unlike MJ

Career playoff scoring average
Jordan 33.4
Durant 27.3

Career playoff 50 points games
Jordan 8
Durant 1

Career playoff 40 point games
Jordan 38
Durant 14

Career 40 point games
Jordan 173
Durant 70

Career 50 point games
Jordan 31
Durant 9

Scoring titles
Jordan 10
Durant 4

Durant is one of the greatest scorers ever but Jordan has the accolades, stats, and more big time playoff scoring games/moments.

Even if you say Curry is a SG i would put Thomas and the Big O over Paul on the PG rankings.

These are such meaningless and arbitrary benchmarks. It's 2024, we can do better than looking at ppg to know who the best scorer is.

[The Servant]

Can we get a poll? Let's get some votes!

[DoItALL9]

This is why basic statistics are not worth much without context. KD has played with 3 other MVPs throughout his career, of course the impact is going to be lesser when he's on/off the court. CP3 played with an MVP level player for 2 years and the difference was never that big.

17/18 season
+10.86 with both on the floor
+8.36 Harden on, CP off
-6.89 Harden off, CP on

18/19 season
Rockets were slightly better with CP off the floor
+6.25 with both on the floor
+0.42 Harden on, CP off
-9.59 Harden off, CP on

Easy to make a big difference with an ok vs making a big difference with an elite team.

So for the exact stat I was looking at which would be playoff on/off, Chris Paul was +6.6 in Houston vs. +6.2 for his career as a whole. It is very possible for 2 superstar level players to both show positive impact in these sort of metrics on the same team.

Interestingly Durant’s playoff on/off was actually much better when he played next to MVP candidates in Curry and Westbrook. The issue is that he has a playoff on/off of -14.3 in Brooklyn and Phoenix headlined by the series where he was absolutely horrendous in getting swept by Boston where he got his pocket picked non-stop, had a BPM of -2.9, and the Nets were 52.9 points worse with him on the floor.

Right, but his impact cratered at Houston when you look at his partner. When you take into account Harden instead of just pure on/off, you see his impact falls off a cliff. If you just look at Houston and CP3 by itself without accounting Harden, it looks much better. Now CP3 still turned that very good team into an elite team that was also a contender (so he's done this 3 times in nearly 20 years of basketball), but his impact will always be felt on a lesser scale when you account for elite level talent.

All elite level talent isn't equal.
Putting LeBron next to Westbrook didn't work excellently. Putting LeBron next to Harden wouldn't maximize the talents of both either.

It's not hard to figure out why Harden with CP3 left something to be desired even though it worked quite well.

Mike D'Antoni spoke on it at the time too.

[MavsDirk41]

Curry is a undersized shoot guard
Durant is a better overall scorer because he can hit the 3 unlike MJ

Career playoff scoring average
Jordan 33.4
Durant 27.3

Career playoff 50 points games
Jordan 8
Durant 1

Career playoff 40 point games
Jordan 38
Durant 14

Career 40 point games
Jordan 173
Durant 70

Career 50 point games
Jordan 31
Durant 9

Scoring titles
Jordan 10
Durant 4

Durant is one of the greatest scorers ever but Jordan has the accolades, stats, and more big time playoff scoring games/moments.

Even if you say Curry is a SG i would put Thomas and the Big O over Paul on the PG rankings.

You do realize Durant played on a team with Westbrook who controlled the whole teams possessions and Harden who was a scorer.

No matter where Durant went he was also next to teammates like Curry, Klay, Kyrie, Booker, Beal all great scorers that takes away shots and high scoring games.


MJ played on a team where he was the #1 & #2 option and Pippen played Point Forwards and didn't really care about His scoring numbers of FGA

Look at the 2024 Olympic scoring PPG

They all scored 10-15ppg because there was so many options and they couldn't shoot 30 plus FGA like MJ

Durant is a more complete scorer vs MJ
It's just facts

So Jordan always had to carry the scoring burden while Durant had Curry, Thompson, Harden, Westbrook, Booker, Beal, and Irving, which means Jordan faced way more double or even triple teams? Yes i would agree with that. Both could score from anywhere on the court but Jordan was more explosive in his younger years and had a better post game.

[MavsDirk41]

Curry is a undersized shoot guard
Durant is a better overall scorer because he can hit the 3 unlike MJ

Career playoff scoring average
Jordan 33.4
Durant 27.3

Career playoff 50 points games
Jordan 8
Durant 1

Career playoff 40 point games
Jordan 38
Durant 14

Career 40 point games
Jordan 173
Durant 70

Career 50 point games
Jordan 31
Durant 9

Scoring titles
Jordan 10
Durant 4

Durant is one of the greatest scorers ever but Jordan has the accolades, stats, and more big time playoff scoring games/moments.

Even if you say Curry is a SG i would put Thomas and the Big O over Paul on the PG rankings.

These are such meaningless and arbitrary benchmarks. It's 2024, we can do better than looking at ppg to know who the best scorer is.

Yea i watched both careers and its Jordan. Nothing against Durant he is certainly a goat level offensive player.

[One_and_Done]

Career playoff scoring average
Jordan 33.4
Durant 27.3

Career playoff 50 points games
Jordan 8
Durant 1

Career playoff 40 point games
Jordan 38
Durant 14

Career 40 point games
Jordan 173
Durant 70

Career 50 point games
Jordan 31
Durant 9

Scoring titles
Jordan 10
Durant 4

Durant is one of the greatest scorers ever but Jordan has the accolades, stats, and more big time playoff scoring games/moments.

Even if you say Curry is a SG i would put Thomas and the Big O over Paul on the PG rankings.

These are such meaningless and arbitrary benchmarks. It's 2024, we can do better than looking at ppg to know who the best scorer is.

Yea i watched both careers and its Jordan. Nothing against Durant he is certainly a goat level offensive player.

It's definitely possible to make a case for KD. It's not his fault he didn't spend his career in the weaker era MJ played in. Not sure I'd take KD, but none of the stiff you cited above is relevant.