Does CP3 have any argument as being better than Durant all time?

[LaLover11]

Career playoff scoring average
Jordan 33.4
Durant 27.3

Career playoff 50 points games
Jordan 8
Durant 1

Career playoff 40 point games
Jordan 38
Durant 14

Career 40 point games
Jordan 173
Durant 70

Career 50 point games
Jordan 31
Durant 9

Scoring titles
Jordan 10
Durant 4

Durant is one of the greatest scorers ever but Jordan has the accolades, stats, and more big time playoff scoring games/moments.

Even if you say Curry is a SG i would put Thomas and the Big O over Paul on the PG rankings.

You do realize Durant played on a team with Westbrook who controlled the whole teams possessions and Harden who was a scorer.

No matter where Durant went he was also next to teammates like Curry, Klay, Kyrie, Booker, Beal all great scorers that takes away shots and high scoring games.


MJ played on a team where he was the #1 & #2 option and Pippen played Point Forwards and didn't really care about His scoring numbers of FGA

Look at the 2024 Olympic scoring PPG

They all scored 10-15ppg because there was so many options and they couldn't shoot 30 plus FGA like MJ

Durant is a more complete scorer vs MJ
It's just facts

So Jordan always had to carry the scoring burden while Durant had Curry, Thompson, Harden, Westbrook, Booker, Beal, and Irving, which means Jordan faced way more double or even triple teams? Yes i would agree with that. Both could score from anywhere on the court but Jordan was more explosive in his younger years and had a better post game.[/quote


Nobody in the League triple teamed MJ that's a myth
Illegal defense helped MJ play 1 vs 1 teams in the 80's & 90's.

Throw Prime Durant with the current Wizards team and tell him to score as much as possible & let him play with the same rules. He would be averaging insane numbers

Durant is a bigger freak athlete than MJ

Durant: 7ft Tall with true guard skills and a unstoppable cross over mid range fadeaway and a deadly 3pt shot
He could also Dunk on smaller players and similar size players. He can score from literally everywhere

MJ: 6'6 Guard that had a ridiculous mid range post up game and crazy athletism but his 3pt shot was average to above average, yes it's because of his era but you can't
Change history and his attributes.

[MavsDirk41]

You do realize Durant played on a team with Westbrook who controlled the whole teams possessions and Harden who was a scorer.

No matter where Durant went he was also next to teammates like Curry, Klay, Kyrie, Booker, Beal all great scorers that takes away shots and high scoring games.


MJ played on a team where he was the #1 & #2 option and Pippen played Point Forwards and didn't really care about His scoring numbers of FGA

Look at the 2024 Olympic scoring PPG

They all scored 10-15ppg because there was so many options and they couldn't shoot 30 plus FGA like MJ

Durant is a more complete scorer vs MJ
It's just facts

So Jordan always had to carry the scoring burden while Durant had Curry, Thompson, Harden, Westbrook, Booker, Beal, and Irving, which means Jordan faced way more double or even triple teams? Yes i would agree with that. Both could score from anywhere on the court but Jordan was more explosive in his younger years and had a better post game.[/quote


Nobody in the League triple teamed MJ that's a myth
Illegal defense helped MJ play 1 vs 1 teams in the 80's & 90's.

Throw Prime Durant with the current Wizards team and tell him to score as much as possible & let him play with the same rules. He would be averaging insane numbers

Durant is a bigger freak athlete than MJ

Durant: 7ft Tall with true guard skills and a unstoppable cross over mid range fadeaway and a deadly 3pt shot
He could also Dunk on smaller players and similar size players. He can score from literally everywhere

MJ: 6'6 Guard that had a ridiculous mid range post up game and crazy athletism but his 3pt shot was average to above average, yes it's because of his era but you can't
Change history and his attributes.

Go watch some 80s Bulls games and get back to me about the myth thing.

[MavsDirk41]

These are such meaningless and arbitrary benchmarks. It's 2024, we can do better than looking at ppg to know who the best scorer is.

Yea i watched both careers and its Jordan. Nothing against Durant he is certainly a goat level offensive player.

It's definitely possible to make a case for KD. It's not his fault he didn't spend his career in the weaker era MJ played in. Not sure I'd take KD, but none of the stiff you cited above is relevant.

- of course a case can be made for Durant
- your remarks about players from the 80s and 90s is childish
- its not relevant because you dont like it cause it doesn’t fit your agenda

[dhsilv2]

I presume you're quoting advanced stats from the playoffs only but we're actually talking about the 2020/21 season as a whole. And the advanced stats are complementary to the debate but they don't trump everything else.

The original point is probably starting to get a bit lost here. Durant was clearly the best player on the 2012 Thunder that went to the Finals, Paul was not clearly the best player on the 2021 Suns. Just a single point in the long list of why there's no reasonable case to say Paul is better than Durant all time.

Yeah those are the basic box stats for the playoffs which seemingly is where we always go with these discussions. Though if we're looking at advanced stats and regular season, LEBRON WAR for example has CP3 at 8.4 vs Booker at 5.10. So a still massive gap. And basically the same gap as Westbrook and KD in 2012. Throw in if you want to talk about voting, CP3 was 5th in MVP voting that year too, no other sun received votes.

But if you're going with "my teammates were better than your teammates so I'm a better player" which is what ALL discussions that get into team results ultimately because we can't separate the player from teammates when the measure is just team success.

The arguments are clear as day for why someone might value CP3 over KD here. To argue there's no argument is rather absurd. There might not be an argument under YOUR criteria which might be different from others. But to argue there's no argument is just false.

I provided the basic box stats (which favor Booker), yours are the advanced stats. And once again they should be viewed as complementary to the debate, not used as a sole determinator to trump all the other stats provided or the good old fashioned eye test.

Mentioned in one of my earlier posts, but Booker came 4th in MVP voting and made the All-NBA first team the following season with fairly similar stats. Different season but it shows his position within the Suns team around that period and that he wasn't a clear second fiddle player to Paul.

I can appreciate certain points in the argument of why someone might value CP3 over KD, although the narrative of this thread would clearly indicate those individuals are in the minority of fans, and no amount of LEBRON WAR and VORP quoting is going to significantly alter that.

No the basic box score stats favor CP3. Stats like PER, WS, and BPM are basic stats that summarize the box score. I know some like to call per game or whatever stats basic and call those basic box stats like PER "advanced". But if we do that, then they always agree with each other. As they are the SAME EXACT STATS! It's just how you read them...and if you read them differently than ALL of those metrics...you just read them wrong.

Advanced stats today are those that use plus minus data and/or player tracking data.

IF you use the box score, and the FULL BOX SCORE, there's no argument for Booker over CP3.

As for the debate, real GM just voted for this, and by simply setting a criteria where you have to argue your point and ask to vote...CP3 won. So it's pretty clear of those who feel their opinions can stand up to scrutiny, the majority took CP3. That said the question wasn't, is CP3 better. The question was if there was a case at all. Meaning you'd likely have to have 10-20 players between the two. That's an absurd argument imo. Taking KD over CP3 is perfectly reasonable. I'd expect most people here would do that, most people here aren't going to spend the time to think through a ranking list and quantify their rankings to 100-150 players. But if you do that and you have these two 20 spots apart...I think you're full of crap.

[dhsilv2]

:evil:

So Jordan always had to carry the scoring burden while Durant had Curry, Thompson, Harden, Westbrook, Booker, Beal, and Irving, which means Jordan faced way more double or even triple teams? Yes i would agree with that. Both could score from anywhere on the court but Jordan was more explosive in his younger years and had a better post game.[/quote


Nobody in the League triple teamed MJ that's a myth
Illegal defense helped MJ play 1 vs 1 teams in the 80's & 90's.

Throw Prime Durant with the current Wizards team and tell him to score as much as possible & let him play with the same rules. He would be averaging insane numbers

Durant is a bigger freak athlete than MJ

Durant: 7ft Tall with true guard skills and a unstoppable cross over mid range fadeaway and a deadly 3pt shot
He could also Dunk on smaller players and similar size players. He can score from literally everywhere

MJ: 6'6 Guard that had a ridiculous mid range post up game and crazy athletism but his 3pt shot was average to above average, yes it's because of his era but you can't
Change history and his attributes.

Go watch some 80s Bulls games and get back to me about the myth thing.

Early MJ was posting up like 6 feet out with every teammate inside the line often. I'm not even sure you could define a double or all 5 on him...it was some of the worst ball I've ever seen. But yeah...MJ got triple teamed. Before Phil the bull's were all just playing in a 15x15 box....it was even by the time bad. But by today's times laughable.

[MavsDirk41]

:evil:

So Jordan always had to carry the scoring burden while Durant had Curry, Thompson, Harden, Westbrook, Booker, Beal, and Irving, which means Jordan faced way more double or even triple teams? Yes i would agree with that. Both could score from anywhere on the court but Jordan was more explosive in his younger years and had a better post game.[/quote


Nobody in the League triple teamed MJ that's a myth
Illegal defense helped MJ play 1 vs 1 teams in the 80's & 90's.

Throw Prime Durant with the current Wizards team and tell him to score as much as possible & let him play with the same rules. He would be averaging insane numbers

Durant is a bigger freak athlete than MJ

Durant: 7ft Tall with true guard skills and a unstoppable cross over mid range fadeaway and a deadly 3pt shot
He could also Dunk on smaller players and similar size players. He can score from literally everywhere

MJ: 6'6 Guard that had a ridiculous mid range post up game and crazy athletism but his 3pt shot was average to above average, yes it's because of his era but you can't
Change history and his attributes.

Go watch some 80s Bulls games and get back to me about the myth thing.

Early MJ was posting up like 6 feet out with every teammate inside the line often. I'm not even sure you could define a double or all 5 on him...it was some of the worst ball I've ever seen. But yeah...MJ got triple teamed. Before Phil the bull's were all just playing in a 15x15 box....it was even by the time bad. But by today's times laughable.

My man, every time he would try to drive to the basket against teams like Detroit and Atlanta he would have 3 dudes coming for him in the 80s. Yea, the triangle changed that of course. Im talking pre-Phil. Today is spread the court and pass the ball around until someone gets an open 3. Not much more exciting sorry.

[LaLover11]

:evil:

Go watch some 80s Bulls games and get back to me about the myth thing.

Early MJ was posting up like 6 feet out with every teammate inside the line often. I'm not even sure you could define a double or all 5 on him...it was some of the worst ball I've ever seen. But yeah...MJ got triple teamed. Before Phil the bull's were all just playing in a 15x15 box....it was even by the time bad. But by today's times laughable.

My man, every time he would try to drive to the basket against teams like Detroit and Atlanta he would have 3 dudes coming for him in the 80s. Yea, the triangle changed that of course. Im talking pre-Phil. Today is spread the court and pass the ball around until someone gets an open 3. Not much more exciting sorry.

I'm talking about a force double at half court to get the ball out of his hands every possession.

The reason that didn't happen or couldn't happen was because Pippen brought the ball up the court and teams never double teamed Pippen because MJ would be open

He was very lucky and I mean extremely lucky to have a 6'8 Point forward to run the whole offense.

Without Pippen he would've got Trapped 24/7
I understand that was when he had the ball in the post he would attack the paint and go thru multiple players

[Nate505]

No. I despise cupcake Durant and don't value his titles at all, but that said, there's a reason people were upset about the snake going to the Warriors. They knew they would be an unbeatable force, and they pretty much were.

I don't think people are saying the same thing if Paul joins the Warriors, though it's not quite the apples and apples comparison given he plays the same position as Curry.

[dhsilv2]

:evil:

Go watch some 80s Bulls games and get back to me about the myth thing.

Early MJ was posting up like 6 feet out with every teammate inside the line often. I'm not even sure you could define a double or all 5 on him...it was some of the worst ball I've ever seen. But yeah...MJ got triple teamed. Before Phil the bull's were all just playing in a 15x15 box....it was even by the time bad. But by today's times laughable.

My man, every time he would try to drive to the basket against teams like Detroit and Atlanta he would have 3 dudes coming for him in the 80s. Yea, the triangle changed that of course. Im talking pre-Phil. Today is spread the court and pass the ball around until someone gets an open 3. Not much more exciting sorry.

I'm talking EARLY MJ bro. Not playoff MJ. Go watch his first few seasons non playoff games. Drive? Dude was posting up in the center area...it was weird. Maybe I haven't watched enough bad team late 70's early 80's games...but yeah.

[dhsilv2]

No. I despise cupcake Durant and don't value his titles at all, but that said, there's a reason people were upset about the snake going to the Warriors. They knew they would be an unbeatable force, and they pretty much were.

I don't think people are saying the same thing if Paul joins the Warriors, though it's not quite the apples and apples comparison given he plays the same position as Curry.

Possition? No, Paul is more green's role in the half court. The issue is they have green and he's shorter than Curry...

[One_and_Done]

Yea i watched both careers and its Jordan. Nothing against Durant he is certainly a goat level offensive player.

It's definitely possible to make a case for KD. It's not his fault he didn't spend his career in the weaker era MJ played in. Not sure I'd take KD, but none of the stiff you cited above is relevant.

- of course a case can be made for Durant
- your remarks about players from the 80s and 90s is childish
- its not relevant because you dont like it cause it doesn’t fit your agenda

I'm talking about KD having a case over Jordan.

[MavsDirk41]

Early MJ was posting up like 6 feet out with every teammate inside the line often. I'm not even sure you could define a double or all 5 on him...it was some of the worst ball I've ever seen. But yeah...MJ got triple teamed. Before Phil the bull's were all just playing in a 15x15 box....it was even by the time bad. But by today's times laughable.

My man, every time he would try to drive to the basket against teams like Detroit and Atlanta he would have 3 dudes coming for him in the 80s. Yea, the triangle changed that of course. Im talking pre-Phil. Today is spread the court and pass the ball around until someone gets an open 3. Not much more exciting sorry.

I'm talking about a force double at half court to get the ball out of his hands every possession.

The reason that didn't happen or couldn't happen was because Pippen brought the ball up the court and teams never double teamed Pippen because MJ would be open

He was very lucky and I mean extremely lucky to have a 6'8 Point forward to run the whole offense.

Without Pippen he would've got Trapped 24/7
I understand that was when he had the ball in the post he would attack the paint and go thru multiple players

Bulls ran the triangle during their championship runs which focused on ball movement, quality shots. Thats not saying Jordan quit isolating, just not to the extreme he did pre-Jackson. Bulls didnt have a traditional PG, Pippen, BJ, Paxson, Ron Harper, Jordan all brought the ball up the court at various times. Thank goodness Jackson instituted the triangle.

[MavsDirk41]

It's definitely possible to make a case for KD. It's not his fault he didn't spend his career in the weaker era MJ played in. Not sure I'd take KD, but none of the stiff you cited above is relevant.

- of course a case can be made for Durant
- your remarks about players from the 80s and 90s is childish
- its not relevant because you dont like it cause it doesn’t fit your agenda

I'm talking about KD having a case over Jordan.

Durant and Jordan have a case as the greatest scorer ever, yes.

[dhsilv2]

My man, every time he would try to drive to the basket against teams like Detroit and Atlanta he would have 3 dudes coming for him in the 80s. Yea, the triangle changed that of course. Im talking pre-Phil. Today is spread the court and pass the ball around until someone gets an open 3. Not much more exciting sorry.

I'm talking about a force double at half court to get the ball out of his hands every possession.

The reason that didn't happen or couldn't happen was because Pippen brought the ball up the court and teams never double teamed Pippen because MJ would be open

He was very lucky and I mean extremely lucky to have a 6'8 Point forward to run the whole offense.

Without Pippen he would've got Trapped 24/7
I understand that was when he had the ball in the post he would attack the paint and go thru multiple players

Bulls ran the triangle during their championship runs which focused on ball movement, quality shots. Thats not saying Jordan quit isolating, just not to the extreme he did pre-Jackson. Bulls didnt have a traditional PG, Pippen, BJ, Paxson, Ron Harper, Jordan all brought the ball up the court at various times. Thank goodness Jackson instituted the triangle.

The triable doesn't use a point guard. It isn't a lack of one. It is a system that simply doesn't have one in it in the first place. Kerr is using a modernized triangle and again no point guard.

[MavsDirk41]

I'm talking about a force double at half court to get the ball out of his hands every possession.

The reason that didn't happen or couldn't happen was because Pippen brought the ball up the court and teams never double teamed Pippen because MJ would be open

He was very lucky and I mean extremely lucky to have a 6'8 Point forward to run the whole offense.

Without Pippen he would've got Trapped 24/7
I understand that was when he had the ball in the post he would attack the paint and go thru multiple players

Bulls ran the triangle during their championship runs which focused on ball movement, quality shots. Thats not saying Jordan quit isolating, just not to the extreme he did pre-Jackson. Bulls didnt have a traditional PG, Pippen, BJ, Paxson, Ron Harper, Jordan all brought the ball up the court at various times. Thank goodness Jackson instituted the triangle.

The triable doesn't use a point guard. It isn't a lack of one. It is a system that simply doesn't have one in it in the first place. Kerr is using a modernized triangle and again no point guard.

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

[LaLover11]

Bulls ran the triangle during their championship runs which focused on ball movement, quality shots. Thats not saying Jordan quit isolating, just not to the extreme he did pre-Jackson. Bulls didnt have a traditional PG, Pippen, BJ, Paxson, Ron Harper, Jordan all brought the ball up the court at various times. Thank goodness Jackson instituted the triangle.

The triable doesn't use a point guard. It isn't a lack of one. It is a system that simply doesn't have one in it in the first place. Kerr is using a modernized triangle and again no point guard.

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

Pippen was a real point guard, he was just 6'8

Shrink him to be 6'3 and he would be called a starting Point Guard.

C'mon man

[MavsDirk41]

The triable doesn't use a point guard. It isn't a lack of one. It is a system that simply doesn't have one in it in the first place. Kerr is using a modernized triangle and again no point guard.

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

Pippen was a real point guard, he was just 6'8

Shrink him to be 6'3 and he would be called a starting Point Guard.

C'mon man

Pippen could do a little bit of everything but he wasnt a traditional point guard

[dhsilv2]

Bulls ran the triangle during their championship runs which focused on ball movement, quality shots. Thats not saying Jordan quit isolating, just not to the extreme he did pre-Jackson. Bulls didnt have a traditional PG, Pippen, BJ, Paxson, Ron Harper, Jordan all brought the ball up the court at various times. Thank goodness Jackson instituted the triangle.

The triable doesn't use a point guard. It isn't a lack of one. It is a system that simply doesn't have one in it in the first place. Kerr is using a modernized triangle and again no point guard.

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

Well yeah...and neither did the lakers. GM's don't get guys to do roles the team doesn't need. I'm not really sure what the point is here though. Like, if you had CP3 in the triangle, he'd mostly be a scorer posting up...his game actually isn't that different as a scorer than a lot of MJ's sets.

Now that said, I don't think you'd get the best value out of paul in the triangle either. Which is where I'm confused. Yeah he isn't the guy for that that. He also could be great with the 90's bulls in another system.

[dhsilv2]

The triable doesn't use a point guard. It isn't a lack of one. It is a system that simply doesn't have one in it in the first place. Kerr is using a modernized triangle and again no point guard.

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

Pippen was a real point guard, he was just 6'8

Shrink him to be 6'3 and he would be called a starting Point Guard.

C'mon man

He was the primary ball handler. But he didn't create with his passing. He just would feed the first entry pass as they setup the half court in general. Obviously he could run point in a break or something. He was talented enough. But he wasn't actually doing point guard stuff in their half court sets.

[MavsDirk41]

The triable doesn't use a point guard. It isn't a lack of one. It is a system that simply doesn't have one in it in the first place. Kerr is using a modernized triangle and again no point guard.

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

Well yeah...and neither did the lakers. GM's don't get guys to do roles the team doesn't need. I'm not really sure what the point is here though. Like, if you had CP3 in the triangle, he'd mostly be a scorer posting up...his game actually isn't that different as a scorer than a lot of MJ's sets.

Now that said, I don't think you'd get the best value out of paul in the triangle either. Which is where I'm confused. Yeah he isn't the guy for that that. He also could be great with the 90's bulls in another system.

I only brought up the triangle cause someone said the Bulls were lucky to have a point guard like Pippen. Pippen had playmaking skills but so did Jordan and Kukoc, doesnt mean they were point guards. I also mentioned how several of the Bulls would bring the ball up the court and not just Pippen.