Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA

[G R E Y]

I accept that at highest levels of competition, leaders are hard asses, even a-holes. Manu said as much to Pop's face in that post 2014 retrospective when they, alongside Timmy and Tony, were reminiscing in a gym about that historic championship.

But there is a line, and in my mind it's doing something the right way. Pop, for instance, cut SJax from the team before the playoffs. I mean, think about the implications for the person behind the player. SJax is still bitter about it. But it was best for the team, and nobody got sued as it was well within a team's right to do so.

The issue with Hammon and Aces is the working around murky laws and systematically erasing Hamby which point to intent not negligence or ignorance. That is wholly different and tiers below simple aholeness into 'I'm protected, and you can't touch me for doing this' territory.

It's kind of insidious, especially for someone who is a Mom herself (even though legally that has nothing to do with it).

Anyway, it just really rubs me the wrong way, again.

[mattg]

Honestly Hammon should be fired and blackballed from the league. Whether there is official WNBA policy in place or not in this case is completely irrelevant, literally does not apply whatsoever here as this is a clear cut employment discrimination case and any good employment law firm is going to EVISCERATE the WNBA and the Aces. Literally any competent basic HR department in corporate America would have jettisoned Hammon into the sun when they first caught wind of this happening and they would have settled on top of that. The fact that the WNBA has let it escalate to this point is such an immense failing of their legal department and decision making of the league office. Unfathomably stupid.

Also, Hammon has to be incredibly dumb to do what she did. She's worked in professional, corporate environments for years. She made an inexcusable error that simply can't happen, and if you make that mistake from a major position of authority/power, your career might just be done (if it isn't, Hammon becomes a MASSIVE employment risk to keep around).

[G R E Y]

Honestly Hammon should be fired and blackballed from the league. Whether there is official WNBA policy in place or not in this case is completely irrelevant, literally does not apply whatsoever here as this is a clear cut employment discrimination case and any good employment law firm is going to EVISCERATE the WNBA and the Aces. Literally any competent basic HR department in corporate America would have jettisoned Hammon into the sun when they first caught wind of this happening and they would have settled on top of that. The fact that the WNBA has let it escalate to this point is such an immense failing of their legal department and decision making of the league office. Unfathomably stupid.

Also, Hammon has to be incredibly dumb to do what she did. She's worked in professional, corporate environments for years. She made an inexcusable error that simply can't happen, and if you make that mistake from a major position of authority/power, your career might just be done (if it isn't, Hammon becomes a MASSIVE employment risk to keep around).

Yeah I mean it's disappointing Hammon went this route so full force, but it points to a systemic issue with the Aces. It's win at all costs, including breaking any rules or people that may get in the way. A culture of align or get punished is less military and more cultish. No I don't literally mean a cult. But this case clearly swerves away from discipline and putting yourself on the line for the best of the group to you got pregnant (was it on purpose?!) and so GTFO. The one shapes the person; the other ignores and erases the person. It's gross.

[MrDollarBills]

Honestly Hammon should be fired and blackballed from the league. Whether there is official WNBA policy in place or not in this case is completely irrelevant, literally does not apply whatsoever here as this is a clear cut employment discrimination case and any good employment law firm is going to EVISCERATE the WNBA and the Aces. Literally any competent basic HR department in corporate America would have jettisoned Hammon into the sun when they first caught wind of this happening and they would have settled on top of that. The fact that the WNBA has let it escalate to this point is such an immense failing of their legal department and decision making of the league office. Unfathomably stupid.

Also, Hammon has to be incredibly dumb to do what she did. She's worked in professional, corporate environments for years. She made an inexcusable error that simply can't happen, and if you make that mistake from a major position of authority/power, your career might just be done (if it isn't, Hammon becomes a MASSIVE employment risk to keep around).

Yeah I mean it's disappointing Hammon went this route so full force, but it points to a systemic issue with the Aces. It's win at all costs, including breaking any rules or people that may get in the way. A culture of align or get punished is less military and more cultish. No I don't literally mean a cult. But this case clearly swerves away from discipline and putting yourself on the line for the best of the group to you got pregnant (was it on purpose?!) and so GTFO. The one shapes the person; the other ignores and erases the person. It's gross.

Right.

Winning shouldn't come at the expense of integrity and common human decency. This is the part where I'm just like what the hell is wrong with them?

I dunno. I feel like treating a pregnant person like that crosses a massive red line that no one should cross. Regardless of gender.

Dearica getting pregnant isn't anyone's business but her own and her partner's. That question about her taking precautions....bro thats none of your business!! She shouldn't be bullied or punished for being a mother. The only acceptable response in my opinion should be

"Hey, how can we help you? Do you need anything? Don't worry, we are here for you."

Becky failed here as a leader, a coach, and as a person. You don't do that to anyone.

[mattg]

Honestly Hammon should be fired and blackballed from the league. Whether there is official WNBA policy in place or not in this case is completely irrelevant, literally does not apply whatsoever here as this is a clear cut employment discrimination case and any good employment law firm is going to EVISCERATE the WNBA and the Aces. Literally any competent basic HR department in corporate America would have jettisoned Hammon into the sun when they first caught wind of this happening and they would have settled on top of that. The fact that the WNBA has let it escalate to this point is such an immense failing of their legal department and decision making of the league office. Unfathomably stupid.

Also, Hammon has to be incredibly dumb to do what she did. She's worked in professional, corporate environments for years. She made an inexcusable error that simply can't happen, and if you make that mistake from a major position of authority/power, your career might just be done (if it isn't, Hammon becomes a MASSIVE employment risk to keep around).

Yeah I mean it's disappointing Hammon went this route so full force, but it points to a systemic issue with the Aces. It's win at all costs, including breaking any rules or people that may get in the way. A culture of align or get punished is less military and more cultish. No I don't literally mean a cult. But this case clearly swerves away from discipline and putting yourself on the line for the best of the group to you got pregnant (was it on purpose?!) and so GTFO. The one shapes the person; the other ignores and erases the person. It's gross.

Right.

Winning shouldn't come at the expense of integrity and common human decency. This is the part where I'm just like what the hell is wrong with them?

I dunno. I feel like treating a pregnant person like that crosses a massive red line that no one should cross. Regardless of gender.

Dearica getting pregnant isn't anyone's business but her own and her partner's. That question about her taking precautions....bro thats none of your business!! She shouldn't be bullied or punished for being a mother. The only acceptable response in my opinion should be

"Hey, how can we help you? Do you need anything? Don't worry, we are here for you."

Becky failed here as a leader, a coach, and as a person. You don't do that to anyone.

This is beyond an issue of human decency, integrity, respect, etc. Hammon broke the law.

[sikma42]

Yeah I mean it's disappointing Hammon went this route so full force, but it points to a systemic issue with the Aces. It's win at all costs, including breaking any rules or people that may get in the way. A culture of align or get punished is less military and more cultish. No I don't literally mean a cult. But this case clearly swerves away from discipline and putting yourself on the line for the best of the group to you got pregnant (was it on purpose?!) and so GTFO. The one shapes the person; the other ignores and erases the person. It's gross.

Right.

Winning shouldn't come at the expense of integrity and common human decency. This is the part where I'm just like what the hell is wrong with them?

I dunno. I feel like treating a pregnant person like that crosses a massive red line that no one should cross. Regardless of gender.

Dearica getting pregnant isn't anyone's business but her own and her partner's. That question about her taking precautions....bro thats none of your business!! She shouldn't be bullied or punished for being a mother. The only acceptable response in my opinion should be

"Hey, how can we help you? Do you need anything? Don't worry, we are here for you."

Becky failed here as a leader, a coach, and as a person. You don't do that to anyone.

This is beyond an issue of human decency, integrity, respect, etc. Hammon broke the law.

This. If what she states is true, its clear employment discrimination.

I haven’t been able to root for the Aces since I heard about this last year. They need to make an example of this team. Only issue is they are now complicit bc they investigated and gave them a smack on the wrist.

Will be very interesting to watch and I hope Hamby doesn’t settle.


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[Doctor MJ]

I accept that at highest levels of competition, leaders are hard asses, even a-holes. Manu said as much to Pop's face in that post 2014 retrospective when they, alongside Timmy and Tony, were reminiscing in a gym about that historic championship.

But there is a line, and in my mind it's doing something the right way. Pop, for instance, cut SJax from the team before the playoffs. I mean, think about the implications for the person behind the player. SJax is still bitter about it. But it was best for the team, and nobody got sued as it was well within a team's right to do so.

The issue with Hammon and Aces is the working around murky laws and systematically erasing Hamby which point to intent not negligence or ignorance. That is wholly different and tiers below simple aholeness into 'I'm protected, and you can't touch me for doing this' territory.

It's kind of insidious, especially for someone who is a Mom herself (even though legally that has nothing to do with it).

Anyway, it just really rubs me the wrong way, again.

GREY first thank you for your response. This is a sensitive issue and so emotions aren't just a reality, they have to be considered in the solution. I'm hoping I don't come across as antagonistic to folks here.

You write a lot that makes sense to me, but I wonder if you could elaborate specifically on the bold. What does "erasure" mean in this context?

[eminence]

Are there any other articles going into more detail?

Other than the under the table stuff I'm struggling to see an angle where what happened was illegal - maybe there are more details on how Hamby was treated after sharing her pregnancy that I'm missing in this article?

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly Hammon should be fired and blackballed from the league. Whether there is official WNBA policy in place or not in this case is completely irrelevant, literally does not apply whatsoever here as this is a clear cut employment discrimination case and any good employment law firm is going to EVISCERATE the WNBA and the Aces. Literally any competent basic HR department in corporate America would have jettisoned Hammon into the sun when they first caught wind of this happening and they would have settled on top of that. The fact that the WNBA has let it escalate to this point is such an immense failing of their legal department and decision making of the league office. Unfathomably stupid.

Also, Hammon has to be incredibly dumb to do what she did. She's worked in professional, corporate environments for years. She made an inexcusable error that simply can't happen, and if you make that mistake from a major position of authority/power, your career might just be done (if it isn't, Hammon becomes a MASSIVE employment risk to keep around).

Is it a clear cut employment discrimination case? Can you spell it out for me why, because this is clearly central to the lawsuit, and I'm not sure I understand.

My basic understanding is this:

1. Hamby alleges that there was an under-the-table aspect of her contract that later got reneged. If this is true and there's proof, the Aces (franchise & individuals involved) should be punished in accordance with how NBA teams have been punished before. Seems pretty straight forward.

2. Hamby alleges verbal and psychological abuse. If this is true and there's proof, the Aces should be punish in accordance, etc. etc.

3. I'm sure Hamby alleges lies and cover up. If this is true and there's proof, etc.

That stuff seems straight forward to me.

But when I read this:

The world champion Aces exiled Dearica Hamby for becoming pregnant

I think, you mean they traded a player because they were trying to get better? Yeah, that's what franchises always do in all major sports leagues.

And that's the thing: It just seems implausible to argue that the team who a) was about to acquire Candace Parker, and b) become the GOAT WNBA RS team (until when Parker went down) wasn't focused on getting better with their moves.

Now maybe they can find something in writing where Hammon explicitly says that she wants Hamby gone because of the pregnancy, and to the extent specific bloody handprints are found, it would make sense to me that this particular claim goes to trial.

But big picture: The idea that you are liable for damage to the reputation of the player you've decided you're better off trading seems like an extremely problematic precedent given that trades typically do damage the reputation of at least one of the parties involved in some way.

Are we really going to start factoring that in now when it's been the norm to allow it in all major sports leagues for well over a century?

I'd have to advise against that, and if that seems unfair to the athletes, please keep in mind that "employment discrimination" is typically applied for wrongful termination - meaning you're no longer getting paid, and if there's a contract it's being illegally reneged upon. But we're not talking about that. The contract is going to be paid as it was put on paper.

We should also keep in mind that there's a reason why "No Trade Clauses" are something that has to be explicitly negotiated for by the player. The expectation is always that you can trade any other players unless there's specific condition in play as set out by the CBA.

[G R E Y]

I accept that at highest levels of competition, leaders are hard asses, even a-holes. Manu said as much to Pop's face in that post 2014 retrospective when they, alongside Timmy and Tony, were reminiscing in a gym about that historic championship.

But there is a line, and in my mind it's doing something the right way. Pop, for instance, cut SJax from the team before the playoffs. I mean, think about the implications for the person behind the player. SJax is still bitter about it. But it was best for the team, and nobody got sued as it was well within a team's right to do so.

The issue with Hammon and Aces is the working around murky laws and systematically erasing Hamby which point to intent not negligence or ignorance. That is wholly different and tiers below simple aholeness into 'I'm protected, and you can't touch me for doing this' territory.

It's kind of insidious, especially for someone who is a Mom herself (even though legally that has nothing to do with it).

Anyway, it just really rubs me the wrong way, again.

GREY first thank you for your response. This is a sensitive issue and so emotions aren't just a reality, they have to be considered in the solution. I'm hoping I don't come across as antagonistic to folks here.

You write a lot that makes sense to me, but I wonder if you could elaborate specifically on the bold. What does "erasure" mean in this context?

Hey, appreciate it, thanks. If you go to the first page of this thread, one of my posts has several tweets from a poster who highlighted certain Aces practices from the suit towards Hamwby that she alleges were a wholesale erasure (not sure of the exact word, but that was the alleged effect) of her from the team. There's a a list of things done in the lawsuit. I believe one of the tweets addresses it (I can't see tweets on my cell, just the link, so I can't isolate it right now). Hope that helps.

EDIT: This is one of them:

Read on Twitter

Erasure is my word. Suit refers to these as alleged discriminatory practices ie/ telling staff to cease comms with Hamby, removing her child from jumbo screen. Latter may seem like such a minor point as to be a bit of a petty reach, but the counter view may be, oh look at the detailed extent team went to in order to remove all signs of or associations to Hamby.

[sikma42]

Are there any other articles going into more detail?

Other than the under the table stuff I'm struggling to see an angle where what happened was illegal - maybe there are more details on how Hamby was treated after sharing her pregnancy that I'm missing in this article?

Hamby says the following. It’s also laid out pretty clearly in the compliant.

- kicked her out of team housing
- did not provide grant to school to continue education
- traded her
- instructed staff not to feature daughter during Sparks games

Kicking her out of team housing is enough by itself. At that point, the damages are going to psychological and punitive.

This is also assuming the discovery doesn’t uncover other patterns of retaliation and hostile work environment. Based on Hammonds personality, I’ll be shocked if something was cough in email/text or someone speaks up.


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[Doctor MJ]

I accept that at highest levels of competition, leaders are hard asses, even a-holes. Manu said as much to Pop's face in that post 2014 retrospective when they, alongside Timmy and Tony, were reminiscing in a gym about that historic championship.

But there is a line, and in my mind it's doing something the right way. Pop, for instance, cut SJax from the team before the playoffs. I mean, think about the implications for the person behind the player. SJax is still bitter about it. But it was best for the team, and nobody got sued as it was well within a team's right to do so.

The issue with Hammon and Aces is the working around murky laws and systematically erasing Hamby which point to intent not negligence or ignorance. That is wholly different and tiers below simple aholeness into 'I'm protected, and you can't touch me for doing this' territory.

It's kind of insidious, especially for someone who is a Mom herself (even though legally that has nothing to do with it).

Anyway, it just really rubs me the wrong way, again.

GREY first thank you for your response. This is a sensitive issue and so emotions aren't just a reality, they have to be considered in the solution. I'm hoping I don't come across as antagonistic to folks here.

You write a lot that makes sense to me, but I wonder if you could elaborate specifically on the bold. What does "erasure" mean in this context?

Hey, appreciate it, thanks. If you go to the first page of this thread, one of my posts has several tweets from a poster who highlighted certain Aces practices from the suit towards Hamwby that she alleges were a wholesale erasure (not sure of the exact word, but that was the alleged effect) of her from the team. There's a a list of things done in the lawsuit. I believe one of the tweets addresses it (I can't see tweets on my cell, just the link, so I can't isolate it right now). Hope that helps.

EDIT: This is one of them:

Read on Twitter

Erasure is my word. Suit refers to these as alleged discriminatory practices ie/ telling staff to cease comms with Hamby, removing her child from jumbo screen. Latter may seem like such a minor point as to be a bit of a petty reach, but the counter view may be, oh look at the detailed extent team went to in order to remove all signs of or associations to Hamby.

Okay, so I think what you're specifically focusing on here that feels like it might be "erasure" to meincludes a) officially ceasing communications with her, b) not including her in White House visit, and c) not putting her daughter on camera any more. If I'm totally off-base please let me know. If there's more, feel free to let me know that as well.

So here's the thing: (a) and (c) seem like pretty typical corporate policy once the relationship with a former employee turns antagonistic in the name of self-protection for the organization. I don't like it, but I wouldn't interpret that as retribution necessarily.

(b) is of course the type of thing totally outside of corporate norms. I don't think there's any doubt that the classy thing to do would have been to include the Hamby, and you have to wonder if pettiness played a role in not including her.

I do think though we need to keep in mind the timeline here. This was months after her trade to the Sparks which was when she began alleging unethical behavior on the Aces. This makes a White House visit together something frankly that might be seen as a moment to walk on egg shells rather than a time of celebration. I thus completely understand why the Aces might decide it that given the state of their relationship with their former player, it would be best not to include her.

As always: Not saying it's right, only that it's not necessarily something done specifically to harm the other party.

Also always: With the right specific evidence, the case against Hammon & the Aces violating laws and rules would naturally become clear cut, and so in no way am I assuming innocence on the part of the Aces.

But I have to acknowledge a continued feeling of consequences that seem pretty plausible through no specific evil intent when a) a player gets traded, and b) they begin making public allegations against their former team.

[eminence]

Are there any other articles going into more detail?

Other than the under the table stuff I'm struggling to see an angle where what happened was illegal - maybe there are more details on how Hamby was treated after sharing her pregnancy that I'm missing in this article?

Hamby says the following. It’s also laid out pretty clearly in the compliant.

- kicked her out of team housing
- did not provide grant to school to continue education
- traded her
- instructed staff not to feature daughter during Sparks games

Kicking her out of team housing is enough by itself. At that point, the damages are going to psychological and punitive.

This is also assuming the discovery doesn’t uncover other patterns of retaliation and hostile work environment. Based on Hammonds personality, I’ll be shocked if something was cough in email/text or someone speaks up.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The first two fall into the under the table stuff, yep, super illegal. Likely for both parties - Hamby and the Aces broadly, but seem unlikely to have much to do with Hammon who seems to be the most called out person in this thread - having your head coach be in charge of or even involved with your under the table negotiations and their enforcement seems beyond stupid, she's a hooper/coach, not a lawyer or accountant.

Trading her being illegal would a huge paradigm shift on the way we've done sports for a very long time. Could no player with a notable medical condition be traded? Could no player be traded at all?

The last one is certainly not illegal, petty absolutely.

[G R E Y]

GREY first thank you for your response. This is a sensitive issue and so emotions aren't just a reality, they have to be considered in the solution. I'm hoping I don't come across as antagonistic to folks here.

You write a lot that makes sense to me, but I wonder if you could elaborate specifically on the bold. What does "erasure" mean in this context?

Hey, appreciate it, thanks. If you go to the first page of this thread, one of my posts has several tweets from a poster who highlighted certain Aces practices from the suit towards Hamwby that she alleges were a wholesale erasure (not sure of the exact word, but that was the alleged effect) of her from the team. There's a a list of things done in the lawsuit. I believe one of the tweets addresses it (I can't see tweets on my cell, just the link, so I can't isolate it right now). Hope that helps.

EDIT: This is one of them:

Read on Twitter

Erasure is my word. Suit refers to these as alleged discriminatory practices ie/ telling staff to cease comms with Hamby, removing her child from jumbo screen. Latter may seem like such a minor point as to be a bit of a petty reach, but the counter view may be, oh look at the detailed extent team went to in order to remove all signs of or associations to Hamby.

Okay, so I think what you're specifically focusing on here that feels like it might be "erasure" to meincludes a) officially ceasing communications with her, b) not including her in White House visit, and c) not putting her daughter on camera any more. If I'm totally off-base please let me know. If there's more, feel free to let me know that as well.

So here's the thing: (a) and (c) seem like pretty typical corporate policy once the relationship with a former employee turns antagonistic in the name of self-protection for the organization. I don't like it, but I wouldn't interpret that as retribution necessarily.

(b) is of course the type of thing totally outside of corporate norms. I don't think there's any doubt that the classy thing to do would have been to include the Hamby, and you have to wonder if pettiness played a role in not including her.

I do think though we need to keep in mind the timeline here. This was months after her trade to the Sparks which was when she began alleging unethical behavior on the Aces. This makes a White House visit together something frankly that might be seen as a moment to walk on egg shells rather than a time of celebration. I thus completely understand why the Aces might decide it that given the state of their relationship with their former player, it would be best not to include her.

As always: Not saying it's right, only that it's not necessarily something done specifically to harm the other party.

Also always: With the right specific evidence, the case against Hammon & the Aces violating laws and rules would naturally become clear cut, and so in no way am I assuming innocence on the part of the Aces.

But I have to acknowledge a continued feeling of consequences that seem pretty plausible through no specific evil intent when a) a player gets traded, and b) they begin making public allegations against their former team.

Sure, it's at an allegation stage and so no ruling has yet been made. Also, I've not read the entire lawsuit. But after initial findings and consequences doled out by WNBA to Aces and Hammon that this was still filed means a lot was left undealt with. Of course the nature of the suit is one sided and it sounds like bad exposure. The other side has yet to respond. All quiet there. So far. We'll see how things progress.

[Doctor MJ]

Are there any other articles going into more detail?

Other than the under the table stuff I'm struggling to see an angle where what happened was illegal - maybe there are more details on how Hamby was treated after sharing her pregnancy that I'm missing in this article?

Hamby says the following. It’s also laid out pretty clearly in the compliant.

- kicked her out of team housing
- did not provide grant to school to continue education
- traded her
- instructed staff not to feature daughter during Sparks games

Kicking her out of team housing is enough by itself. At that point, the damages are going to psychological and punitive.

This is also assuming the discovery doesn’t uncover other patterns of retaliation and hostile work environment. Based on Hammonds personality, I’ll be shocked if something was cough in email/text or someone speaks up.


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So the first two are the things that concern me.

First: To the extent that the Aces were providing under-the-table benefits, the WNBA clearly needs to have rules about this, and so hopefully they punish the Aces based on those rules at the very least.

Second: The details of that "kicked out of team housing" are critical to me. If we're talking about security escorting a pregnant woman and her daughter off-the-premises like they were under arrest, this is obviously a HUGE issue which Hamby should be massively compensated for.

To elaborate a little bit on the 4th though:

Don't you think it's a little inappropriate to purposefully put on camera the young child of an adult who has publicly alleged abusive relationship? I mean, couldn't you just as easily sue because they filmed your daughter without your explicit consent?

This is what I mean by corporations protecting themselves. They become more inhuman when they fear that acting humane will leave them vulnerable to further allegations. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, but it's not necessarily intended as retaliation.

[sikma42]

Are there any other articles going into more detail?

Other than the under the table stuff I'm struggling to see an angle where what happened was illegal - maybe there are more details on how Hamby was treated after sharing her pregnancy that I'm missing in this article?

Hamby says the following. It’s also laid out pretty clearly in the compliant.

- kicked her out of team housing
- did not provide grant to school to continue education
- traded her
- instructed staff not to feature daughter during Sparks games

Kicking her out of team housing is enough by itself. At that point, the damages are going to psychological and punitive.

This is also assuming the discovery doesn’t uncover other patterns of retaliation and hostile work environment. Based on Hammonds personality, I’ll be shocked if something was cough in email/text or someone speaks up.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The first two fall into the under the table stuff, yep, super illegal. Likely for both parties - Hamby and the Aces broadly, but seem unlikely to have much to do with Hammon who seems to be the most called out person in this thread - having your head coach be in charge of or even involved with your under the table negotiations and their enforcement seems beyond stupid, she's a hooper/coach, not a lawyer or accountant.

Trading her being illegal would a huge paradigm shift on the way we've done sports for a very long time. Could no player with a notable medical condition be traded? Could no player be traded at all?

The last one is certainly not illegal, petty absolutely.

Whether or not the benefit is “illegal” (which relates to the CBA) does not change whether it is in violation of state and federal employment law. All that matters is that she received a benefit and it was taken away for a prohibited reason.

Putting on my law school hat from many moons ago. But that’s just may take, as someone with a tiny bit of background in employment law.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[eminence]

Hamby says the following. It’s also laid out pretty clearly in the compliant.

- kicked her out of team housing
- did not provide grant to school to continue education
- traded her
- instructed staff not to feature daughter during Sparks games

Kicking her out of team housing is enough by itself. At that point, the damages are going to psychological and punitive.

This is also assuming the discovery doesn’t uncover other patterns of retaliation and hostile work environment. Based on Hammonds personality, I’ll be shocked if something was cough in email/text or someone speaks up.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The first two fall into the under the table stuff, yep, super illegal. Likely for both parties - Hamby and the Aces broadly, but seem unlikely to have much to do with Hammon who seems to be the most called out person in this thread - having your head coach be in charge of or even involved with your under the table negotiations and their enforcement seems beyond stupid, she's a hooper/coach, not a lawyer or accountant.

Trading her being illegal would a huge paradigm shift on the way we've done sports for a very long time. Could no player with a notable medical condition be traded? Could no player be traded at all?

The last one is certainly not illegal, petty absolutely.

Whether or not the benefit is “illegal” (which relates to the CBA) does not change whether it is in violation of state and federal employment law. All that matters is that she received a benefit and it was taken away for a prohibited reason.

Putting on my law school hat from many moons ago. But that’s just may take, as someone with a tiny bit of background in employment law.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I wasn't thinking of illegality relating to the CBA but in terms of tax reporting with the employer-provided housing, the non-'donation' to the school, and other under the table benefits, of which it seems likely there were more that were fulfilled based off the filing.

But anywho, still fully on board that the housing/school issues are illegal.

[mattg]

Honestly Hammon should be fired and blackballed from the league. Whether there is official WNBA policy in place or not in this case is completely irrelevant, literally does not apply whatsoever here as this is a clear cut employment discrimination case and any good employment law firm is going to EVISCERATE the WNBA and the Aces. Literally any competent basic HR department in corporate America would have jettisoned Hammon into the sun when they first caught wind of this happening and they would have settled on top of that. The fact that the WNBA has let it escalate to this point is such an immense failing of their legal department and decision making of the league office. Unfathomably stupid.

Also, Hammon has to be incredibly dumb to do what she did. She's worked in professional, corporate environments for years. She made an inexcusable error that simply can't happen, and if you make that mistake from a major position of authority/power, your career might just be done (if it isn't, Hammon becomes a MASSIVE employment risk to keep around).

Is it a clear cut employment discrimination case? Can you spell it out for me why, because this is clearly central to the lawsuit, and I'm not sure I understand.

My basic understanding is this:

1. Hamby alleges that there was an under-the-table aspect of her contract that later got reneged. If this is true and there's proof, the Aces (franchise & individuals involved) should be punished in accordance with how NBA teams have been punished before. Seems pretty straight forward.

2. Hamby alleges verbal and psychological abuse. If this is true and there's proof, the Aces should be punish in accordance, etc. etc.

3. I'm sure Hamby alleges lies and cover up. If this is true and there's proof, etc.

That stuff seems straight forward to me.

But when I read this:

The world champion Aces exiled Dearica Hamby for becoming pregnant

I think, you mean they traded a player because they were trying to get better? Yeah, that's what franchises always do in all major sports leagues.

And that's the thing: It just seems implausible to argue that the team who a) was about to acquire Candace Parker, and b) become the GOAT WNBA RS team (until when Parker went down) wasn't focused on getting better with their moves.

Now maybe they can find something in writing where Hammon explicitly says that she wants Hamby gone because of the pregnancy, and to the extent specific bloody handprints are found, it would make sense to me that this particular claim goes to trial.

But big picture: The idea that you are liable for damage to the reputation of the player you've decided you're better off trading seems like an extremely problematic precedent given that trades typically do damage the reputation of at least one of the parties involved in some way.

Are we really going to start factoring that in now when it's been the norm to allow it in all major sports leagues for well over a century?

I'd have to advise against that, and if that seems unfair to the athletes, please keep in mind that "employment discrimination" is typically applied for wrongful termination - meaning you're no longer getting paid, and if there's a contract it's being illegally reneged upon. But we're not talking about that. The contract is going to be paid as it was put on paper.

We should also keep in mind that there's a reason why "No Trade Clauses" are something that has to be explicitly negotiated for by the player. The expectation is always that you can trade any other players unless there's specific condition in play as set out by the CBA.

I think you're too caught up on optics/semantics of the situation and/or rules of the WNBA or CBA and are missing the forest for the trees to be honest.

1. CBA is completely irrelevant here. For example, if Hamby was compensated in some way (let's say free team housing) whether it was under the table (and illegal under the WNBA rules or not) but then the Aces revoked that compensation because they learned of her pregnancy it would be a title VII civil rights violation and illegal. This is likely to be the easiest thing to prove in this case.

Further, if the way things played out is that Hamby told the Aces she was pregnant and then they traded her, which she alleges as discriminatory and retaliatory, it doesn't matter if the Aces were doing so under guise to "improve the team" as you say. Because Hamby's pregnancy didn't affect her ability to perform her job duties as she missed no portion of the season it becomes an issue of her being retaliated against for conduct not detrimental to job performance and due to being a member of a protected class, in this case you could make arguments for all of gender, being pregnant, or sexual orientation. Additionally, if there is even a single email or text mentioning Hamby being pregnant or something pertaining to that and wanting to trade her then the Aces and the WNBA are buried. (which is why the fact that the WNBA did such a non-investigation and let this escalate is SOOOOO stupid).

On top of that, if those things can be proven in addition to the retaliatory behavior by the Aces post-trade, you could then add in potential hostile workplace allegations levied at the WNBA itself.

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly Hammon should be fired and blackballed from the league. Whether there is official WNBA policy in place or not in this case is completely irrelevant, literally does not apply whatsoever here as this is a clear cut employment discrimination case and any good employment law firm is going to EVISCERATE the WNBA and the Aces. Literally any competent basic HR department in corporate America would have jettisoned Hammon into the sun when they first caught wind of this happening and they would have settled on top of that. The fact that the WNBA has let it escalate to this point is such an immense failing of their legal department and decision making of the league office. Unfathomably stupid.

Also, Hammon has to be incredibly dumb to do what she did. She's worked in professional, corporate environments for years. She made an inexcusable error that simply can't happen, and if you make that mistake from a major position of authority/power, your career might just be done (if it isn't, Hammon becomes a MASSIVE employment risk to keep around).

Is it a clear cut employment discrimination case? Can you spell it out for me why, because this is clearly central to the lawsuit, and I'm not sure I understand.

My basic understanding is this:

1. Hamby alleges that there was an under-the-table aspect of her contract that later got reneged. If this is true and there's proof, the Aces (franchise & individuals involved) should be punished in accordance with how NBA teams have been punished before. Seems pretty straight forward.

2. Hamby alleges verbal and psychological abuse. If this is true and there's proof, the Aces should be punish in accordance, etc. etc.

3. I'm sure Hamby alleges lies and cover up. If this is true and there's proof, etc.

That stuff seems straight forward to me.

But when I read this:

The world champion Aces exiled Dearica Hamby for becoming pregnant

I think, you mean they traded a player because they were trying to get better? Yeah, that's what franchises always do in all major sports leagues.

And that's the thing: It just seems implausible to argue that the team who a) was about to acquire Candace Parker, and b) become the GOAT WNBA RS team (until when Parker went down) wasn't focused on getting better with their moves.

Now maybe they can find something in writing where Hammon explicitly says that she wants Hamby gone because of the pregnancy, and to the extent specific bloody handprints are found, it would make sense to me that this particular claim goes to trial.

But big picture: The idea that you are liable for damage to the reputation of the player you've decided you're better off trading seems like an extremely problematic precedent given that trades typically do damage the reputation of at least one of the parties involved in some way.

Are we really going to start factoring that in now when it's been the norm to allow it in all major sports leagues for well over a century?

I'd have to advise against that, and if that seems unfair to the athletes, please keep in mind that "employment discrimination" is typically applied for wrongful termination - meaning you're no longer getting paid, and if there's a contract it's being illegally reneged upon. But we're not talking about that. The contract is going to be paid as it was put on paper.

We should also keep in mind that there's a reason why "No Trade Clauses" are something that has to be explicitly negotiated for by the player. The expectation is always that you can trade any other players unless there's specific condition in play as set out by the CBA.

I think you're too caught up on optics/semantics of the situation and/or rules of the WNBA or CBA and are missing the forest for the trees to be honest.

1. CBA is completely irrelevant here. For example, if Hamby was compensated in some way (let's say free team housing) whether it was under the table (and illegal under the WNBA rules or not) but then the Aces revoked that compensation because they learned of her pregnancy it would be a title VII civil rights violation and illegal. This is likely to be the easiest thing to prove in this case.

The CBA is relevant when we're talking about whether, say, it's against the rules to trade a pregnant player. Some things should have been very simple to spell out and so to the extent the WNBA didn't do so, it's on them.

As stated previously, just because the I say "it's on" the WNBA, doesn't mean I'm saying Hammon or anyone else is absolved of all behavior, but if simply trading a player while pregnant was going to get a team successfully sued, the WNBA should have made that clear in policy because otherwise there's really no precedent that I'm aware of that prohibits contract trades, and coaches/GMs are literally hired to make their team win with the rules as they've been laid out.

But I agree with you that the CBA is not the only concern when talking about under-the-table benefits.

Further, if the way things played out is that Hamby told the Aces she was pregnant and then they traded her, which she alleges as discriminatory and retaliatory, it doesn't matter if the Aces were doing so under guise to "improve the team" as you say. Because Hamby's pregnancy didn't affect her ability to perform her job duties as she missed no portion of the season it becomes an issue of her being retaliated against for conduct not detrimental to job performance and due to being a member of a protected class, in this case you could make arguments for all of gender, being pregnant, or sexual orientation. Additionally, if there is even a single email or text mentioning Hamby being pregnant or something pertaining to that and wanting to trade her then the Aces and the WNBA are buried. (which is why the fact that the WNBA did such a non-investigation and let this escalate is SOOOOO stupid).

On top of that, if those things can be proven in addition to the retaliatory behavior by the Aces post-trade, you could then add in potential hostile workplace allegations levied at the WNBA itself.

Re: "if Hamby told the Aces she was pregnant and then they traded her". Well, I think that's clear cut the order of the event, but it doesn't prove that the one caused the other.

Keep in mind that we're talking about a timeline that's something like:

August 2022 - Hamby tells Aces she's pregnant
January 2023 - Aces trade Hamby; sign Candace Parker

While it's very plausible that they were looking to trade away Hamby the moment they were informed of her pregnancy, the fact it didn't happen for many months afterward, and then was only done as part of maneuvering to get another star on the team. If that's all the information there's direct evidence for, then that's really not enough, because January seems like it would make sense regardless of the pregnancy.

As I say: Different if they have proof, but if they don't, it's a non-starter based on the history of sports trades.

Re: "pregnancy didn't affect her ability to perform her job duties". Well first, my understanding is that the Aces are denying the pregnancy was the reason she was traded, so right there it really becomes a question of what evidence there is that the Aces are lying. If they get caught in lies, there should certainly be punishments.

Second: The reality is that we can't actually say definitively that a pregnancy didn't affect ability to perform. Just because a player shows up doesn't mean they're playing up to their capacity. And this is why there should be a clear cut rule about trading pregnant players, because even when there's a perfectly good basketball explanation (Candace Parker), there's ample reason to believe that any team would consider a pregnancy a damage to their asset. They'll never say so publicly if their smart, but we should assume that they're all thinking it.

Re: "retaliatory behavior post-trade". This is a place where we really need to know the details. As I've alluded to, there's stuff being alleged that if true would absolutely make me side legally against the Aces...but there's also stuff being alleged as retaliation that I don't think was retaliation, and there's damage to Hamby's brand that was simply unavoidable given that her long-time franchise decided to build in another direction.

[sikma42]

The CBA is relevant when we're talking about whether, say, it's against the rules to trade a pregnant player. Some things should have been very simple to spell out and so to the extent the WNBA didn't do so, it's on them.

As stated previously, just because the I say "it's on" the WNBA, doesn't mean I'm saying Hammon or anyone else is absolved of all behavior, but if simply trading a player while pregnant was going to get a team successfully sued, the WNBA should have made that clear in policy because otherwise there's really no precedent that I'm aware of that prohibits contract trades, and coaches/GMs are literally hired to make their team win with the rules as they've been laid out.

But I agree with you that the CBA is not the only concern when talking about under-the-table benefits.

I think this is getting bogged down in the CBA talk

Relevant law is always in play. You can't just put a clause in the CBA that violates employment law and then rely on it when challenged. WNBA and the Aces understand basic employment law and its clear you can't take retaliatory action based on pregnancy status.

Looks pretty bad imo and guess we'll see