Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA

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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#61 » by mattg » Sun Aug 18, 2024 11:52 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:

The CBA is relevant when we're talking about whether, say, it's against the rules to trade a pregnant player. Some things should have been very simple to spell out and so to the extent the WNBA didn't do so, it's on them.

As stated previously, just because the I say "it's on" the WNBA, doesn't mean I'm saying Hammon or anyone else is absolved of all behavior, but if simply trading a player while pregnant was going to get a team successfully sued, the WNBA should have made that clear in policy because otherwise there's really no precedent that I'm aware of that prohibits contract trades, and coaches/GMs are literally hired to make their team win with the rules as they've been laid out.

But I agree with you that the CBA is not the only concern when talking about under-the-table benefits.


Re: "if Hamby told the Aces she was pregnant and then they traded her". Well, I think that's clear cut the order of the event, but it doesn't prove that the one caused the other.

Keep in mind that we're talking about a timeline that's something like:

August 2022 - Hamby tells Aces she's pregnant
January 2023 - Aces trade Hamby; sign Candace Parker

While it's very plausible that they were looking to trade away Hamby the moment they were informed of her pregnancy, the fact it didn't happen for many months afterward, and then was only done as part of maneuvering to get another star on the team. If that's all the information there's direct evidence for, then that's really not enough, because January seems like it would make sense regardless of the pregnancy.

As I say: Different if they have proof, but if they don't, it's a non-starter based on the history of sports trades.

Re: "pregnancy didn't affect her ability to perform her job duties". Well first, my understanding is that the Aces are denying the pregnancy was the reason she was traded, so right there it really becomes a question of what evidence there is that the Aces are lying. If they get caught in lies, there should certainly be punishments.

Second: The reality is that we can't actually say definitively that a pregnancy didn't affect ability to perform. Just because a player shows up doesn't mean they're playing up to their capacity. And this is why there should be a clear cut rule about trading pregnant players, because even when there's a perfectly good basketball explanation (Candace Parker), there's ample reason to believe that any team would consider a pregnancy a damage to their asset. They'll never say so publicly if their smart, but we should assume that they're all thinking it.

Again, your fixation on the CBA is completely misguided and meaningless. IT IS IRRELEVANT in this case. These are federal laws we are talking about here, a private corporation such as the WNBA cannot simply put provisions or rules in their CBA that violate federal employment laws. And even the idea of having the type of policy you are suggesting simply existing with what teams could or couldn't do wrt pregnant players would likely be a violation of title VII by itself.

Again, you keep focusing on optics for some reason, the timeline is irrelevant. If the WNBA does not immediately settle, then Hamby's lawyers are going to subpoena all team communications. That means every single email exchanged, if front office has a work phone or get reimbursed to use their personal phone for work they can subpoena text messages exchanged between employees, they will interview all sorts of staff members and players, and turn everything upside down. This is likely where the CBA actually matters as I'm sure the Aces committed all sorts of violations under the table (and some could potentially be actual crimes too depending on tax stuff or accounting practices). But again, the timeline with pregnancy announcement and trade time won't matter because there's going to be something found in the communications if things get to that point.

AND OF COURSE THE ACES ARE DENYING THEY TRADED HER BECAUSE SHE WAS PREGNANT :lol: :lol: If they were to admit that then the case is just over and done with and they are guilty.

With your last paragraph, you are not understanding what conduct detrimental to job performance means legally. You are focusing on how the player would produce in game which is how a basketball team would look at "performance", not the law. WNBA contracts do not stipulate that the player must sprint as hard as she can on defense, must grab 5 rebounds per game, must make 75% of her FTs, or anything like that. WNBA contracts stipulate that the player participate in all team activities, practices, and games, attend all team functions, participate in all functions mandated by the WNBA. So again, nothing you brought up is legally relevant here on the basis of how a pregnancy would affect Hamby's ability to perform her job. Of course teams are going to look at pregnant players differently and think about that all the time. The difference is you cannot act on those thoughts (without breaking the law) and even discussing them where it's documented in writing or anything would be an unfathomably stupid decision that could get you sued.

Now obviously everything hinges on being able to prove these things of course. But, considering the WNBA did an 'investigation" where they did levy punishment I think it's obvious there is some level of provable impropriety that they are aware of, they just didn't think this would escalate. Attorney's are going to go hard questioning all the lower level administrative employees, current players, front office staff, former players, former front office staff, everybody. All it takes is one disgruntled employee, one former player or employee, one person who is scared of getting in trouble, or one person with strong morals and the WNBA and Aces are in serious ****.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#62 » by sikma42 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 12:57 am

Read on Twitter
?s=46

Hammond just commented on the lawsuit. Really says a lot more than I would expect. Showing a lot of hubris…


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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#63 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:31 am

sikma42 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
The CBA is relevant when we're talking about whether, say, it's against the rules to trade a pregnant player. Some things should have been very simple to spell out and so to the extent the WNBA didn't do so, it's on them.

As stated previously, just because the I say "it's on" the WNBA, doesn't mean I'm saying Hammon or anyone else is absolved of all behavior, but if simply trading a player while pregnant was going to get a team successfully sued, the WNBA should have made that clear in policy because otherwise there's really no precedent that I'm aware of that prohibits contract trades, and coaches/GMs are literally hired to make their team win with the rules as they've been laid out.

But I agree with you that the CBA is not the only concern when talking about under-the-table benefits.



I think this is getting bogged down in the CBA talk

Relevant law is always in play. You can't just put a clause in the CBA that violates employment law and then rely on it when challenged. WNBA and the Aces understand basic employment law and its clear you can't take retaliatory action based on pregnancy status.

Looks pretty bad imo and guess we'll see


So, first, do you realize that here I'm a) ending the section agreeing with you with the intent to turn the page onto the main focus of my post, and b) this means you responded only to the part that was bogging things down? :wink:

Re: relevant law is always in play. Absolutely, and we'll see how that plays out.

Re: clear can't retaliatory.... so I think we need to stop right there because the question isn't whether the Aces had the right to be retaliatory, but whether what they did should be considered retaliatory.

As I've said: The notion that you can successfully sue - if that's how things go - a team for deciding not to keep you because it then as a known fact hurt your market value just seems such a divergence from how things have always been in pro sports leagues. The reason why players negotiate no-trade clauses is because they expect otherwise that they can be traded at any time. Not as a punishment, but as an asset.

And hey, I really don't know how things typically go with housing for players on a new team. I know though that there's certainly plenty of corporate housing available in Los Angeles, and so if the Sparks didn't offer to put Hamby up in such housing at least for a time, I think that's BS, and they should change how they operate.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#64 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:34 am

mattg wrote::lol: :lol:


Okay, I think I'm done here.

Please consider your tone in the future.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#65 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Aug 19, 2024 12:08 pm

sikma42 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=46

Hammond just commented on the lawsuit. Really says a lot more than I would expect. Showing a lot of hubris…


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If i were her lawyer, I would advise her to refrain from talking about an ongoing federal lawsuit in public, one where she has been named directly in it multiple times, but that's just me.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#66 » by Ice Man » Mon Aug 19, 2024 12:25 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:If i were her lawyer, I would advise her to refrain from talking about an ongoing federal lawsuit in public, one where she has been named directly in it multiple times, but that's just me.


Oh, I imagine that conversation has occurred. :)
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#67 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Aug 19, 2024 1:14 pm

sikma42 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
The CBA is relevant when we're talking about whether, say, it's against the rules to trade a pregnant player. Some things should have been very simple to spell out and so to the extent the WNBA didn't do so, it's on them.

As stated previously, just because the I say "it's on" the WNBA, doesn't mean I'm saying Hammon or anyone else is absolved of all behavior, but if simply trading a player while pregnant was going to get a team successfully sued, the WNBA should have made that clear in policy because otherwise there's really no precedent that I'm aware of that prohibits contract trades, and coaches/GMs are literally hired to make their team win with the rules as they've been laid out.

But I agree with you that the CBA is not the only concern when talking about under-the-table benefits.



I think this is getting bogged down in the CBA talk

Relevant law is always in play. You can't just put a clause in the CBA that violates employment law and then rely on it when challenged. WNBA and the Aces understand basic employment law and its clear you can't take retaliatory action based on pregnancy status.

Looks pretty bad imo and guess we'll see



Yeah this is where I stand. The Aces absolutely violated the CBA, and they were punished via losing their draft pick, but the fact that they might have violated federal law is the bigger issue.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#68 » by Ghetto Gospel » Mon Aug 19, 2024 2:07 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
sikma42 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=46

Hammond just commented on the lawsuit. Really says a lot more than I would expect. Showing a lot of hubris…


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If i were her lawyer, I would advise her to refrain from talking about an ongoing federal lawsuit in public, one where she has been named directly in it multiple times, but that's just me.


on one hand, you do have to defend yourself because you are getting cooked by everyone but on the other.. clearly hammon herself did something wrong though for her to get suspended and the aces to lose a pick
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#69 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Aug 19, 2024 2:47 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
sikma42 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=46

Hammond just commented on the lawsuit. Really says a lot more than I would expect. Showing a lot of hubris…


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app


If i were her lawyer, I would advise her to refrain from talking about an ongoing federal lawsuit in public, one where she has been named directly in it multiple times, but that's just me.


on one hand, you do have to defend yourself because you are getting cooked by everyone but on the other.. clearly hammon herself did something wrong though for her to get suspended and the aces to lose a pick


She has every right to defend herself, I agree. But it's not smart for her to say anything in public at this point.

Once the feds are involved, it's best for her to let her lawyers do the talking
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#70 » by theforumblue » Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:29 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
sikma42 wrote:
eminence wrote:Are there any other articles going into more detail?

Other than the under the table stuff I'm struggling to see an angle where what happened was illegal - maybe there are more details on how Hamby was treated after sharing her pregnancy that I'm missing in this article?

Hamby says the following. It’s also laid out pretty clearly in the compliant.

- kicked her out of team housing
- did not provide grant to school to continue education

- traded her
- instructed staff not to feature daughter during Sparks games

Kicking her out of team housing is enough by itself. At that point, the damages are going to psychological and punitive.

This is also assuming the discovery doesn’t uncover other patterns of retaliation and hostile work environment. Based on Hammonds personality, I’ll be shocked if something was cough in email/text or someone speaks up.


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So the first two are the things that concern me.


for the housing, i saw someone saying that there was another aces player around that same time who posted about leaving team housing because 'season ended'. kind of sound like that housing was for 'during the season', to help with children etc. if that's the case, then it might have been case of
1. misunderstanding by hamby on how housing works
2. miscommunication by team to housing staff that 'hamby is gonna get to stay longer wink wink'

but if that housing rule is already in place, or that video is around, that kinda of makes housing stuff moot.

the second thing about 'donation to school in lieu of tuition', i can also see how aces simply are really bad at doing under the table things and have trouble keeping up with who's supposed to do what for whom.

i'm not trying to say hamby is wrong on any or all accounts, i'm just trying to see what may or may not hold up in court. white house stuff, she was no longer on the team at that point. not sure what the etiquette is for that. ultimately i think it just comes down to her account of the phone convo with becky and if becky decides she's smarter than her lawyers or not.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#71 » by Ghetto Gospel » Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:32 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
If i were her lawyer, I would advise her to refrain from talking about an ongoing federal lawsuit in public, one where she has been named directly in it multiple times, but that's just me.


on one hand, you do have to defend yourself because you are getting cooked by everyone but on the other.. clearly hammon herself did something wrong though for her to get suspended and the aces to lose a pick


She has every right to defend herself, I agree. But it's not smart for her to say anything in public at this point.

Once the feds are involved, it's best for her to let her lawyers do the talking


i agree but court of public opinion matters too, i think she's dangerously close to losing her job if she doesn't defend herself adequately there. of course, once the feds get involved, her losing her job might be the least of her problems though i have no idea what the potential punishment here is.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#72 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:25 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
on one hand, you do have to defend yourself because you are getting cooked by everyone but on the other.. clearly hammon herself did something wrong though for her to get suspended and the aces to lose a pick


She has every right to defend herself, I agree. But it's not smart for her to say anything in public at this point.

Once the feds are involved, it's best for her to let her lawyers do the talking


i agree but court of public opinion matters too, i think she's dangerously close to losing her job if she doesn't defend herself adequately there. of course, once the feds get involved, her losing her job might be the least of her problems though i have no idea what the potential punishment here is.


The problem is that if she tries to win in the court of public opinion everything that she says can be admitted in federal court as evidence.

Again. Becky has every right to push back against these allegations. It's her right as a citizen, she is entitled to due process.

But man...I hate to say this, but I would advise her to just shut up and defer any questions to legal counsel.

I don't know if violating labor laws falls into felony territory but I wouldn't wanna find out either.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#73 » by Snotbubbles » Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:15 pm

theforumblue wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
sikma42 wrote:Hamby says the following. It’s also laid out pretty clearly in the compliant.

- kicked her out of team housing
- did not provide grant to school to continue education

- traded her
- instructed staff not to feature daughter during Sparks games

Kicking her out of team housing is enough by itself. At that point, the damages are going to psychological and punitive.

This is also assuming the discovery doesn’t uncover other patterns of retaliation and hostile work environment. Based on Hammonds personality, I’ll be shocked if something was cough in email/text or someone speaks up.


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So the first two are the things that concern me.


for the housing, i saw someone saying that there was another aces player around that same time who posted about leaving team housing because 'season ended'. kind of sound like that housing was for 'during the season', to help with children etc. if that's the case, then it might have been case of
1. misunderstanding by hamby on how housing works
2. miscommunication by team to housing staff that 'hamby is gonna get to stay longer wink wink'

but if that housing rule is already in place, or that video is around, that kinda of makes housing stuff moot.

the second thing about 'donation to school in lieu of tuition', i can also see how aces simply are really bad at doing under the table things and have trouble keeping up with who's supposed to do what for whom.

i'm not trying to say hamby is wrong on any or all accounts, i'm just trying to see what may or may not hold up in court. white house stuff, she was no longer on the team at that point. not sure what the etiquette is for that. ultimately i think it just comes down to her account of the phone convo with becky and if becky decides she's smarter than her lawyers or not.


Hammond will most likely outright deny Hamby's account of their phone conversations. I assume that the Aces had some legitimate business reasons to trade Hamby so unless there is some email where, therein, they admit that they're trading Hamby due to her pregnancy the details of the phone conversations will be nothing more than she said/she said. At that point, it becomes a who do you believe.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#74 » by Snotbubbles » Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:16 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
She has every right to defend herself, I agree. But it's not smart for her to say anything in public at this point.

Once the feds are involved, it's best for her to let her lawyers do the talking


i agree but court of public opinion matters too, i think she's dangerously close to losing her job if she doesn't defend herself adequately there. of course, once the feds get involved, her losing her job might be the least of her problems though i have no idea what the potential punishment here is.


The problem is that if she tries to win in the court of public opinion everything that she says can be admitted in federal court as evidence.

Again. Becky has every right to push back against these allegations. It's her right as a citizen, she is entitled to due process.

But man...I hate to say this, but I would advise her to just shut up and defer any questions to legal counsel.

I don't know if violating labor laws falls into felony territory but I wouldn't wanna find out either.


This is a civil case.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#75 » by Ito » Sun Aug 25, 2024 5:06 pm

what case she got its not like she got waived for being pregnant

she thought she would get more endorsements for being part of a winning team thats what she complaining about.. should be mad at the Sparks not the Aces lol I dont even know who that is
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#76 » by CIN-C-STAR » Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:06 pm

Why do people think trading a pregnant player violates federal labor laws?
Firing someone for being pregnant would, as would demoting them, but I’ve never heard of a law that says you can’t trade someone who’s contract says you can trade them, simply because they’re pregnant.
Does being pregnant nullify their contract? Because that would actually be a much worse situation for WNBA players.
As it stands now, she got every cent that was negotiated for in her contract, so I don’t see the problem really.
Seems like maybe just sour grapes because she didn’t want to be traded?
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#77 » by sikma42 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:19 pm

CIN-C-STAR wrote:Why do people think trading a pregnant player violates federal labor laws?
Firing someone for being pregnant would, as would demoting them, but I’ve never heard of a law that says you can’t trade someone who’s contract says you can trade them, simply because they’re pregnant.
Does being pregnant nullify their contract? Because that would actually be a much worse situation for WNBA players.
As it stands now, she got every cent that was negotiated for in her contract, so I don’t see the problem really.
Seems like maybe just sour grapes because she didn’t want to be traded?

So if a blk person is working at CashApp, someone can transfer them from CA to NY (similar markets) just because they dont want to be around black people. It’s super cool, just throw that rationale in an email bc it’s all above board.

There is a lot more to this lawsuit as well. But it’s crazy how much people side with management on this type of stuff. People reallly been drinking the company Kool-aid for too long.


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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#78 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:28 pm

CIN-C-STAR wrote:Why do people think trading a pregnant player violates federal labor laws?
Firing someone for being pregnant would, as would demoting them, but I’ve never heard of a law that says you can’t trade someone who’s contract says you can trade them, simply because they’re pregnant.
Does being pregnant nullify their contract? Because that would actually be a much worse situation for WNBA players.
As it stands now, she got every cent that was negotiated for in her contract, so I don’t see the problem really.
Seems like maybe just sour grapes because she didn’t want to be traded?


I see things similar to you. I really doubt that there's anything in the law that states that trading a contract is not allowed by federal labor laws. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected - I'm no expert - but in general these laws are there to protect people from poverty when they lose their source of income, and so I'd think as long as the contract was paid out, the employer should be fine.

As I've alluded to before: Doesn't mean the employer can literally abuse the employee, or can make under-the-table promises and then renege, but the idea that a trade itself counts as abuse is pretty weird to me as a sports fan.

Like, if the trade itself was a abuse, then aren't the Sparks abusers too since the trade wouldn't have happened if the Sparks hadn't decided to acquire her?

None of this means the Aces aren't guilty of abuse more broadly, but it seems like harassment behavior is getting coupled with standard major pro sports league practices.
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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#79 » by sikma42 » Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:52 pm

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Re: Dearica Hamby files Federal Lawsuit against Aces, WNBA 

Post#80 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Aug 26, 2024 12:57 am

sikma42 wrote:If people are actually interested in a breakdown of the case:

https://www.constangy.com/employment-labor-insider/pregnancy-lawsuit-against-wnba-aces-presents-host-of-legal-issues


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Good link. My hang up in a nutshell is here:

Has Ms. Hamby been harmed?

Generally speaking, a party can pursue a lawsuit only if they have been harmed by the defendant’s conduct. It is not immediately apparent that Ms. Hamby has in fact been harmed. She continues to play in the WNBA pursuant to the contract extension she signed in 2022 and has seemingly not lost the benefits of that contract.

She alleges that she was harmed by lost endorsement opportunities, because California imposes higher taxes than Nevada, and because she could not participate on the Aces’ 2023 championship team. More specifically, Ms. Hamby alleges that she had better marketing potential in Las Vegas contrasted with Los Angeles because the latter is a “far more saturated endorsement market.

Nevertheless, Ms. Hamby does not identify any prospective endorsement deals that she lost as a result of being traded.


To me, this is some disingenuous BS.

Like, can we really believe that any athlete came into the WNBA or any other league thinking they had a right to financial compensation whenever they got traded? Let alone someone who was on her 5 contract/extension in her WNBA career?

None of it means Hammon & co aren't liable for some other action, but throwing stuff in like this seems actually dangerous to sport.

In major sports leagues, teams have a right to trade your contract, and you have a right to still get paid based on that contract. That's how it's always been, and it will cause a lot of problems if this stops being allowed by the law.
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