Does CP3 have any argument as being better than Durant all time?

[LaLover11]

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

Pippen was a real point guard, he was just 6'8

Shrink him to be 6'3 and he would be called a starting Point Guard.

C'mon man

Pippen could do a little bit of everything but he wasnt a traditional point guard

I said "real" point guard not traditional

Pippen & LeBron are the modern point guards in 2024
There isn't anymore John Stockton's in the league

[MavsDirk41]

Pippen was a real point guard, he was just 6'8

Shrink him to be 6'3 and he would be called a starting Point Guard.

C'mon man

Pippen could do a little bit of everything but he wasnt a traditional point guard

I said "real" point guard not traditional

Pippen & LeBron are the modern point guards in 2024
There isn't anymore John Stockton's in the league

Career assist average
Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.2

During their championship runs Pippen usually averaged about 1 assist more per game. In 97/98 season Pippen averaged about 2 assist more per game.

[LaLover11]

Pippen could do a little bit of everything but he wasnt a traditional point guard

I said "real" point guard not traditional

Pippen & LeBron are the modern point guards in 2024
There isn't anymore John Stockton's in the league

Career assist average
Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.2

During their championship runs Pippen usually averaged about 1 assist more per game. In 97/98 season Pippen averaged about 2 assist more per game.

Great Jordan was a good combo guard with the potential to be a part time point guard duties

Pippen was the Manger at Point Guard for the Bulls
I'll let Phil Jackson speak for me

Read on Twitter

Goodnight everyone

[JN61]

No. Cp0 was always mental midget in the playoffs.
Let's not forget OKC vs clips playoff serie where Westbrook just bullied him entire serie with cp0 absolutely unable to guard bigger player. And as far as I understand we rank Durant way higher.

[JN61]

At the moment on RealGM TOP100 2023

20th Paul
22th Durant

so there are planty of arguments Paul>Durant

That's quite a delusion and revision of history. Honestly I rank Nash higher than cp0

[KingFox]

It's officially August around here. Wtf

[Impuniti]

So for the exact stat I was looking at which would be playoff on/off, Chris Paul was +6.6 in Houston vs. +6.2 for his career as a whole. It is very possible for 2 superstar level players to both show positive impact in these sort of metrics on the same team.

Interestingly Durant’s playoff on/off was actually much better when he played next to MVP candidates in Curry and Westbrook. The issue is that he has a playoff on/off of -14.3 in Brooklyn and Phoenix headlined by the series where he was absolutely horrendous in getting swept by Boston where he got his pocket picked non-stop, had a BPM of -2.9, and the Nets were 52.9 points worse with him on the floor.

Right, but his impact cratered at Houston when you look at his partner. When you take into account Harden instead of just pure on/off, you see his impact falls off a cliff. If you just look at Houston and CP3 by itself without accounting Harden, it looks much better. Now CP3 still turned that very good team into an elite team that was also a contender (so he's done this 3 times in nearly 20 years of basketball), but his impact will always be felt on a lesser scale when you account for elite level talent.

All elite level talent isn't equal.
Putting LeBron next to Westbrook didn't work excellently. Putting LeBron next to Harden wouldn't maximize the talents of both either.

It's not hard to figure out why Harden with CP3 left something to be desired even though it worked quite well.

Mike D'Antoni spoke on it at the time too.

That Rockets team might be the best team that never won a championship, so I'm not really seeing the comparison to a washed up WB and Lebron here. The point wasn't that it didn't work (not everyone can win, that's the hard reality of sports), but that the impact significantly fell when he had an MVP level talent next to him. It also shows CP's impact on/off in relation to Harden.

That's why cherry picking statistics such as look at KD's on/off and CP's on/off doesn't give you a fair evaluation. KD had higher level talent next to him, of course his impact is going to look lesser compared to CP3.

[Impuniti]

So in other words, nothing particularly special. It's easier to make bad teams look solid than it is to raise the ceiling of actual contenders. So in that respect, congratulations to CP3.

Well I don't see anybody putting players like Tony Parker in any all-time lists so maybe it is special.

I don't even understand your point here. Parker was a great player and also helped elevate his teammates. PGs elevate their teammates, that's always one of their primary assets. CP elevating solid and good players means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of NBA lore.

[Lost92Bricks]

I don't even understand your point here. Parker was a great player and also helped elevate his teammates. PGs elevate their teammates, that's always one of their primary assets. CP elevating solid and good players means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of NBA lore.

And I'm saying it does mean something since he's gonna go down as one of the top players of his era and one of the GOAT point guards.

You're the one who said he sucks the air out of the court. That to me is insinuating him NOT making teams better.

My response is that can't be possible when he was getting teams to high seeds and even the NBA finals. And even getting guys paid.

[dhsilv2]

I agree that the triangle doesn’t use a PG but the Bulls never really had a true traditional playmaking point guard anyway.

Well yeah...and neither did the lakers. GM's don't get guys to do roles the team doesn't need. I'm not really sure what the point is here though. Like, if you had CP3 in the triangle, he'd mostly be a scorer posting up...his game actually isn't that different as a scorer than a lot of MJ's sets.

Now that said, I don't think you'd get the best value out of paul in the triangle either. Which is where I'm confused. Yeah he isn't the guy for that that. He also could be great with the 90's bulls in another system.

I only brought up the triangle cause someone said the Bulls were lucky to have a point guard like Pippen. Pippen had playmaking skills but so did Jordan and Kukoc, doesnt mean they were point guards. I also mentioned how several of the Bulls would bring the ball up the court and not just Pippen.

Well yeah, the triangle doesn't use a point guard. And that's confusing to people who think teams have each of the 1-5 positions. The reality is most teams and most NBA sets don't use 1-5 and that's why we get into so many bad basketball debates. Like was Duncan a center or not? Well clearly he was. Bird was a power forward. Today there is no small forward in 90% of sets and to some degree there might not be a power forward either.

More over, we could argue there is a "point" on most teams. And that's the primary ball handler in which case Pippen was clearly that for the bulls.

[scrabbarista]

I currently have a big gap. KD 18th and CP3 like 30th, IIRC.

But in the past I had CP3 much higher (like 22nd or something) and I may again in the future. (Also, KD is about to be passed by Giannis.)

I wouldn't think someone crazy who had CP3 higher. A bit unconventional, but definitely not wild.

I haven't created a top 30 or memorized anyone else's but Giannis has to be ranked higher than KD because he won a CHIP as the unquestioned #1. He also has a MVP and DPOY. So Giannis is truly a "GOAT" level player on par with anyone outside of Jordan, Wilt, LeBron, and Kareem. IMO. KD constantly plays with great players and doesn't have a comensorate number of CHIPS. Dame is great but he doesn't play defense. Giannis and another great player like Devin Booker would be an automatic title IMO.

Yeah, it's just a formality that Giannis will be ranked higher. Giannis is six or seven years younger, but he's already neck and neck and will be passing KD really soon. (Might be like the first week of the season or something. I'd have to look at my list to know.)

My ranking uses a formula, so every point, etc., factors in. That's why KD is currently higher. Not because he's a better player. He's not, clearly.

[dhsilv2]

Pippen could do a little bit of everything but he wasnt a traditional point guard

I said "real" point guard not traditional

Pippen & LeBron are the modern point guards in 2024
There isn't anymore John Stockton's in the league

Career assist average
Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.2

During their championship runs Pippen usually averaged about 1 assist more per game. In 97/98 season Pippen averaged about 2 assist more per game.

The triangle gives more assist opportunities to the two post guys vs the point guard. The point in the triangle just brings the ball up and makes the initial entry passes to start to the system. Look at someone like Fisher who brought the ball up much of his time in LA. He was often well down the list in assists.

[dhsilv2]

Right, but his impact cratered at Houston when you look at his partner. When you take into account Harden instead of just pure on/off, you see his impact falls off a cliff. If you just look at Houston and CP3 by itself without accounting Harden, it looks much better. Now CP3 still turned that very good team into an elite team that was also a contender (so he's done this 3 times in nearly 20 years of basketball), but his impact will always be felt on a lesser scale when you account for elite level talent.

All elite level talent isn't equal.
Putting LeBron next to Westbrook didn't work excellently. Putting LeBron next to Harden wouldn't maximize the talents of both either.

It's not hard to figure out why Harden with CP3 left something to be desired even though it worked quite well.

Mike D'Antoni spoke on it at the time too.

That Rockets team might be the best team that never won a championship, so I'm not really seeing the comparison to a washed up WB and Lebron here. The point wasn't that it didn't work (not everyone can win, that's the hard reality of sports), but that the impact significantly fell when he had an MVP level talent next to him. It also shows CP's impact on/off in relation to Harden.

That's why cherry picking statistics such as look at KD's on/off and CP's on/off doesn't give you a fair evaluation. KD had higher level talent next to him, of course his impact is going to look lesser compared to CP3.

Not sure I follow this logic when you start with how good the Rocket's team was.

Depending on which RAPM or whatever plus minus you use for 2018, you'll get some small differences but you'll consistently see CP3 and Harden in the top 5 if not both in the top 3. With Curry right there in that mix...again often the 3rd of the top 3. KD mean while was outside the top 10.

Sure it's just one year, but I don't think "he had better teammates so of course his impact stats would be worse" really follows when CP3 didn't have a drop off.

[scrabbarista]

I said "real" point guard not traditional

Pippen & LeBron are the modern point guards in 2024
There isn't anymore John Stockton's in the league

Career assist average
Jordan 5.3
Pippen 5.2

During their championship runs Pippen usually averaged about 1 assist more per game. In 97/98 season Pippen averaged about 2 assist more per game.

Great Jordan was a good combo guard with the potential to be a part time point guard duties

Pippen was the Manger at Point Guard for the Bulls
I'll let Phil Jackson speak for me

Read on Twitter

Goodnight everyone

This is similar to when Kerr (who learned from Jackson) called KD the Warriors' best player. He's just catering to a mentally soft fragile ego that needs to be affirmed in this way. Pip being underpaid probably made fiction like this even more necessary than it would've been otherwise.

[HMFFL]

Kevin Durant said that he's going to play until the wheels fall off and he's currently 10th all time in scoring. Appreciate him while you can.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[druggas]

I think people look at Kobe's numbers and say 'wow, 28ppg, he must have been better offensively than CP3'. But here's another simplistic way of showing why that's not true. So let's say Paul has 21ppg and 12apg, and Kobe has 28ppg and 5apg. Then let's be charitable to Kobe and assume each assist only led to a 2 point bucket. That would suggest Paul was producing 45 points for his team compared to 38 points for Kobe.

Of course, that's just a simplistic assessment, because it's actually so much worse for Kobe. CP3 is also more efficient, and he's turning it over less, and the other guys on his team are more efficient because he's setting them up so well, and this doesn't include all the hockey assists Paul creates by managing the offense so well, and on and on. But even this simplistic approach shows us Paul is better on O, and he's better on D too. Wait, what is Kobe's argument again?

"Re: Does CP3 have any argument as being better than Durant all time?"
That's the topic. Why do you always bring Kobe into every thread. We get it. You don't like him.