As a fan I am baffled

[#1knickfan]

I just don't see what the Yankees are getting at by playing hardball with the Twins. I have to look for the link but I had seen a report that said the Twins had backed off of asking for Kennedy along with Hughes and Cabrera. Despite this seemingly large concession the Yankees still couldn't make anything happen and now they are pulling out of the deal. With the Yankee franchise seemingly spinning its wheels over the past few seasons and its rivals (Detroit Tigers and LA Angels) making dramatic improvements I just don't understand how the Yankees are just going to let Boston walk away with Santana. Not when they could have had a rotation like this: Santana, Wang, Pettite, Chamberlain,Kennedy.

Its one thing to want to protect the youngsters you developed but at this rate it looks like the Yankee team that scrubbed out the last 2 postseasons will be back with very few changes. No Santana. No improvements to the lineup. I know they are talking about Heren and Bedard but those guys aren't Johan Santana. Why pay a similar price as Santana price to aquire fallback options? I am sorry for the long rambling post but I am just at a loss.

[Curmudgeon]

The Yankee championship teams of 1996-1999 had plenty of big-name free agents or players acquired from other teams (David Cone, Dwight Gooden, etc etc.), but the core of the team was home grown: Jeter, Bernie Williams, Posada, Pettite, El Duque, Rivera.

For the last 7 years they have traded away almost every decent prospect they had, pitching or otherwise, for name players and they spent huge dollars on name free agents. It hasn't worked. Giambi was ok for a couple of years and was useless thereafter. Pavano was a flop, Randy Johnson was a flop, Kevin Brown was a flop... the list goes on.

Now they've restocked with great young pitching prospects: Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Ohlendorf and Sanchez (just to name 5). So you want them to trade the best of these guys away to follow the same losing strategy? LOL.

[BigDaddyPR]

The Twins were asking for the world from the yanks, while accepting a bs offer from the Sox, the famous Yankee tax, it had to end you know.. **** the twins!!

[PR07]

This is a sad day for the Yankees' organization. Be prepared to fight for the Wildcard for the next 5 seasons.

[TheSheriff]

The Twins were asking for the world from the yanks, while accepting a bs offer from the Sox, the famous Yankee tax, it had to end you know.. **** the twins!!

Alan Horne is the world?

[xxrainnn]

Damn Twins.

Are the prospects that the Red Sox are giving them ever going to amount to anything decent? Are any of them even comparable to Hughes?

[nykgeneralmanager]

Damn Twins.

Are the prospects that the Red Sox are giving them ever going to amount to anything decent? Are any of them even comparable to Hughes?

Lowrie could be a solid ML SS, he flashed pretty good power in AA and AAA. Masterson is a B level prospect who may end up a reliever in a lot of people's minds.

So basically, no they do not compare to Hughes.

[Lconte17]

Masterson is already a reliever in the minors, so id say hes nothing more then a reliever in the majors if he makes it that far

[Pharmcat]

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Lowrie could be a solid ML SS, he flashed pretty good power in AA and AAA. Masterson is a B level prospect who may end up a reliever in a lot of people's minds.

So basically, no they do not compare to Hughes.

stop overrating phil

[#1knickfan]

The Yankee championship teams of 1996-1999 had plenty of big-name free agents or players acquired from other teams (David Cone, Dwight Gooden, etc etc.), but the core of the team was home grown: Jeter, Bernie Williams, Posada, Pettite, El Duque, Rivera.

For the last 7 years they have traded away almost every decent prospect they had, pitching or otherwise, for name players and they spent huge dollars on name free agents. It hasn't worked. Giambi was ok for a couple of years and was useless thereafter. Pavano was a flop, Randy Johnson was a flop, Kevin Brown was a flop... the list goes on.

Now they've restocked with great young pitching prospects: Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Ohlendorf and Sanchez (just to name 5). So you want them to trade the best of these guys away to follow the same losing strategy? LOL.

Are you seriously comparing Johan Santana to Pavano or the ancient Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown? Secondly, we weren't giving up Cano, Chamberlain, or Kennedy. Other than Phil Hughes we weren't giving up any super prospects. So your comparison sucks as well as your argument in general.

[#1knickfan]

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Lowrie could be a solid ML SS, he flashed pretty good power in AA and AAA. Masterson is a B level prospect who may end up a reliever in a lot of people's minds.

So basically, no they do not compare to Hughes.

Actually they are giving up some very good prospects for Santana. Maybe no one at Hughes level but I don't think Jon Lester is a bad consolation prize.

[Lconte17]

The sox are giving up some good prospects no doubt about it. i think everyones issues is the sox arent giving up a "stud" pitcher like Hughes, melky is already better the coco... thats all

i of course thing the yankees offer is better but if i was the gm of the twins and didnt take the yankees offer, id def take the sox offer

[TKF]

I think most of you are thinking about the Johan of 2003-2006. Do you really think that is the pitcher that is on the marke now? even if Free agency was pending back then, do you think the twins would be even contemplating moving a Johan santana from lets say, 2004?

Sometimes the price is just too high, In most cases when a pitcher is good, it is almost too late to trade for him, because that team will ask for the world.... No one is comparing an old randy Johnson or kevin brown to Johan, but it is more so our history with big name FA. Think back at javier vasques, we traded for him and this kid was supposed to be a stud. We never got the pitcher we thought we were getting, yet, Nick Johnson has been a pretty productive first baseman for the nats while we have had a revolving door at first base..

Honestly johan wasn't as good as bedard was last year.. And lets say that johan was the same pitcher he was last year, would that be good enough to give up prospects like hughes and kennedy? I don't know...

[Curmudgeon]

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Are you seriously comparing Johan Santana to Pavano or the ancient Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown? Secondly, we weren't giving up Cano, Chamberlain, or Kennedy. Other than Phil Hughes we weren't giving up any super prospects. So your comparison sucks as well as your argument in general.

Well, if it's any consolation, I think your argument sucks too. You sound like one of those idiot Boston radio talk show hosts, or one of the talking heads on ESPN. For starters, Cano isn't a prospect. He has arrived as one of the best young hitters in baseball. Secondly, I also regard Kennedy as a top prospect, and the Twins were also asking for one or two more guys.

I'll give you six reasons why the Yankee's shouldn't overpay for Santana.

1. Santana isn't necessarily the "best pitcher in baseball" any more. Read TKF's post. The guy's ERA jumped by half a run last year. Is he starting to have physical problems?

2. Santana would cost the Yanks (or the Red Sox) $175 million: approximately $125 million in salary and another $50 million in luxury tax, since both teams are now at the 40% rate. That's an awful lot to invest in a single player. One serious injury and it's all down the tubes.

3. If the Yankees traded both Hughes and Kennedy, they would likely have to move Joba Chamberlain to the starting rotation. IMHO Chamberlain must stay in the bullpen, because Rivera has become unreliable.

4. Philip Hughes could easily become a total stud over the next two years. Hughes and Kennedy together could easily win 25 games. Why give up 25 wins for 15, which is what Santana won last year?

5. Passing on Santana sends a message to the entire Yankee farm system that the major league team values its prospects and doesn't view them as mere fodder to obtain some overpaid, overhyped name player.

6. The notion of needing that "ace" for the playoffs is alot of baloney. Cleveland had two aces, and look where it got them.

[TKF]

you made a very good post, but this is the only thing I don't agree with..

3. If the Yankees traded both Hughes and Kennedy, they would likely have to move Joba Chamberlain to the starting rotation. IMHO Chamberlain must stay in the bullpen, because Rivera has become unreliable

I rather have joba in the starting rotation, and rivera has not been unrealiable, he has been very realiable, as realiable a reliever there has been...


But all of your other points I agree with..

[Jitpal]

I think most of you are thinking about the Johan of 2003-2006. Do you really think that is the pitcher that is on the marke now? even if Free agency was pending back then, do you think the twins would be even contemplating moving a Johan santana from lets say, 2004?

Sometimes the price is just too high, In most cases when a pitcher is good, it is almost too late to trade for him, because that team will ask for the world.... No one is comparing an old randy Johnson or kevin brown to Johan, but it is more so our history with big name FA. Think back at javier vasques, we traded for him and this kid was supposed to be a stud. We never got the pitcher we thought we were getting, yet, Nick Johnson has been a pretty productive first baseman for the nats while we have had a revolving door at first base..

Honestly johan wasn't as good as bedard was last year.. And lets say that johan was the same pitcher he was last year, would that be good enough to give up prospects like hughes and kennedy? I don't know...

I completely agree. He had a phenomenal four year stretch but it is highly unlikely that his next 4 years will be that good. I remember reading somewhere that his fastball got figured out by the Tigers and Indians last year and that's why his numbers dropped. If the Tigers and Indians figured it out, the rest of the league can't be too far behind. If you want to bring the Hughes will never be as good as Satana into it, you can but I don't think you would be right. Satana would be better for the next 2-3 years but after that you would have a 25 year old Hughes and a 34 year old Santana. At that point it is possible for Hughes to be better. Regardless, you are trading away a 21 year old with cy young potential for a 29 year old who has won cy youngs in the past. Especially when you factor in the money difference, I'll take the guy who might be able to win it for my team over the guy who has won it for someone else. -Jitpal

[Scalabrine]

do you think that the Tigers trade with Cabrera and Willis for a bunch of decent but not great prospects (Mayben was the best player sent formt hte Tigers) could effect the trade market? If both the Red Sox and the Yankees dont want to trade the farm for Santana that will leave the Twins having to find another trade partner who will pay Santana that kind of money, and the teams that would have done it already have had the money put in big bucks to other players (Tigers, Angels) and the other teams dont have the money or team to make trading for Santana worth it. Pretty much I think the market is the Yankees and Red Sox, both teams realize that and arent giving up much. Instead of outbidding eachother it seems like each team is staying pat and even lowering there offers as time goes by. The Twins should make up there mind because pretty soon there going ot be stuck with Santana and there bad team or there gonna lose him for WAY under value.

[Curmudgeon]

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I rather have joba in the starting rotation, and rivera has not been unrealiable, he has been very realiable, as realiable a reliever there has been...

He's lost velocity on his cutter. His ERA went up last year and he blew at least 6 saves (maybe more). He's a first ballot HOF pitcher but he's now 37 years old and still has only one meaningful pitch.

[TKF]

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I completely agree. He had a phenomenal four year stretch but it is highly unlikely that his next 4 years will be that good. I remember reading somewhere that his fastball got figured out by the Tigers and Indians last year and that's why his numbers dropped. If the Tigers and Indians figured it out, the rest of the league can't be too far behind. If you want to bring the Hughes will never be as good as Satana into it, you can but I don't think you would be right. Satana would be better for the next 2-3 years but after that you would have a 25 year old Hughes and a 34 year old Santana. At that point it is possible for Hughes to be better. Regardless, you are trading away a 21 year old with cy young potential for a 29 year old who has won cy youngs in the past. Especially when you factor in the money difference, I'll take the guy who might be able to win it for my team over the guy who has won it for someone else. -Jitpal

excellent post. People need to stop comparing Hughes to santana of 4 years ago.. that johan, we will probably never see again. So we are not comapring hughes to that player, if that was the case, if there was a 24 year old johan from 2003 on the market, this trade and you add in kennedy and whoever else is a no brainer.. but we are not dealing with the same pitcher... a damn good one johan is, but not the same pitcher.... So as you said, next year and the year after, as hughes who is just 21 starts to emerge, what type of pitcher do you have with Johan? is it worth that many front line type of players?

[nykgeneralmanager]

do you think that the Tigers trade with Cabrera and Willis for a bunch of decent but not great prospects (Mayben was the best player sent formt hte Tigers) could effect the trade market? If both the Red Sox and the Yankees dont want to trade the farm for Santana that will leave the Twins having to find another trade partner who will pay Santana that kind of money, and the teams that would have done it already have had the money put in big bucks to other players (Tigers, Angels) and the other teams dont have the money or team to make trading for Santana worth it. Pretty much I think the market is the Yankees and Red Sox, both teams realize that and arent giving up much. Instead of outbidding eachother it seems like each team is staying pat and even lowering there offers as time goes by. The Twins should make up there mind because pretty soon there going ot be stuck with Santana and there bad team or there gonna lose him for WAY under value.

Maybin is a top 5 position player prospect, and going into last season Andrew Miller was a top 5 pitching prospect. Tigers gave up the equivelant to Hughes + Tabata, except Tabata would have to be major league ready and not prepping for AA.