[Charania]: Suns Waive and Stretch Little/Waive Liddell

[Scoot McGroot]

This has got to be the longest length of dead money for an NBA team, right?

Currently? I believe so. Ever? Nope. Portland stretch waived Andrew Nicholson in 2017, and he JUST came off their books upon July 1. I’m sure there’s been others?

I didn’t really get the Suns signing him to that contract at the time. .

They didn’t sign him. He was necessary salary filler in the Ayton for Nurkic swap.

plan is probably booker to houston for own picks back in 2 yrs (or via a 3rd team)

Durant’s not going to play forever and Beal will expire. At some point, I’m sure Phoenix will hope that Booker’s relationships around the league, ownership’s willingness to spend, and cap space might allow the team to backfill a star player in free agency?

I’d assume that Phoenix is planning on building around Booker until the end, or something else changes. His “reputation building play” for the Olympics team probably helps a lot, too. All these guys saw that Booker will do whatever it takes to win and can fit with most anybody.

I think keeping Booker on a supermax and still trying to win while also staying out of tax is really hard to accomplish

Why would they have to stay out of the tax? But if top talents are viewed as necessary to winning, they’d already have one in Booker.

[Godaddycurse]

Why would they have to stay out of the tax? But if top talents are viewed as necessary to winning, they’d already have one in Booker.

i was playing along with the idea that their owner said they will be out of the tax in 3 yrs one way or another. someone above me said it

That Little contract had 3 years left on it and over $20M. And now it is being stretched, so maybe 6 years or something, and can never be traded. That is real bad. Suns must have been really desperate to get the savings now.

Owner outright said in three years they'll be out of the tax one way or another, so significant savings in the long run since most of that salary will no longer be taxed

[jredsaz]

Why would they have to stay out of the tax? But if top talents are viewed as necessary to winning, they’d already have one in Booker.

i was playing along with the idea that their owner said they will be out of the tax in 3 yrs one way or another. someone above me said it

That Little contract had 3 years left on it and over $20M. And now it is being stretched, so maybe 6 years or something, and can never be traded. That is real bad. Suns must have been really desperate to get the savings now.

Owner outright said in three years they'll be out of the tax one way or another, so significant savings in the long run since most of that salary will no longer be taxed

Ishbia was speaking to the fact that the organization knows about the penalties associated with being over the second apron for three consecutive years and will adjust accordingly. I fully expect that they are under the second apron (probably under the first too) in 26/27 unless they are reigning NBA champs or close to it.

[jredsaz]

That Little contract had 3 years left on it and over $20M. And now it is being stretched, so maybe 6 years or something, and can never be traded. That is real bad. Suns must have been really desperate to get the savings now.

Reportedly it’s $3.1M per year over seven years.

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[jredsaz]

This is a huge failure for Phoenix. Instead of being able to add small assets to him to turn the salary into a more useful player, they just absorb the hit. They have that 2031 1st, you can't convince me that Little + a 1st would not have resulted in a good, young, rotation player ... or that if they could buy some 2nds, etc. that they couldn't turn him into a different small, bad contract.

Suns have limited assets to make a move this season. I don’t think it would have been wise to burn them in order to dump Little. I think they probably looked around to try and get a good player back for Little and an asset but that effort was clearly exhausted.

[DirtyDez]

This is a huge failure for Phoenix. Instead of being able to add small assets to him to turn the salary into a more useful player, they just absorb the hit. They have that 2031 1st, you can't convince me that Little + a 1st would not have resulted in a good, young, rotation player ... or that if they could buy some 2nds, etc. that they couldn't turn him into a different small, bad contract.

I’m sure they tried trading him. What GM trading for a pick 7 years down the road is still going to be GM of that team? 2031 pick sounds better on paper.

[jredsaz]

That Little contract had 3 years left on it and over $20M. And now it is being stretched, so maybe 6 years or something, and can never be traded. That is real bad. Suns must have been really desperate to get the savings now.

Owner outright said in three years they'll be out of the tax one way or another, so significant savings in the long run since most of that salary will no longer be taxed

So in 3 years the plan is Booker + cheaper vets (without being able to draft much). Tough to see Booker one-man carrying them to the playoffs.

That’s not what he said. Ishbia made it clear that the Suns won’t stay over the second apron for more than two years, starting from 24/25, unless they are legit championship contenders.

Booker will be 30 in 26/27 and KD will be 38. KD and Nurk expire. Thats $75M off the books. Beal will pick up his player option but Suns will have some options. I understand Beals NTC will limit those options but the Bartelstein connection should help with facilitating a transaction if it’s needed.

Seems like a logical time to pivot around Booker and build the next iteration of the roster. Guessing Book and Suns can attract another all star caliber guy to come play there.

[chrbal]

This is a huge failure for Phoenix. Instead of being able to add small assets to him to turn the salary into a more useful player, they just absorb the hit. They have that 2031 1st, you can't convince me that Little + a 1st would not have resulted in a good, young, rotation player ... or that if they could buy some 2nds, etc. that they couldn't turn him into a different small, bad contract.

To some extent I agree with this, but the window for them to do that was early in the offseason. In 5 seasons he’s missed too many games and his lone good season wasn’t that good. Which he only played like 40 games in. GMs probably also wanted the Suns ‘24 1st and Little for a so so player and a very late second round pick.

At this point, the Suns only options would’ve been teams like Detroit, Charlotte, Washington, etc. Charlotte got 3 seconds to take on one year of Reggie Jackson who gave a lot of his money back, Detroit you maybe get Moore Jr, Washington maybe Johnny Davis. All while trying to convince those teams that a 2031 1st round pick is good for a GM who’s not established enough to feel confident they’ll be making that pick.

Suns got stuck with him, Little owes his agent a debt of gratitude, the Suns did the only thing they could do under the circumstances.

[OxAndFox]

Stretch waiving is only done by incompetent teams.

[OxAndFox]

The Suns needed a Little flexibility, then decided they needed a Liddell more?

Ba Dum Tshhh!
Well played.

[jredsaz]

Stretch waiving is only done by incompetent teams.

I don’t think that accurate. Ishbia saves $20M+ in taxes but still fields the most expensive team in the NBA. It’s certainly a trade off and not optimal but I’d hardly call it incompetence.

[OxAndFox]

Stretch waiving is only done by incompetent teams.

I don’t think that accurate. Ishbia saves $20M+ in taxes but still fields the most expensive team in the NBA. It’s certainly a trade off and not optimal but I’d hardly call it incompetence.

It's either incompetence to get said player in, or incompetence to stretch waive. Either way. It is not helping the Phoenix Suns win this season. That's all they need to be concerned about. Next year it's a more than manageable 2 year contract they could get rid of with some 2nds.
Or you have expirings like Duarte at Chicago, or Carter on 2 years at Chicago, or another expiring in Beasley at Detroit. At the deadline would they go for 1-2 of the Denver 2nds for any of these? Maybe, Maybe not. But they could also head to next year. Carters expiring for 2 years of Little plus the 2nds. All players would help in some fashion for the Suns. Not a huge role, but they could help during stretches.
If you have to, give up the first and get some valuable 2nds back from a Detroit or Chicago. The Suns might not end up that much worse off.

[giberish]

Stretch waiving is only done by incompetent teams.

I don’t think that accurate. Ishbia saves $20M+ in taxes but still fields the most expensive team in the NBA. It’s certainly a trade off and not optimal but I’d hardly call it incompetence.

It's definitely a sign that some mistake(s) have been made. It's just a matter of where. If a contract's being waived and stretched with 3 years left than it was a clear mistake to sign it to begin with. If traded for (I think the deal was actually signed by Portland then included in the Ayton/Nurkic deal) than the team trading for him needed to properly account for the poor value deal in the trade (which might have happened if Phoenix was desperate to move Ayton.

[hcsilla]

the team trading for him needed to properly account for the poor value deal in the trade (which might have happened if Phoenix was desperate to move Ayton.

I think that's what actually has happened.

[jredsaz]

Stretch waiving is only done by incompetent teams.

I don’t think that accurate. Ishbia saves $20M+ in taxes but still fields the most expensive team in the NBA. It’s certainly a trade off and not optimal but I’d hardly call it incompetence.

It's either incompetence to get said player in, or incompetence to stretch waive. Either way. It is not helping the Phoenix Suns win this season. That's all they need to be concerned about. Next year it's a more than manageable 2 year contract they could get rid of with some 2nds.
Or you have expirings like Duarte at Chicago, or Carter on 2 years at Chicago, or another expiring in Beasley at Detroit. At the deadline would they go for 1-2 of the Denver 2nds for any of these? Maybe, Maybe not. But they could also head to next year. Carters expiring for 2 years of Little plus the 2nds. All players would help in some fashion for the Suns. Not a huge role, but they could help during stretches.
If you have to, give up the first and get some valuable 2nds back from a Detroit or Chicago. The Suns might not end up that much worse off.

Incompetent isn’t the right word. I’m sure they tried to get off of the contract this summer and couldn’t. It would have been incompetent to pay an asset to get off of the contract and they didn’t do that. This was all about money and budget. With their second apron restrictions and repeater tax penalties there wasn’t a reason to keep Little on the roster.