RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Morb]

LeBron is GOAT for career.
I hate Jordan.

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron is GOAT for career.
I hate Jordan.

Would take MJ’s career over LeBron all day, everyday.

[ScrantonBulls]

LeBron is GOAT for career.
I hate Jordan.

Would take MJ’s career over LeBron all day, everyday.

It's really a shame he didn't love the game more or was more committed to it. Would have loved to see more prime years out of MJ. He just didn't have it in him unfortunately.

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron is GOAT for career.
I hate Jordan.

Would take MJ’s career over LeBron all day, everyday.

It's really a shame he didn't love the game more or was more committed to it. Would have loved to see more prime years out of MJ. He just didn't have it in him unfortunately.

And yet it still trumps LeBron’s career. Just a shame he had to collude to win his first rings. He just didn’t have it in him without forcing a super team. Shame.

[Gregoire]

Jordan was just better basketball player. Fanboys need to accept (I know its very painful for them).

[rzzzzz]

Watch on YouTube

Does Bill Russell outscore everyone? No. Does he even get the most rebounds? Not sure. Not obvious. But he is in the middle of all the action, and like always, finds a way to pull out the series for the title. Notice that he wears out Chamberlain, which happened almost every time they met in game 7, except in 1967 when Chamberlain had a young giant phenom named Luke Jackson, who looked like the next big thing until he got injured. Also, notice the brilliance of Jerry West here. You can only imagine what he would have accomplished with a 3-point line, though I get the feeling that Russell would still figure a way of out working the Lakers. As far as the other Celtics just being the most talented roster, recall they didn't win a title until he arrived, they lost the finals his 2nd year, when he sprained his ankle, and they stopped winning after he retired. Including the '67 Sixers (a definite GOAT candidate) Russell won 11 titles in his 13 seasons, plus winning consecutive NCAA titles for U of San Fran (back when the US did not make things easy for young black men) and led US college grads to Olympic gold. That's 14 titles out of the 16 possible he contended for. Just lucky I guess.

[JasonStern]

Peak Jordan beats peak LeBron.
20 seasons of LeBron beats 20 hypothetical seasons of Jordan.
Total question of peak versus longevity.

[ScrantonBulls]

Peak Jordan beats peak LeBron.
20 seasons of LeBron beats 20 hypothetical seasons of Jordan.
Total question of peak versus longevity.

How much better is peak Jordan over peak LeBron, if you had to quantify it? Is there any stat you could use to do that?

[OGSactownballer]

I will make one comment here and then I’m done with this nonsense.

Watch how Wemby’s career goes (if it continues in the arc it appears). This is what Wilt would have been in the modern era. Even more dominant and unstoppable than he was then without the workouts, the nutrition, the skill sets and coaching and pre planning that describes the current era of professional basketball.

No matter how fun to watch, athletic and tricky the guards and forwards are, in the end it always comes back to the fact that being great as a professional basketball player is dominated by the guys with size.

And Wilt was the way before his time version of the modern multi skilled big centers but he also dominated traditionally.

It’s Wilt. It will always be Wilt. Until a Wemby unseats him. We will see in twenty years.

[bledredwine]

I will make one comment here and then I’m done with this nonsense.

Watch how Wemby’s career goes (if it continues in the arc it appears). This is what Wilt would have been in the modern era. Even more dominant and unstoppable than he was then without the workouts, the nutrition, the skill sets and coaching and pre planning that describes the current era of professional basketball.

No matter how fun to watch, athletic and tricky the guards and forwards are, in the end it always comes back to the fact that being great as a professional basketball player is dominated by the guys with size.

And Wilt was the way before his time version of the modern multi skilled big centers but he also dominated traditionally.

It’s Wilt. It will always be Wilt. Until a Wendy unseats him. We will see in twenty years.

I've been telling a few of my friends this all year.

And for some reason, they don't understand the analogy.

[Laimbeer]

So Curry, Jokic, and Kobe but no Wilt.

[WarriorGM]

So Curry, Jokic, and Kobe but no Wilt.

Players who have been on the franchise that drafted them for their whole career. Curry is the greatest Warrior. Jokic is the greatest Nugget. Kobe is possibly the greatest Laker. Wilt played for both the Warriors and Lakers and he is neither a greater Warrior than Curry nor a greater Laker than Kobe.

[WarriorGM]

I see this was posted in the other forum

If [Steph] had a credible case, wouldn't there be at least one person, here or in the media, that would call him the GOAT? I've never seen it in either place. Anywhere. Nobody. Even in this thread it's comments like "it could be argued" or "someone might say"...with no one stepping up to own it.

We hate LeBron
We love Steph
LeBron has a GOAT case
Let's pretend Steph does, too

The reason it is not argued there is because it is the LeBron forum. You will not see serious arguments made on Curry's behalf from people who do not want to make them. And the people who would make them have been escorted to the door.

I am willing to make the strong arguments on Curry's behalf. I am willing to argue the case that he is the greatest. Will I out and out say that he is? Not yet. It would seem a little disrespectful to the other strong contenders. Unlike LeBron fans I'd like to think I am a bit more circumspect and less audacious with the claims. For the same reason though I take note of how Curry is disrespected. Curry is at the table whether the detractors like it or not.

[OGSactownballer]

So Curry, Jokic, and Kobe but no Wilt.

Obvious recency bias and a complete inability to understand how to compare and convert to equal matchups.

[OGSactownballer]

So Curry, Jokic, and Kobe but no Wilt.

Players who have been on the franchise that drafted them for their whole career. Curry is the greatest Warrior. Jokic is the greatest Nugget. Kobe is possibly the greatest Laker. Wilt played for both the Warriors and Lakers and he is neither a greater Warrior than Curry nor a greater Laker than Kobe.

That is quite honestly the most irrelevant and inaccurate argument I have ever seen applied to this question.

They are two entirely different things.

[LaLover11]

Read on Twitter

[JasonStern]

Peak Jordan beats peak LeBron.
20 seasons of LeBron beats 20 hypothetical seasons of Jordan.
Total question of peak versus longevity.

How much better is peak Jordan over peak LeBron, if you had to quantify it? Is there any stat you could use to do that?

Not really. More just eye test. It's really difficult to compare players across eras. LeBron would probably average 50 if he played in the 1960s - presuming he had the same training regiment and knowledge of the modern game. But he'd also likely get punched in the face a few times. Trade offs. Jordan is the GOAT of his era. LeBron is the GOAT of his era. And Kareem is the GOAT of his era.

From a raw stat standpoint, Jordan had better seasons. But the 1991-92 season in my mind was his peak. Won a 'chip. Outside of Pippen, the talent drop-off was steep. Cartwright or BJ Armstrong were the third best players. He carried most of the team.

But you could make an argument that the 2006-07 Cavaliers making the finals is even more impressive. Outside of LeBron, that looks like a g-league roster. But there was such a talent disparity back then between the east and the west. And the Spurs swept them in pretty decisive fashion. The two home losses were close, but never really out of San Antonio's hand.

I lean LeBron as the GOAT. Crazy to think that if you were born his sophomore season, you'd have been able to see him in as many all star games as it takes to legally drink in most places in the world (20x straight). Plus, you have Olympic aspect (I don't care remotely about FIBA). And not taking two seasons off. Not bashing Jordan for that, but not taking that out of consideration when deciding on who, in my arrogant opinion, the GOAT is.

[nikster]

I see this was posted in the other forum

If [Steph] had a credible case, wouldn't there be at least one person, here or in the media, that would call him the GOAT? I've never seen it in either place. Anywhere. Nobody. Even in this thread it's comments like "it could be argued" or "someone might say"...with no one stepping up to own it.

We hate LeBron
We love Steph
LeBron has a GOAT case
Let's pretend Steph does, too

The reason it is not argued there is because it is the LeBron forum. You will not see serious arguments made on Curry's behalf from people who do not want to make them. And the people who would make them have been escorted to the door.

I am willing to make the strong arguments on Curry's behalf. I am willing to argue the case that he is the greatest. Will I out and out say that he is? Not yet. It would seem a little disrespectful to the other strong contenders. Unlike LeBron fans I'd like to think I am a bit more circumspect and less audacious with the claims. For the same reason though I take note of how Curry is disrespected. Curry is at the table whether the detractors like it or not.

Is there a single forum or social media group where this is not the case (other than maybe a Warriors forum)? I feel like every time I see these "only on realGM" type comments they ignore that it's likely the prevalent opinion on every social mesaage board, social media site, or sports media company.

[WarriorGM]

I see this was posted in the other forum

If [Steph] had a credible case, wouldn't there be at least one person, here or in the media, that would call him the GOAT? I've never seen it in either place. Anywhere. Nobody. Even in this thread it's comments like "it could be argued" or "someone might say"...with no one stepping up to own it.

We hate LeBron
We love Steph
LeBron has a GOAT case
Let's pretend Steph does, too

The reason it is not argued there is because it is the LeBron forum. You will not see serious arguments made on Curry's behalf from people who do not want to make them. And the people who would make them have been escorted to the door.

I am willing to make the strong arguments on Curry's behalf. I am willing to argue the case that he is the greatest. Will I out and out say that he is? Not yet. It would seem a little disrespectful to the other strong contenders. Unlike LeBron fans I'd like to think I am a bit more circumspect and less audacious with the claims. For the same reason though I take note of how Curry is disrespected. Curry is at the table whether the detractors like it or not.

Is there a single forum or social media group where this is not the case (other than maybe a Warriors forum)? I feel like every time I see these "only on realGM" type comments they ignore that it's likely the prevalent opinion on every social mesaage board, social media site, or sports media company.

Argumentum ad popularum.

Even then you are seeing the argument here are you not?

But then what do you also see along with it? A number of people pre-emptively jumping in questioning and trying to dismiss the idea. The aim seems to be to stop the discussion before it even starts. You see it here now and it happens even more disruptively in that other forum.

Most people do not hold a strong opinion and just go along with the conventional wisdom or what seems logical. It doesn't seem like a shorter guy could compete with giants so they guess it makes sense that he doesn't. Except that he does.

Curry being the greatest player ever is in the the grand scheme of things a small potatoes issue. In medicine we still have the eating fat makes you fat idea still perpetuating its malign influence. The idea that acidity is the primary cause for ulcers was dominant for years.

[nikster]

I see this was posted in the other forum



The reason it is not argued there is because it is the LeBron forum. You will not see serious arguments made on Curry's behalf from people who do not want to make them. And the people who would make them have been escorted to the door.

I am willing to make the strong arguments on Curry's behalf. I am willing to argue the case that he is the greatest. Will I out and out say that he is? Not yet. It would seem a little disrespectful to the other strong contenders. Unlike LeBron fans I'd like to think I am a bit more circumspect and less audacious with the claims. For the same reason though I take note of how Curry is disrespected. Curry is at the table whether the detractors like it or not.

Is there a single forum or social media group where this is not the case (other than maybe a Warriors forum)? I feel like every time I see these "only on realGM" type comments they ignore that it's likely the prevalent opinion on every social mesaage board, social media site, or sports media company.

Argumentum ad popularum.

Even then you are seeing the argument here are you not?

But then what do you also see along with it? A number of people pre-emptively jumping in questioning and trying to dismiss the idea. The aim seems to be to stop the discussion before it even starts. You see it here now and it happens even more disruptively in that other forum.

Most people do not hold a strong opinion and just go along with the conventional wisdom or what seems logical. It doesn't seem like a shorter guy could compete with giants so they guess it makes sense that he doesn't. Except that he does.

Curry being the greatest player ever is in the the grand scheme of things a small potatoes issue. In medicine we still have the eating fat makes you fat idea still perpetuating its malign influence. The idea that acidity is the primary cause for ulcers was dominant for years.

Yeah I don't want to get into the debate, I just think the "it is the LeBron forum." Comment is ridiculous. And those types of comments are typically used to make it seem like this is an opinion specific to realGM rather than the whole world.