Jack Armstrong on Current State of the Raptors (Video)

[Scase]

I think you are underestimating the impact of how useful rotation level role players become on a team with three all-stars including an mvp level player. Building depth in this scenario with a core at that level is relatively easy with financial flexibility and control of your draft going forward. You wouldn't need magical players, just good contributors.

My friend, we have had financial flexibility and control for years, and we have had a bottom 3 bench for years. If building depth was relatively easy, we wouldn't be in the state we've been in for years. Last season was the only real season with financial "instability", not to mention any financial "instability" we've suffered has been a direct result of the FO. The same FO who we are expecting to have a "relatively easy" time getting these players.

In a vacuum yeah, it shouldn't be hard. But taking into account fit, salaries, FO competency, and the other 29 teams in the NBA, it isn't easy.

I was saying easy relative to getting three all stars, one of which is an mvp level. But the fact they couldn’t put functional depth around Pascal, Fred and OG is in part due to none of those three being mvp level which is why they had to pull the plug and should have sooner. Again , this is all extremely hypothetical but players like Brown,Yak, Dick, Mitchell even would all be way better contributors with a
player at an MVP level.

Ah yeah I got you, I agree, comparatively easy. That said, everyone likes to constantly gush about how Siakam was an All NBA/AS player, and FVV was an AS player, and that OG was an All defence level player but didn't get respect due to being in Canada, and while thats not MVP level + 2x AS, it's not that far off.

I agree they should've pulled the plug ages ago, but they weren't a terrible team, and they should've had a WAY better bench behind them. The FO just failed miserably at it, so the expectation they would fail to do so again, isn't that far fetched.

[anotherhomer]

My friend, we have had financial flexibility and control for years, and we have had a bottom 3 bench for years. If building depth was relatively easy, we wouldn't be in the state we've been in for years. Last season was the only real season with financial "instability", not to mention any financial "instability" we've suffered has been a direct result of the FO. The same FO who we are expecting to have a "relatively easy" time getting these players.

In a vacuum yeah, it shouldn't be hard. But taking into account fit, salaries, FO competency, and the other 29 teams in the NBA, it isn't easy.

I was saying easy relative to getting three all stars, one of which is an mvp level. But the fact they couldn’t put functional depth around Pascal, Fred and OG is in part due to none of those three being mvp level which is why they had to pull the plug and should have sooner. Again , this is all extremely hypothetical but players like Brown,Yak, Dick, Mitchell even would all be way better contributors with a
player at an MVP level.

Ah yeah I got you, I agree, comparatively easy. That said, everyone likes to constantly gush about how Siakam was an All NBA/AS player, and FVV was an AS player, and that OG was an All defence level player but didn't get respect due to being in Canada, and while thats not MVP level + 2x AS, it's not that far off.

I agree they should've pulled the plug ages ago, but they weren't a terrible team, and they should've had a WAY better bench behind them. The FO just failed miserably at it, so the expectation they would fail to do so again, isn't that far fetched.

Ujiri tried to bridge from fvv/pascal to Barnes but he had to do a hard reset

[JB7]

I don't think you need to flat out tank to get a top pick nowadays. Even if we finish in the play in area we have a decent shot at a top 7 pick.

That is the neat part of all this parity. You don't necessarily have to begin the szn in the gutter hoping for the 82 game szn to end. The Hawks won 9 more games than us & won the lottery last yr

This year will be much different than last season. Because the draft was so weak at the top end last season, teams didn’t have reason to tank hard. With a deeper draft this year, already there are 7 teams (Jazz, Blazers, Nets, Wiz, Bulls, Hornets, Pistons) that look like they will be tanking hard this season, and that is not counting the teams that might have a key injury and decide to tank (such as the Griz last year).

[Vampirate]

My friend, we have had financial flexibility and control for years, and we have had a bottom 3 bench for years. If building depth was relatively easy, we wouldn't be in the state we've been in for years. Last season was the only real season with financial "instability", not to mention any financial "instability" we've suffered has been a direct result of the FO. The same FO who we are expecting to have a "relatively easy" time getting these players.

In a vacuum yeah, it shouldn't be hard. But taking into account fit, salaries, FO competency, and the other 29 teams in the NBA, it isn't easy.

I was saying easy relative to getting three all stars, one of which is an mvp level. But the fact they couldn’t put functional depth around Pascal, Fred and OG is in part due to none of those three being mvp level which is why they had to pull the plug and should have sooner. Again , this is all extremely hypothetical but players like Brown,Yak, Dick, Mitchell even would all be way better contributors with a
player at an MVP level.

Ah yeah I got you, I agree, comparatively easy. That said, everyone likes to constantly gush about how Siakam was an All NBA/AS player, and FVV was an AS player, and that OG was an All defence level player but didn't get respect due to being in Canada, and while thats not MVP level + 2x AS, it's not that far off.

I agree they should've pulled the plug ages ago, but they weren't a terrible team, and they should've had a WAY better bench behind them. The FO just failed miserably at it, so the expectation they would fail to do so again, isn't that far fetched.

Honestly calling Siakam and All NBA player and FVV an AS player is a bit wrong.

It's closer to Siakam is an All Star player that made an All NBA team and FVV is a starter who made an All Star team.

For someone to be a ______ player they'd need to be in that discussion year after year imo.

[DreamTeam09]

I don't think you need to flat out tank to get a top pick nowadays. Even if we finish in the play in area we have a decent shot at a top 7 pick.

That is the neat part of all this parity. You don't necessarily have to begin the szn in the gutter hoping for the 82 game szn to end. The Hawks won 9 more games than us & won the lottery last yr

This year will be much different than last season. Because the draft was so weak at the top end last season, teams didn’t have reason to tank hard. With a deeper draft this year, already there are 7 teams (Jazz, Blazers, Nets, Wiz, Bulls, Hornets, Pistons) that look like they will be tanking hard this season, and that is not counting the teams that might have a key injury and decide to tank (such as the Griz last year).

Each and every one of those teams were in the exact same position last yr to start the szn. Hornets aren't even tanking either this year, and the Bulls r bad cuz they're the Bulls.

[Zeno]

I was saying easy relative to getting three all stars, one of which is an mvp level. But the fact they couldn’t put functional depth around Pascal, Fred and OG is in part due to none of those three being mvp level which is why they had to pull the plug and should have sooner. Again , this is all extremely hypothetical but players like Brown,Yak, Dick, Mitchell even would all be way better contributors with a
player at an MVP level.

Ah yeah I got you, I agree, comparatively easy. That said, everyone likes to constantly gush about how Siakam was an All NBA/AS player, and FVV was an AS player, and that OG was an All defence level player but didn't get respect due to being in Canada, and while thats not MVP level + 2x AS, it's not that far off.

I agree they should've pulled the plug ages ago, but they weren't a terrible team, and they should've had a WAY better bench behind them. The FO just failed miserably at it, so the expectation they would fail to do so again, isn't that far fetched.

Honestly calling Siakam and All NBA player and FVV an AS player is a bit wrong.

It's closer to Siakam is an All Star player that made an All NBA team and FVV is a starter who made an All Star team.

For someone to be a ______ player they'd need to be in that discussion year after year imo.

I agree, the assumption here is a scenario where you have three guys who are legit in the all-star conversation year after year and one guy who is in the mvp top 5 conversation a few times without the benefit of it just being a bunch of injures to the real guys. So Quickly, Barrett would need to reach the Kyle, Demar, Pascal level and Barnes would at minimum need to be peak prime level Paul George for example. I don’t think that level of trio is hard to add pieces around if you aren’t capped out and out of picks. We are in fantasy land for sure but I think the need to tank at that point is kind of gone. lol.

[Scase]

I was saying easy relative to getting three all stars, one of which is an mvp level. But the fact they couldn’t put functional depth around Pascal, Fred and OG is in part due to none of those three being mvp level which is why they had to pull the plug and should have sooner. Again , this is all extremely hypothetical but players like Brown,Yak, Dick, Mitchell even would all be way better contributors with a
player at an MVP level.

Ah yeah I got you, I agree, comparatively easy. That said, everyone likes to constantly gush about how Siakam was an All NBA/AS player, and FVV was an AS player, and that OG was an All defence level player but didn't get respect due to being in Canada, and while thats not MVP level + 2x AS, it's not that far off.

I agree they should've pulled the plug ages ago, but they weren't a terrible team, and they should've had a WAY better bench behind them. The FO just failed miserably at it, so the expectation they would fail to do so again, isn't that far fetched.

Ujiri tried to bridge from fvv/pascal to Barnes but he had to do a hard reset

And yet, we still haven't done a hard reset.

I was saying easy relative to getting three all stars, one of which is an mvp level. But the fact they couldn’t put functional depth around Pascal, Fred and OG is in part due to none of those three being mvp level which is why they had to pull the plug and should have sooner. Again , this is all extremely hypothetical but players like Brown,Yak, Dick, Mitchell even would all be way better contributors with a
player at an MVP level.

Ah yeah I got you, I agree, comparatively easy. That said, everyone likes to constantly gush about how Siakam was an All NBA/AS player, and FVV was an AS player, and that OG was an All defence level player but didn't get respect due to being in Canada, and while thats not MVP level + 2x AS, it's not that far off.

I agree they should've pulled the plug ages ago, but they weren't a terrible team, and they should've had a WAY better bench behind them. The FO just failed miserably at it, so the expectation they would fail to do so again, isn't that far fetched.

Honestly calling Siakam and All NBA player and FVV an AS player is a bit wrong.

It's closer to Siakam is an All Star player that made an All NBA team and FVV is a starter who made an All Star team.

For someone to be a ______ player they'd need to be in that discussion year after year imo.

I agree, and it's always been my stance. But a significant portion of this fanbase doesn't agree with that logical position.

Even without that being the case, that gives you 3 players, and 12 more roster spots to fill out, 7 if you are being generous. And we've added like 2 roster worthy players in like 5 years, not exactly filling me with confidence.

[DG88]

I don't think you need to flat out tank to get a top pick nowadays. Even if we finish in the play in area we have a decent shot at a top 7 pick.

That is the neat part of all this parity. You don't necessarily have to begin the szn in the gutter hoping for the 82 game szn to end. The Hawks won 9 more games than us & won the lottery last yr

This year will be much different than last season. Because the draft was so weak at the top end last season, teams didn’t have reason to tank hard. With a deeper draft this year, already there are 7 teams (Jazz, Blazers, Nets, Wiz, Bulls, Hornets, Pistons) that look like they will be tanking hard this season, and that is not counting the teams that might have a key injury and decide to tank (such as the Griz last year).

The only teams that are actually tanking are the Nets and the Wizards. The other teams are just young and inexperienced and based on that will lose games to better teams. We fall under that category.

[JB7]

That is the neat part of all this parity. You don't necessarily have to begin the szn in the gutter hoping for the 82 game szn to end. The Hawks won 9 more games than us & won the lottery last yr

This year will be much different than last season. Because the draft was so weak at the top end last season, teams didn’t have reason to tank hard. With a deeper draft this year, already there are 7 teams (Jazz, Blazers, Nets, Wiz, Bulls, Hornets, Pistons) that look like they will be tanking hard this season, and that is not counting the teams that might have a key injury and decide to tank (such as the Griz last year).

Each and every one of those teams were in the exact same position last yr to start the szn. Hornets aren't even tanking either this year, and the Bulls r bad cuz they're the Bulls.

The Nets and Bulls are significantly worse, and clearly tanking. Blazers and Jazz are clearly tanking. Wiz have been tanking since last year. Pistons just suck and the Hornets can’t stay healthy.

I even think the Spurs, while much better, won’t see a significant improvement in their win total just because the West is so strong. And the Clips are just a Kawhi injury from collapsing.

There will be a lot of competition for those top picks this year.

[JB7]

That is the neat part of all this parity. You don't necessarily have to begin the szn in the gutter hoping for the 82 game szn to end. The Hawks won 9 more games than us & won the lottery last yr

This year will be much different than last season. Because the draft was so weak at the top end last season, teams didn’t have reason to tank hard. With a deeper draft this year, already there are 7 teams (Jazz, Blazers, Nets, Wiz, Bulls, Hornets, Pistons) that look like they will be tanking hard this season, and that is not counting the teams that might have a key injury and decide to tank (such as the Griz last year).

The only teams that are actually tanking are the Nets and the Wizards. The other teams are just young and inexperienced and based on that will lose games to better teams. We fall under that category.

I think the Blazers and Jazz are trying to tank, as well as the Bulls.

[ConSarnit]

The role players we have will be better than last season. Dick, Poeltl, Mitchell, Brown, Fernando, Olynyk and even Shead and Mogbo are better than what we had last year. Barnes wasn't meant to be a role player. Then players like Flynn, Trent, Schroeder and others lacked role player skills like shooting, defense, or passing and playing within an offense.

Mogbo
Olynyk
Brown
Walter
Mitchell

Achiuwa
Young
McDaniels
Trent
Flynn

We are better at every back up position.

I think when we had bench mob 1 we layered that onto Lowry - Derozan. Two allstars. Bench mob 2 merges into no such thing. Like it or not that equals tanking. Strategic tanking and hard reality tanking. They will call it expedited rebuilding. The question should be will Darko be around long enough to see this group compete... I hope so.

Barnes will be an all star again if he improves from last season. Then we have Barrett and IQ who are knocking on that door.

The best chance of us having a bench mob would be Mogbo and JKW taking us by surprise. Brown, Mitchell, and Olynyk are vets and should be solid. The other two would be the X factors.

I think our bench could really suck next year. There’s a real chance none of Ja’Kobe, Mogbo, Mitchell or Brown are positive contributors. JKW and Mogbo were non-lotto picks in a bad draft. Any dip in Mitchell’s shooting and he’s a D+no3, non-creator backup pg (ie. Not an NBA player). Brown could check out again. Relying on any of the rookies (or Mitchell imo) seems like a bad bet.

[Johnston]

The role players we have will be better than last season. Dick, Poeltl, Mitchell, Brown, Fernando, Olynyk and even Shead and Mogbo are better than what we had last year. Barnes wasn't meant to be a role player. Then players like Flynn, Trent, Schroeder and others lacked role player skills like shooting, defense, or passing and playing within an offense.

Mogbo
Olynyk
Brown
Walter
Mitchell

Achiuwa
Young
McDaniels
Trent
Flynn

We are better at every back up position.

I love the positivity but nothing I see on current bench is better right now than the past season outside of "potential”. Olynyk is thad 2.0 at this point, our draft picks from this past season will likely be Gleagers for the year. Brown will be forced to play out position due to having too many guards. Mitchell is a bit of a wildcard but no one outside of raps fans think he is an NBA player at the moment.

[Thaddy]

I think when we had bench mob 1 we layered that onto Lowry - Derozan. Two allstars. Bench mob 2 merges into no such thing. Like it or not that equals tanking. Strategic tanking and hard reality tanking. They will call it expedited rebuilding. The question should be will Darko be around long enough to see this group compete... I hope so.

Barnes will be an all star again if he improves from last season. Then we have Barrett and IQ who are knocking on that door.

The best chance of us having a bench mob would be Mogbo and JKW taking us by surprise. Brown, Mitchell, and Olynyk are vets and should be solid. The other two would be the X factors.

I think our bench could really suck next year. There’s a real chance none of Ja’Kobe, Mogbo, Mitchell or Brown are positive contributors. JKW and Mogbo were non-lotto picks in a bad draft. Any dip in Mitchell’s shooting and he’s a D+no3, non-creator backup pg (ie. Not an NBA player). Brown could check out again. Relying on any of the rookies (or Mitchell imo) seems like a bad bet.

Brown was recently one of the best roleplayers in the league prior to coming here. Olynyk is one of the better stretch bigs in the league who can be used as a secondary hub. These two will be the core bench pieces.

Then you have Mitchell and Fernando who are capable rotation levels guys. We have them in a position where its make it or break it for them.

Those 4 are reasonably expected to give us a top 20 bench, that isn't a huge ask I'm basically saying don't be the top ten worst. The prospects like Shead, Carlson, and Mogbo are older and will need to provide something. The production stats of Mogbo make it clear he's an impactful player and his history is interesting enough for us to take a flyer. Shead is a cheaper Mitchell, who is definitely a NBA player.

Brown would be played in his position at shooting guard.

Fernando
Olynyk
Barnes
Brown
Mitchell

We probably stagger Barnes again and use this type of line up. That is at least in the top 20.

[Scase]

Barnes will be an all star again if he improves from last season. Then we have Barrett and IQ who are knocking on that door.

The best chance of us having a bench mob would be Mogbo and JKW taking us by surprise. Brown, Mitchell, and Olynyk are vets and should be solid. The other two would be the X factors.

I think our bench could really suck next year. There’s a real chance none of Ja’Kobe, Mogbo, Mitchell or Brown are positive contributors. JKW and Mogbo were non-lotto picks in a bad draft. Any dip in Mitchell’s shooting and he’s a D+no3, non-creator backup pg (ie. Not an NBA player). Brown could check out again. Relying on any of the rookies (or Mitchell imo) seems like a bad bet.

Brown was recently one of the best roleplayers in the league prior to coming here. Olynyk is one of the better stretch bigs in the league who can be used as a secondary hub. These two will be the core bench pieces.

Then you have Mitchell and Fernando who are capable rotation levels guys. We have them in a position where its make it or break it for them.

Those 4 are reasonably expected to give us a top 20 bench, that isn't a huge ask I'm basically saying don't be the top ten worst. The prospects like Shead, Carlson, and Mogbo are older and will need to provide something. The production stats of Mogbo make it clear he's an impactful player and his history is interesting enough for us to take a flyer. Shead is a cheaper Mitchell, who is definitely a NBA player.

Brown would be played in his position at shooting guard.

Fernando
Olynyk
Barnes
Brown
Mitchell

We probably stagger Barnes again and use this type of line up. That is at least in the top 20.

Brown, despite how much everyone is claiming he has only sucked here, put up the exact same performance and efficiency as he did in Indiana last year. He has not been "one of the best roleplayers in the league" since he was playing with a multi MVP.

Olynyk is just cooked, period. Dude is old, slow, undersized, and shot horrifically while here.

Mitchell is barely an NBA level player, and I would argue he isn't. He's a moderately better Ochai. Who also isn't an NBA level player.

Fernando is a meh, and the rest of our "depth" are a bunch of rookies picked in the second round of one of the weakest drafts in decades. Some of them might actually turn into legit NBA players, but expecting that in their rookie season is nuts.

[Dalek]

The Raptors have 30.5 wins as the most common odds on betting sights. If we end up there which is a strong possibility, that is top five worst in the NBA.

We just need to break into top three to have a real shot at Flagg which only would take sitting out Barnes or trading Poeltl to tank.

[ConSarnit]

Barnes will be an all star again if he improves from last season. Then we have Barrett and IQ who are knocking on that door.

The best chance of us having a bench mob would be Mogbo and JKW taking us by surprise. Brown, Mitchell, and Olynyk are vets and should be solid. The other two would be the X factors.

I think our bench could really suck next year. There’s a real chance none of Ja’Kobe, Mogbo, Mitchell or Brown are positive contributors. JKW and Mogbo were non-lotto picks in a bad draft. Any dip in Mitchell’s shooting and he’s a D+no3, non-creator backup pg (ie. Not an NBA player). Brown could check out again. Relying on any of the rookies (or Mitchell imo) seems like a bad bet.

Brown was recently one of the best roleplayers in the league prior to coming here. Olynyk is one of the better stretch bigs in the league who can be used as a secondary hub. These two will be the core bench pieces.

Then you have Mitchell and Fernando who are capable rotation levels guys. We have them in a position where its make it or break it for them.

Those 4 are reasonably expected to give us a top 20 bench, that isn't a huge ask I'm basically saying don't be the top ten worst. The prospects like Shead, Carlson, and Mogbo are older and will need to provide something. The production stats of Mogbo make it clear he's an impactful player and his history is interesting enough for us to take a flyer. Shead is a cheaper Mitchell, who is definitely a NBA player.

Brown would be played in his position at shooting guard.

Fernando
Olynyk
Barnes
Brown
Mitchell

We probably stagger Barnes again and use this type of line up. That is at least in the top 20.

I disagree that Bruno and Mitchell are capable rotation guys. Mitchell has seen his minutes reduced every year. Fernando has bounced around a lot. Neither of these guys have ever topped out at anything more than a 10th man so far. Hopefully one of them can become more consistent but it hasn’t looked good for either so far. Outside of Olynyk and Brown (if he tries) everyone is a wildcard. The bench lineup you are suggesting is also sort of terrible offensively. Olynyk is the only plus shooter.

[Chandan]

I was saying easy relative to getting three all stars, one of which is an mvp level. But the fact they couldn’t put functional depth around Pascal, Fred and OG is in part due to none of those three being mvp level which is why they had to pull the plug and should have sooner. Again , this is all extremely hypothetical but players like Brown,Yak, Dick, Mitchell even would all be way better contributors with a
player at an MVP level.

Ah yeah I got you, I agree, comparatively easy. That said, everyone likes to constantly gush about how Siakam was an All NBA/AS player, and FVV was an AS player, and that OG was an All defence level player but didn't get respect due to being in Canada, and while thats not MVP level + 2x AS, it's not that far off.

I agree they should've pulled the plug ages ago, but they weren't a terrible team, and they should've had a WAY better bench behind them. The FO just failed miserably at it, so the expectation they would fail to do so again, isn't that far fetched.

Ujiri tried to bridge from fvv/pascal to Barnes but he had to do a hard reset

That would be a bridge going to mediocrity from mediocrity. Thank god the situation forced a tank.

[WuTang_CMB]

Watch on YouTube

[Scase]

Watch on YouTube

Man, I am pretty down on this roster, but even I wouldn't say 21 wins lol. Hell must be freezing over, cause Doug is not speaking nonsense for once.

The wait and see approach isn't terrible, but if they stumble out of the gate, you gotta pull the cord ASAP cause this team needs talent.

[Basketball_Jones]

This year will be much different than last season. Because the draft was so weak at the top end last season, teams didn’t have reason to tank hard. With a deeper draft this year, already there are 7 teams (Jazz, Blazers, Nets, Wiz, Bulls, Hornets, Pistons) that look like they will be tanking hard this season, and that is not counting the teams that might have a key injury and decide to tank (such as the Griz last year).

Each and every one of those teams were in the exact same position last yr to start the szn. Hornets aren't even tanking either this year, and the Bulls r bad cuz they're the Bulls.

The Nets and Bulls are significantly worse, and clearly tanking. Blazers and Jazz are clearly tanking. Wiz have been tanking since last year. Pistons just suck and the Hornets can’t stay healthy.

I even think the Spurs, while much better, won’t see a significant improvement in their win total just because the West is so strong. And the Clips are just a Kawhi injury from collapsing.

There will be a lot of competition for those top picks this year.

Yeah we’ll probably fall into that 8-10 pick range and likely in a play-in game. Thankfully there is no chance this team makes it through the play-in only to get cooked by the Celtics. As usual we’ll have to hope for a little luck with the ping pong balls to move up.