When did Larry Bird actually hurt his back?

[Cavsfansince84]

I think an under discussed issue about Bird was his father’s suicide. Bird tells a story of his father seriously injuring his foot/ankle and it swoll up bad and turned colors. The next day Bird helped his dad shove his foot in his work boot and lace it up, because dad couldn’t do it alone. His dad then when to work his shift.

Somewhere in these things is where it comes from IMO. It’s based on trauma. It takes his competitive fire out of any normal range, even for top world class athletes. It puts him into a sphere where he’d do things like play through the chance of paralysis or death threats. My point is, it can’t be measured against people that don’t have mental health and/or trauma issues.

A slightly different way to look at it…normal person can’t out narcissist a narcissist no matter how hard they try. Because for a narcissist there’s no bottom or boundary. Similarly a normal athlete can’t get to Jordan or Bird’s level.

I knew about the link to his dad since the 80's or whenever but I think on the flip side of guys like Bird/MJ who have an almost pathological competitive streak is that its not always going to be the best way of going about winning in a team setting. I'd agree that it added to Bird's toughness level(though it could also be said that his need to play through pain also may have cost him some of his prime) but there's a point where being like that will burn out your teammates and I think we saw it happen with Kobe a couple of times where his teammates had just had enough of it.

[TrueLAfan]

Well, Bird doesn't have a psychotic level of drive or toughness. There are contempoaries who I rate above him in that regard. I don’t want to derail this into an MJ thread—because there are plenty of those. And I think there are similarities in the mental makeup and, yes, “toughness” of Larry Bird and Michael Jordan. But there are also big differences.

(Quick sidebar: A lot of this is taken and modified from something I posted on here over a decade ago. But I believe it even more today. And, yes, a lot of it is “psychological” and without measurable data points. But it’s what I think.)

Bird may have been an even colder dude than MJ when it came to self-reflection but it was tempered (much) more by some joy. They shared a type of confidence, but approached it differently. Every time Michael Jordan stepped onto the basketball court, he thought he was the best player there. Every time. Nobody close. He didn't think anybody could stop him. He knew people would try and he was 2-3 steps ahead in terms of planning how to break them down on the court and break them mentally. You can't get a better mentality for the alpha player on the team. The type of domination Michael Jordan sought and achieved was part of his basic personality. It has gotten him into trouble at times off the court. It made him one of the greatest players of all time on the court.

Bird was driven to excel, maybe/probably as much as Jordan. He was equally willing to sacrifice himself. So, yeah, Bird was physically hard on himself, but despite being kind of a private guy, he was a genuine and friendly guy. But—and this will be a little controversial, but I’ll say it—there was an element of fear and insecurity in Jordan’s self makeup that Bird just didn’t have. Have a look at how many games Michael Jordan missed between his third season and the final championship Bulls season. Seven. Part of that was luck, part of that was the drive to succeed he shared with Bird--but part of it was sheer fury and internalized fear about missing games and losing his standing. He wanted to dominate because he was afraid not to.

This made Jordan kind of an a$$ as a person and teammate—but who do you want on your team? The nice guy, or the best player? Teammates forgave MJ because he was as hard on himself as he was on others. You don't have that kind of intensity without paying a price. Jordan’s anger—at himself, at his teammates, at whatever his circumstances were—spilled over all the time. Bird had some of that, but not as much self-loathing, not as much fear of displacement in the hierarchy. His toughness was physically destructive, and occasionally mentally hard on himself. Jordan’s was actually, IMO, self-destructive in many ways. Too many ways. People were surprised about some of the anger and cruelty and pettiness at his HOF induction speech. I wasn't. MJ was true to himself. He really is like that. That fear and pettiness drives some of his extraordinary outcomes … but the cost has been very high.

All of the ATG players had and have a sense of achievement at being so good. Jordan had less of that sense than any other great player. I don't think any great player took less true joy in success than Michael Jordan. Sure he was satisfied...but that was, literally, what he expected of himself. He seemed to always feel threatened by even the thought of complacency; to maintain that level of intensity must have psychologically murderous. I can see how a baseball vacation—because that's what it was; a vacation—would be critical for the well-being—even sanity—of someone like that. MJ was harder on himself mentally than almost any player—with the possible exception of Jerry West. When does that “toughness” cross over into a type of psychosis? And is it desirable—or even “toughness”—at that point?

[Ferulci]

Well, Bird doesn't have a psychotic level of drive or toughness. There are contempoaries who I rate above him in that regard. I don’t want to derail this into an MJ thread—because there are plenty of those. And I think there are similarities in the mental makeup and, yes, “toughness” of Larry Bird and Michael Jordan. But there are also big differences.

(Quick sidebar: A lot of this is taken and modified from something I posted on here over a decade ago. But I believe it even more today. And, yes, a lot of it is “psychological” and without measurable data points. But it’s what I think.)

Bird may have been an even colder dude than MJ when it came to self-reflection but it was tempered (much) more by some joy. They shared a type of confidence, but approached it differently. Every time Michael Jordan stepped onto the basketball court, he thought he was the best player there. Every time. Nobody close. He didn't think anybody could stop him. He knew people would try and he was 2-3 steps ahead in terms of planning how to break them down on the court and break them mentally. You can't get a better mentality for the alpha player on the team. The type of domination Michael Jordan sought and achieved was part of his basic personality. It has gotten him into trouble at times off the court. It made him one of the greatest players of all time on the court.

Bird was driven to excel, maybe/probably as much as Jordan. He was equally willing to sacrifice himself. So, yeah, Bird was physically hard on himself, but despite being kind of a private guy, he was a genuine and friendly guy. But—and this will be a little controversial, but I’ll say it—there was an element of fear and insecurity in Jordan’s self makeup that Bird just didn’t have. Have a look at how many games Michael Jordan missed between his third season and the final championship Bulls season. Seven. Part of that was luck, part of that was the drive to succeed he shared with Bird--but part of it was sheer fury and internalized fear about missing games and losing his standing. He wanted to dominate because he was afraid not to.

This made Jordan kind of an a$$ as a person and teammate—but who do you want on your team? The nice guy, or the best player? Teammates forgave MJ because he was as hard on himself as he was on others. You don't have that kind of intensity without paying a price. Jordan’s anger—at himself, at his teammates, at whatever his circumstances were—spilled over all the time. Bird had some of that, but not as much self-loathing, not as much fear of displacement in the hierarchy. His toughness was physically destructive, and occasionally mentally hard on himself. Jordan’s was actually, IMO, self-destructive in many ways. Too many ways. People were surprised about some of the anger and cruelty and pettiness at his HOF induction speech. I wasn't. MJ was true to himself. He really is like that. That fear and pettiness drives some of his extraordinary outcomes … but the cost has been very high.

All of the ATG players had and have a sense of achievement at being so good. Jordan had less of that sense than any other great player. I don't think any great player took less true joy in success than Michael Jordan. Sure he was satisfied...but that was, literally, what he expected of himself. He seemed to always feel threatened by even the thought of complacency; to maintain that level of intensity must have psychologically murderous. I can see how a baseball vacation—because that's what it was; a vacation—would be critical for the well-being—even sanity—of someone like that. MJ was harder on himself mentally than almost any player—with the possible exception of Jerry West. When does that “toughness” cross over into a type of psychosis? And is it desirable—or even “toughness”—at that point?

Amazing post.

[165bows]

Regarding paralysis, obviously any player "could" be paralyzed from some accident and I haven't seen the sources, the world today isn't the same as it was in the 1980s...

... I'd be surprised if team doctors and teams signed off on a player playing with significant risk of paralysis.

Paralysis isn't the only (or even close to the first) cause of spine related disability. People are reading a bit too much into what he was saying there.

[165bows]

Well, Bird doesn't have a psychotic level of drive or toughness. There are contempoaries who I rate above him in that regard. I don’t want to derail this into an MJ thread—because there are plenty of those. And I think there are similarities in the mental makeup and, yes, “toughness” of Larry Bird and Michael Jordan. But there are also big differences.

(Quick sidebar: A lot of this is taken and modified from something I posted on here over a decade ago. But I believe it even more today. And, yes, a lot of it is “psychological” and without measurable data points. But it’s what I think.)

Bird may have been an even colder dude than MJ when it came to self-reflection but it was tempered (much) more by some joy. They shared a type of confidence, but approached it differently. Every time Michael Jordan stepped onto the basketball court, he thought he was the best player there. Every time. Nobody close. He didn't think anybody could stop him. He knew people would try and he was 2-3 steps ahead in terms of planning how to break them down on the court and break them mentally. You can't get a better mentality for the alpha player on the team. The type of domination Michael Jordan sought and achieved was part of his basic personality. It has gotten him into trouble at times off the court. It made him one of the greatest players of all time on the court.

Bird was driven to excel, maybe/probably as much as Jordan. He was equally willing to sacrifice himself. So, yeah, Bird was physically hard on himself, but despite being kind of a private guy, he was a genuine and friendly guy. But—and this will be a little controversial, but I’ll say it—there was an element of fear and insecurity in Jordan’s self makeup that Bird just didn’t have. Have a look at how many games Michael Jordan missed between his third season and the final championship Bulls season. Seven. Part of that was luck, part of that was the drive to succeed he shared with Bird--but part of it was sheer fury and internalized fear about missing games and losing his standing. He wanted to dominate because he was afraid not to.

This made Jordan kind of an a$$ as a person and teammate—but who do you want on your team? The nice guy, or the best player? Teammates forgave MJ because he was as hard on himself as he was on others. You don't have that kind of intensity without paying a price. Jordan’s anger—at himself, at his teammates, at whatever his circumstances were—spilled over all the time. Bird had some of that, but not as much self-loathing, not as much fear of displacement in the hierarchy. His toughness was physically destructive, and occasionally mentally hard on himself. Jordan’s was actually, IMO, self-destructive in many ways. Too many ways. People were surprised about some of the anger and cruelty and pettiness at his HOF induction speech. I wasn't. MJ was true to himself. He really is like that. That fear and pettiness drives some of his extraordinary outcomes … but the cost has been very high.

All of the ATG players had and have a sense of achievement at being so good. Jordan had less of that sense than any other great player. I don't think any great player took less true joy in success than Michael Jordan. Sure he was satisfied...but that was, literally, what he expected of himself. He seemed to always feel threatened by even the thought of complacency; to maintain that level of intensity must have psychologically murderous. I can see how a baseball vacation—because that's what it was; a vacation—would be critical for the well-being—even sanity—of someone like that. MJ was harder on himself mentally than almost any player—with the possible exception of Jerry West. When does that “toughness” cross over into a type of psychosis? And is it desirable—or even “toughness”—at that point?

Amazing post.

Yeah it is some really interesting points - Jordan did seem to have that anger, and perhaps fear and pettiness. I think Bird was pretty hard an people as well though not to the same extent. But his was a sort of mockery and "I'm going to show you how it is" vibe as opposed to like he said, Jordan's, I'm going to destroy mentality.