Rocky business -- UTA/DEN

[Mavrelous]

DEN Sends:
Jamal Murray + Zeke Nnaji

UTA Sends:
Collin Sexton + John Collins + lowest of UTA/CLE/MIN/LAL 1st in 27.

Why?
DEN goes for lower ceiling safe commodity, banks on Jokic maximizing his talents, he's not the tough shot maker from mid range Murray is, but he's comparable in other areas, he's also not the P&R operator Murray can be (not that Murray is great at it).
Collins is a backup 4/5, and salary ballast next season.
UTA gambles on another star next to Markannen dirt cheap.

[babyjax13]

This is a weird trade where Denver definitely shouldn't do it, but I also wouldn't want to do it because I have very little faith in Murray and don't think he is a max player. If he has another crazy playoff run he could easily prove me wrong, but I'd rather stick to the slow grind of a rebuild. Perhaps Murray could return more than we send, though, if that's the case you might do it to flip him --- but then we are sacrificing draft position too, so...

[Mavrelous]

This is a weird trade where Denver definitely shouldn't do it, but I also wouldn't want to do it because I have very little faith in Murray and don't think he is a max player.

That's exactly why there is upside for both sides.
Murray is a better player than Sexton, Sexton is younger, healthier, and doesn't have a history of coming into season out of shape.
I think it's a gamble worth taking for the Jazz at this price, and the certainty of Sexton, with Collins next year, along with the return of Collins expiring + the pick next year, DEN should also do it.

[babyjax13]

This is a weird trade where Denver definitely shouldn't do it, but I also wouldn't want to do it because I have very little faith in Murray and don't think he is a max player.

That's exactly why there is upside for both sides.
Murray is a better player than Sexton, Sexton is younger, healthier, and doesn't have a history of coming into season out of shape.
I think it's a gamble worth taking for the Jazz at this price, and the certainty of Sexton, with Collins next year, along with the return of Collins expiring + the pick next year, DEN should also do it.

If it works out Utahs pick is worse and this is a really good draft, so I think there is more to it than Murray's ceiling. And what is the ceiling to a Lauri-Murray team? The 10th seed? Lauri is a good robin, I think Murray can only play that role because of Jokic. Maybe it is worth it at this price, but I have major reservations and think it probably is not.

[BelgradeNugget]

Serious trade offer here would have been

DEN Sends:
Jamal Murray + Zeke Nnaji

UTA Sends:
Collin Sexton + John Collins + lowest of UTA/CLE/MIN/LAL 1st in 27. UTA 1st in 27+ CLE 1st in 27 + LAL 1st in 27

Why: good teams are good because they have good players. Bad teams are bad because they have bad players. Utah is bad. Nuggets are good. Collin Sexton and John Collins are in Utah because nobody wanted them. Murray was better in WCS in 2023 than LeBron or AD. This POs he was injured, still hit 2 game winners.

Anyway still no.

[Mavrelous]

Serious trade offer here would have been

DEN Sends:
Jamal Murray + Zeke Nnaji

UTA Sends:
Collin Sexton + John Collins + lowest of UTA/CLE/MIN/LAL 1st in 27. UTA 1st in 27+ CLE 1st in 27 + LAL 1st in 27

Why: good teams are good because they have good players. Bad teams are bad because they have bad players. Utah is bad. Nuggets are good. Collin Sexton and John Collins are in Utah because nobody wanted them. Murray was better in WCS in 2023 than LeBron or AD. This POs he was injured, still hit 2 game winners.

Anyway still no.

Murray's injury history, his drop off against the Wolves, and his drop off in the Olympics hurt his value.
DEN can keep him, but there is a possibility he isn't healthy again in the PO, he was only in 2.5/5, or they can go for lower ceiling safer options.

[BelgradeNugget]

Serious trade offer here would have been

DEN Sends:
Jamal Murray + Zeke Nnaji

UTA Sends:
Collin Sexton + John Collins + lowest of UTA/CLE/MIN/LAL 1st in 27. UTA 1st in 27+ CLE 1st in 27 + LAL 1st in 27

Why: good teams are good because they have good players. Bad teams are bad because they have bad players. Utah is bad. Nuggets are good. Collin Sexton and John Collins are in Utah because nobody wanted them. Murray was better in WCS in 2023 than LeBron or AD. This POs he was injured, still hit 2 game winners.

Anyway still no.

Murray's injury history, his drop off against the Wolves, and his drop off in the Olympics hurt his value.
DEN can keep him, but there is a possibility he isn't healthy again in the PO, he was only in 2.5/5, or they can go for lower ceiling safer options.

I partialy undrestand your position. You go with worst case scenario. But you could have gone this way with Tatum after finals against GSW, Jaylen Brown after last year POs, Luka was bad in the 1st round this POs...

Murray had 1 big injury and few smaller ones. He is far less injury prone then Embiid, Kawhi, PG, AD, KD...
He also has a history of rising the level of his play in the POs. He was 2nd oprion on championship winning team. That is why I wouldn't accept offer of mantioned players and 3 1st round picks for him.

[nomansland]

Serious trade offer here would have been

DEN Sends:
Jamal Murray + Zeke Nnaji

UTA Sends:
Collin Sexton + John Collins + lowest of UTA/CLE/MIN/LAL 1st in 27. UTA 1st in 27+ CLE 1st in 27 + LAL 1st in 27

Why: good teams are good because they have good players. Bad teams are bad because they have bad players. Utah is bad. Nuggets are good. Collin Sexton and John Collins are in Utah because nobody wanted them. Murray was better in WCS in 2023 than LeBron or AD. This POs he was injured, still hit 2 game winners.

Anyway still no.

Murray's injury history, his drop off against the Wolves, and his drop off in the Olympics hurt his value.
DEN can keep him, but there is a possibility he isn't healthy again in the PO, he was only in 2.5/5, or they can go for lower ceiling safer options.

I don't think anyone really cares about the Olympics. Plenty of good players have underperformed in that tournament. It's a different animal than the NBA.

Murray's health is really the main concern. It's perpetually an issue and the dude refuses to take enough time off to get things straight.

[Mavrelous]

Serious trade offer here would have been

DEN Sends:
Jamal Murray + Zeke Nnaji

UTA Sends:
Collin Sexton + John Collins + lowest of UTA/CLE/MIN/LAL 1st in 27. UTA 1st in 27+ CLE 1st in 27 + LAL 1st in 27

Why: good teams are good because they have good players. Bad teams are bad because they have bad players. Utah is bad. Nuggets are good. Collin Sexton and John Collins are in Utah because nobody wanted them. Murray was better in WCS in 2023 than LeBron or AD. This POs he was injured, still hit 2 game winners.

Anyway still no.

Murray's injury history, his drop off against the Wolves, and his drop off in the Olympics hurt his value.
DEN can keep him, but there is a possibility he isn't healthy again in the PO, he was only in 2.5/5, or they can go for lower ceiling safer options.

I partialy undrestand your position. You go with worst case scenario. But you could have gone this way with Tatum after finals against GSW, Jaylen Brown after last year POs, Luka was bad in the 1st round this POs...

Murray had 1 big injury and few smaller ones. He is far less injury prone then Embiid, Kawhi, PG, AD, KD...
He also has a history of rising the level of his play in the POs. He was 2nd oprion on championship winning team. That is why I wouldn't accept offer of mantioned players and 3 1st round picks for him.

I don't think you understood, the equivalent to Murray is Kyrie not Luka, Luka/Jokic are the cornerstone, Murray/Kyrie are the Robins, if the Robis is too much risk, it's easier decision to move on.
Murray doesn't fetch 3 1st over Sexton.

[Godaddycurse]

Murray's injury history, his drop off against the Wolves, and his drop off in the Olympics hurt his value.
DEN can keep him, but there is a possibility he isn't healthy again in the PO, he was only in 2.5/5, or they can go for lower ceiling safer options.

I partialy undrestand your position. You go with worst case scenario. But you could have gone this way with Tatum after finals against GSW, Jaylen Brown after last year POs, Luka was bad in the 1st round this POs...

Murray had 1 big injury and few smaller ones. He is far less injury prone then Embiid, Kawhi, PG, AD, KD...
He also has a history of rising the level of his play in the POs. He was 2nd oprion on championship winning team. That is why I wouldn't accept offer of mantioned players and 3 1st round picks for him.

I don't think you understood, the equivalent to Murray is Kyrie not Luka, Luka/Jokic are the cornerstone, Murray/Kyrie are the Robins, if the Robis is too much risk, it's easier decision to move on.
Murray doesn't fetch 3 1st over Sexton.

Murray doesnt fetch 3 1sts by himself as an expiring imo. I have him worth at most the same as Ingram. Good player expectign the max dont have much of a market in this league

[BelgradeNugget]

Murray's injury history, his drop off against the Wolves, and his drop off in the Olympics hurt his value.
DEN can keep him, but there is a possibility he isn't healthy again in the PO, he was only in 2.5/5, or they can go for lower ceiling safer options.

I partialy undrestand your position. You go with worst case scenario. But you could have gone this way with Tatum after finals against GSW, Jaylen Brown after last year POs, Luka was bad in the 1st round this POs...

Murray had 1 big injury and few smaller ones. He is far less injury prone then Embiid, Kawhi, PG, AD, KD...
He also has a history of rising the level of his play in the POs. He was 2nd oprion on championship winning team. That is why I wouldn't accept offer of mantioned players and 3 1st round picks for him.

I don't think you understood, the equivalent to Murray is Kyrie not Luka, Luka/Jokic are the cornerstone, Murray/Kyrie are the Robins, if the Robis is too much risk, it's easier decision to move on.
Murray doesn't fetch 3 1st over Sexton.

I pretty much understood. Murray is Robin. I just wanted to point you can't undervalue Murray so much because of a bad series against Minnesota. Last POs he was much better than AD. Imagin if offer for AD or Jaylen Brown or Kyrie was Collin Sexton + John Collins + 1 1st.

About injury history he missed 2 POs because of ACL tear. That is it. 1 big injury. Never had any other significant one. What do you think of Collin Sexton + John Collins + 1 1st, for PG for instance.

Markannen had good numbers, Sexton had good numbers, so did John Collins. Why was Utah so bad then? Because there is a big differance between puting numbers on tanking team and helping contender win. We don't know is Sexton good enough to even have a role on contending team. We know John Collins couldn't help even mediocre team like Atalanta become POs team, they were still play-inn team with him.

[Mavrelous]

What do you think of Collin Sexton + John Collins + 1 1st, for PG for instance.

The Clippers just decided to let PG walk for nothing at all, because they though the risk isn't worth it...

I just wanted to point you can't undervalue Murray so much because of a bad series against Minnesota. Last POs he was much better than AD. Imagin if offer for AD or Jaylen Brown or Kyrie was Collin Sexton + John Collins + 1 1st.

If Murray had no upside, he wouldn't be worth a thing, right? The question isn't "is Murray a better player than Sexton", the answer is he is, the question is, given he had another disappointing PO, after missing 2 with ACL, and now looking for max contract, is it wiser to go for 80% of Murray, but more reliable health wise? Maybe the Jokic factor was bigger than we though with Murray?

It's a trade off, between floor and ceiling, given we're discussing the Robin of the team and the Batman is in his prime, I think it's a worthy trade off.

[BelgradeNugget]

I partialy undrestand your position. You go with worst case scenario. But you could have gone this way with Tatum after finals against GSW, Jaylen Brown after last year POs, Luka was bad in the 1st round this POs...

Murray had 1 big injury and few smaller ones. He is far less injury prone then Embiid, Kawhi, PG, AD, KD...
He also has a history of rising the level of his play in the POs. He was 2nd oprion on championship winning team. That is why I wouldn't accept offer of mantioned players and 3 1st round picks for him.

I don't think you understood, the equivalent to Murray is Kyrie not Luka, Luka/Jokic are the cornerstone, Murray/Kyrie are the Robins, if the Robis is too much risk, it's easier decision to move on.
Murray doesn't fetch 3 1st over Sexton.

Murray doesnt fetch 3 1sts by himself as an expiring imo. I have him worth at most the same as Ingram. Good player expectign the max dont have much of a market in this league

There is a big difference between Murray and Ingram. Ingram played in 10 PO games. First round.
Denver with Murray never lost in the 1st round. Helped his team win championship as 2nd option. Averaged 32.5/6.3/5.3 shooting 53/41/95 in WCS last season.
NO is offering Ingram for trade. No one wants him. Denver is not offering Murray. So if you want him (and you can't get him anyway) you have to offer a fair price to even start conversation.

[BelgradeNugget]

What do you think of Collin Sexton + John Collins + 1 1st, for PG for instance.

The Clippers just decided to let PG walk for nothing at all, because they though the risk isn't worth it...

I just wanted to point you can't undervalue Murray so much because of a bad series against Minnesota. Last POs he was much better than AD. Imagin if offer for AD or Jaylen Brown or Kyrie was Collin Sexton + John Collins + 1 1st.

If Murray had no upside, he wouldn't be worth a thing, right? The question isn't "is Murray a better player than Sexton", the answer is he is, the question is, given he had another disappointing PO, after missing 2 with ACL, and now looking for max contract, is it wiser to go for 80% of Murray, but more reliable health wise? Maybe the Jokic factor was bigger than we though with Murray?

It's a trade off, between floor and ceiling, given we're discussing the Robin of the team and the Batman is in his prime, I think it's a worthy trade off.

This is a problem. Where do you get idea Sexton is 80% of Murray? Lavin is better than Murray by numbers right? Is Beal better than Murray. Ingram? PG never won anything as 2nd option, 76ers still paid him max. There are big boys that prove their worth in the playoffs and the other ones. For some reason all Nuggets except Jokic are pretty underated here. Jokic led Nuggets with Campazzo, Rivers, Green, AG to playoffs. It was gentlemans sweep. He needed MPJ to make it to the 2nd round without Murray. With Murray he made it to WCF ones and won it all the other.

Again Murray had 1 significant injury and missed time. What is risk/reward for Kawhi, Embiid, PG, KD, are they worth their contracts? They all had significant injuries multiple times. Embiid and Kawhi can't stay healthy in the playoffs year after year. And Murray had one big injury. Big difference.

[Mavrelous]

This is a problem. Where do you get idea Sexton is 80% of Murray? Lavin is better than Murray by numbers right? Is Beal better than Murray. Ingram? PG never won anything as 2nd option, 76ers still paid him max. There are big boys that prove their worth in the playoffs and the other ones. For some reason all Nuggets except Jokic are pretty underated here. Jokic led Nuggets with Campazzo, Rivers, Green, AG to playoffs. It was gentlemans sweep. He needed MPJ to make it to the 2nd round without Murray. With Murray he made it to WCF ones and won it all the other.

Skillset? 3 level scorer, can shoot off the dribble, quick 1st step and gets to the rim.
He is smaller, and hasn't shown the same ability for tough shot making.

I feel we're not getting our points across, I don't have confidence in Murray's health after the last PO and I'd explore other options, you clearly disagree, but my premise still stands...

Beal is even less reliable than Murray, more expensive and much older.
Ingram isn't the 3 pt shooter needed, nor the dribble penetration threat.
PG was passed on by his own team...

Again Murray had 1 significant injury and missed time. What is risk/reward for Kawhi, Embiid, PG, KD, are they worth their contracts? They all had significant injuries multiple times. Embiid and Kawhi can't stay healthy in the playoffs year after year. And Murray had one big injury. Big difference.

Your counterpoints are:
A guy who hasn't done anything in 5 years
A guy who is the only MVP winner to never get past the 2nd round
A guy his team let him go for free and were able to retain him
And a top 15 all time guy who except for his Achillis has been available and played well in all his PO?

What exactly is it you are arguing? Because you're kinda proving the point...

[hugepatsfan]

Murray has never had an all star caliber regular season.

He has availability concerns.

He's about to be mega-paid.

Just as often as he's stepped up in the playoffs (19-20, 22-23), he's shot poorly (18-19, 23-24).


Not suggesting DEN should move him, but the above factors IMO make the OP's offer fair. It's not feasible for DEN to trade him for that though.

[BelgradeNugget]

This is a problem. Where do you get idea Sexton is 80% of Murray? Lavin is better than Murray by numbers right? Is Beal better than Murray. Ingram? PG never won anything as 2nd option, 76ers still paid him max. There are big boys that prove their worth in the playoffs and the other ones. For some reason all Nuggets except Jokic are pretty underated here. Jokic led Nuggets with Campazzo, Rivers, Green, AG to playoffs. It was gentlemans sweep. He needed MPJ to make it to the 2nd round without Murray. With Murray he made it to WCF ones and won it all the other.

Skillset? 3 level scorer, can shoot off the dribble, quick 1st step and gets to the rim.
He is smaller, and hasn't shown the same ability for tough shot making.

I feel we're not getting our points across, I don't have confidence in Murray's health after the last PO and I'd explore other options, you clearly disagree, but my premise still stands...

Beal is even less reliable than Murray, more expensive and much older.
Ingram isn't the 3 pt shooter needed, nor the dribble penetration threat.
PG was passed on by his own team...

Again Murray had 1 significant injury and missed time. What is risk/reward for Kawhi, Embiid, PG, KD, are they worth their contracts? They all had significant injuries multiple times. Embiid and Kawhi can't stay healthy in the playoffs year after year. And Murray had one big injury. Big difference.

Your counterpoints are:
A guy who hasn't done anything in 5 years
A guy who is the only MVP winner to never get past the 2nd round
A guy his team let him go for free and were able to retain him
And a top 15 all time guy who except for his Achillis has been available and played well in all his PO?

What exactly is it you are arguing? Because you're kinda proving the point...

I'm proving a point that Sexton is maybe 20% of Murray. Simply by puting up stats you don't prove nothing. I pointed to other empty stats players. Sexton is maybe 80% of Lavin, Beal ect. He is not in the same league with Murray. He will be closer if he wins some games with his team. Utah has Markannen, Sexton and John Collins and won 31 games. You know who? They are bad.

Why are Sexton and John Collins on Utah when Ainge traded Beasly, Vanderbildt, Conley, Olynyk, Fontecchio...?
No body wanted them.

So KD 'except for his Achillis has been available and played well in all his PO'.
Murray 'except for his ACL tear has been available and played well in all his PO' but for you he is injury prone?
What is difference between the two regarding injury?

Oh, by the way I was trying to find Sexton's POs stats. NBA.com says no data avilable.

[BelgradeNugget]

Murray has never had an all star caliber regular season.

He has availability concerns.

He's about to be mega-paid.

Just as often as he's stepped up in the playoffs (19-20, 22-23), he's shot poorly (18-19, 23-24).


Not suggesting DEN should move him, but the above factors IMO make the OP's offer fair. It's not feasible for DEN to trade him for that though.

Murray shoot poorly in 18/19 playoffs when he was 22 years old, and in the last playoffs playing with injury. 2 of 4
Tatum shoot poorly in 18/19, 19/20, 20/21, 21/22, 23/24. That is 5 of 7

Murray in his first playoffs in 18/19 hit series ending shot against SA.
In his 2nd playoffs he helped Denver win 2x after being down 1-3
In his 3rd playoffs he was better than LeBron and AD in WCF, and better than Butler in the finals
In his last playoffs when he shoot poorly he hit 2 game winning shots against Lakers.


Should we compare their Conference finals numbers and finals numbers? Better not.
So if this Sexton + pick offer is so good maybe for some Boston player I don't know, you could offer somebody.

[youngcrev]

Murray's injury history, his drop off against the Wolves, and his drop off in the Olympics hurt his value.
DEN can keep him, but there is a possibility he isn't healthy again in the PO, he was only in 2.5/5, or they can go for lower ceiling safer options.

I partialy undrestand your position. You go with worst case scenario. But you could have gone this way with Tatum after finals against GSW, Jaylen Brown after last year POs, Luka was bad in the 1st round this POs...

Murray had 1 big injury and few smaller ones. He is far less injury prone then Embiid, Kawhi, PG, AD, KD...
He also has a history of rising the level of his play in the POs. He was 2nd oprion on championship winning team. That is why I wouldn't accept offer of mantioned players and 3 1st round picks for him.

I don't think you understood, the equivalent to Murray is Kyrie not Luka, Luka/Jokic are the cornerstone, Murray/Kyrie are the Robins, if the Robis is too much risk, it's easier decision to move on.
Murray doesn't fetch 3 1st over Sexton.

I think he would

In fact... I wouldn't be shocked if it was more to be honest. Not that it makes sense directionally for either team.

[shrink]

+1 for the title.

I struggle to really understand how good Murray is. He certainly has flashy moments, but there are often periods of poor play that require excuses. The one quality I really like about Murray is the way he can predict where and when a Jokic pass is going to come, and put him in a great spot. That’s valuable to Denver, but I question how Murray looks when Keynote George is the guy feeding him.

Plus .. throwing stuff on the court when he had his tantrums. Not sure UTA wants that.