2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation

[garrick]

Unless there's some tell all book like 10 years from now outlining all the **** that's went down with the end of Sarver days and beggining of the Ish era I won't really know how to properly judge James Jones as a GM. So many things are hard to gauge was was Jones idea or the owner.


Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

We can gauge Jones by the things he's said and done during the Sarver era but yeah during the Ishbia era he's just been essentially a yes man & it's obvious he's just doing the boss's bidding.

JJ is on the record as not liking to pick up talent in the draft & it was his decision to gut the scouting department and he has said that if he were picking in the draft and Devin Booker was available that he probably would not have drafted him.

His record with free agents has been mixed but while he had some success early on in his tenure in signing Oubre and Rubio and then trading both for CP3, after his initial success it looks like he just mailed it in and didn't make any serious attempt to build up the roster despite the warning signs that CP3 was breaking down and that we just didn't have a very deep bench.

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

[lilfishi22]

Read on Twitter

While I personally didn't love the prospects we chose, I think it's hard not to be impressed with the extra draft capital we were able to squeeze out while still landing the guys the front office had honed in on.

[bigfoot]

Read on Twitter

While I personally didn't love the prospects we chose, I think it's hard not to be impressed with the extra draft capital we were able to squeeze out while still landing the guys the front office had honed in on.

I trust this FO and head coach to pick high IQ and high work ethic players who have a chance to become role players at a minimum. I watched too many years of dumb/lazy players being drafted (Jackson, Chriss, Ayton, etc). Hardworking, high IQ players like Cam Johnson and Jalen Smith are both still in the league. The draft is a crap shoot but if the Suns hit on either of these rookies it is a win.

[Mulhollanddrive]

There's never a bad video in the off season

[garrick]

Read on Twitter

While I personally didn't love the prospects we chose, I think it's hard not to be impressed with the extra draft capital we were able to squeeze out while still landing the guys the front office had honed in on.

I trust this FO and head coach to pick high IQ and high work ethic players who have a chance to become role players at a minimum. I watched too many years of dumb/lazy players being drafted (Jackson, Chriss, Ayton, etc). Hardworking, high IQ players like Cam Johnson and Jalen Smith are both still in the league. The draft is a crap shoot but if the Suns hit on either of these rookies it is a win.

We will see if passing up on some promising rookies and playing the numbers game by trading down and getting more picks was worth it but typically 2nd round picks or late 1sts rarely last long in this league the further down you go in the draft.

It's also a little concerning that the front office were fixated on both Oso and Dunn and they just really didn't seem to give any other prospects serious consideration which makes me wonder how they settled on both when potentially better prospects were available even when we chose at #28.

So far Kolek, Collier, Holmes and Filipowski have had better showings in SL which doesn't really give me a sense of optimism about Dunn or Oso although I am more disappointed with Dunn since he was picked over Oso and he didn't have the kind of impact on the game a potential DPY you would expect to have on the game.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

While I personally didn't love the prospects we chose, I think it's hard not to be impressed with the extra draft capital we were able to squeeze out while still landing the guys the front office had honed in on.

I trust this FO and head coach to pick high IQ and high work ethic players who have a chance to become role players at a minimum. I watched too many years of dumb/lazy players being drafted (Jackson, Chriss, Ayton, etc). Hardworking, high IQ players like Cam Johnson and Jalen Smith are both still in the league. The draft is a crap shoot but if the Suns hit on either of these rookies it is a win.

We will see if passing up on some promising rookies and playing the numbers game by trading down and getting more picks was worth it but typically 2nd round picks or late 1sts rarely last long in this league the further down you go in the draft.

It's also a little concerning that the front office were fixated on both Oso and Dunn and they just really didn't seem to give any other prospects serious consideration which makes me wonder how they settled on both when potentially better prospects were available even when we chose at #28.

So far Kolek, Collier, Holmes and Filipowski have had better showings in SL which doesn't really give me a sense of optimism about Dunn or Oso although I am more disappointed with Dunn since he was picked over Oso and he didn't have the kind of impact on the game a potential DPY you would expect to have on the game.

Every Suns post-draft PR I've ever seen has shown our FO fixated on the players we ended up selecting. It's part of the hype machine. Who knows what was said outside the pieces they clipped together here.

OTOH - the practice of honing in on a particular guy regardless how things develop would seem to explain our draft history. Perhaps this is how most front offices operate. A draft selection is a multimillion dollar transaction with many interested parties, after all.

In any case, Dunn and Oso are very raw and I was surprised we went that direction on draft night, though not necessarily disappointed. Whomever we would draft that late would have to be a project anyways. These kids are athletes. Hopefully they can make something of their big opportunity.

[Saberestar]

Read on Twitter

[Saberestar]

What do you guys prefer as our second unit to start the season?

Monte, Grayson, Okogie, O'Neale and Plumlee.

OR

Monte, Grayson, O'Neale, Bol and Plumlee.

I was sold on Bol but I think we are gonna need Okogie's aggressive defense...so I have my doubts about it.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

What do you guys prefer as our second unit to start the season?

Monte, Grayson, Okogie, O'Neale and Plumlee.

OR

Monte, Grayson, O'Neale, Bol and Plumlee.

I was sold on Bol but I think we are gonna need Okogie's aggressive defense...so I have my doubts about it.

Here's their advanced stats from last year:

Morris: BPM 0.7, VORP 0.3, WS/48 .123, Net rating per 100 possessions (NRtg): +7
Allen: BPM 1.3, VORP 2.0, WS/48 .132, NRtg: +13
O'Neale: BPM 0.0, VORP 1.0, WS/48 .085*, NRtg: 0*
Okogie: BPM -0.5, VORP 0.4, WS/48 .104, NRtg: +5
Plumlee: BPM -0.8, VORP 0.2, WS/48 .146, NRtg: +12
Bol: BPM 2.1, VORP 0.5, WS/38 .168, NRtg: +18
*If you look only at his time on the Suns, O'Neale squeaks ahead of Okogie in WS/48 and Net Rating.

I must qualify by admitting that I don't understand any of this. Regardless, I just don't see how you exclude Bol Bol from the rotation unless his body can't handle it or he cracks under the pressure. Besides, Okogie's just holding a roster spot pending a midseason trade, right?

[lilfishi22]

While I personally didn't love the prospects we chose, I think it's hard not to be impressed with the extra draft capital we were able to squeeze out while still landing the guys the front office had honed in on.

I trust this FO and head coach to pick high IQ and high work ethic players who have a chance to become role players at a minimum. I watched too many years of dumb/lazy players being drafted (Jackson, Chriss, Ayton, etc). Hardworking, high IQ players like Cam Johnson and Jalen Smith are both still in the league. The draft is a crap shoot but if the Suns hit on either of these rookies it is a win.

We will see if passing up on some promising rookies and playing the numbers game by trading down and getting more picks was worth it but typically 2nd round picks or late 1sts rarely last long in this league the further down you go in the draft.

It's also a little concerning that the front office were fixated on both Oso and Dunn and they just really didn't seem to give any other prospects serious consideration which makes me wonder how they settled on both when potentially better prospects were available even when we chose at #28.

So far Kolek, Collier, Holmes and Filipowski have had better showings in SL which doesn't really give me a sense of optimism about Dunn or Oso although I am more disappointed with Dunn since he was picked over Oso and he didn't have the kind of impact on the game a potential DPY you would expect to have on the game.

To be fair and to give them the benefit of the doubt, we don't know what their big board looked like. Oso and Dunn may have been very high on their list, if not top 3 (leaving room for someone to drop), and those other guys may have just been behind them. They also only showed footage of them discussing Oso and Dunn, who were both available when we were picking so there wasn't a need to talk about anyone else.

Don't think it's fair to suggest we only ever considered Oso and Dunn

[lilfishi22]

Read on Twitter

Didn't realise we stretched Liddell as well. So it's basically $3.2m over the next 3 seasons then $3.1 for the following 4. hmmmmmm

[lilfishi22]

What do you guys prefer as our second unit to start the season?

Monte, Grayson, Okogie, O'Neale and Plumlee.

OR

Monte, Grayson, O'Neale, Bol and Plumlee.

I was sold on Bol but I think we are gonna need Okogie's aggressive defense...so I have my doubts about it.

Here's their advanced stats from last year:

Morris: BPM 0.7, VORP 0.3, WS/48 .123, Net rating per 100 possessions (NRtg): +7
Allen: BPM 1.3, VORP 2.0, WS/48 .132, NRtg: +13
O'Neale: BPM 0.0, VORP 1.0, WS/48 .085*, NRtg: 0*
Okogie: BPM -0.5, VORP 0.4, WS/48 .104, NRtg: +5
Plumlee: BPM -0.8, VORP 0.2, WS/48 .146, NRtg: +12
Bol: BPM 2.1, VORP 0.5, WS/38 .168, NRtg: +18
*If you look only at his time on the Suns, O'Neale squeaks ahead of Okogie in WS/48 and Net Rating.

I must qualify by admitting that I don't understand any of this. Regardless, I just don't see how you exclude Bol Bol from the rotation unless his body can't handle it or he cracks under the pressure. Besides, Okogie's just holding a roster spot pending a midseason trade, right?

Bol's breakout potential alone should warrant him some consistent minutes. He showed he can be efficient, productive and have a positive impact on the game post-ASW so it would be great to see him get more consistent minutes this upcoming season.

[garrick]

I trust this FO and head coach to pick high IQ and high work ethic players who have a chance to become role players at a minimum. I watched too many years of dumb/lazy players being drafted (Jackson, Chriss, Ayton, etc). Hardworking, high IQ players like Cam Johnson and Jalen Smith are both still in the league. The draft is a crap shoot but if the Suns hit on either of these rookies it is a win.

We will see if passing up on some promising rookies and playing the numbers game by trading down and getting more picks was worth it but typically 2nd round picks or late 1sts rarely last long in this league the further down you go in the draft.

It's also a little concerning that the front office were fixated on both Oso and Dunn and they just really didn't seem to give any other prospects serious consideration which makes me wonder how they settled on both when potentially better prospects were available even when we chose at #28.

So far Kolek, Collier, Holmes and Filipowski have had better showings in SL which doesn't really give me a sense of optimism about Dunn or Oso although I am more disappointed with Dunn since he was picked over Oso and he didn't have the kind of impact on the game a potential DPY you would expect to have on the game.

To be fair and to give them the benefit of the doubt, we don't know what their big board looked like. Oso and Dunn may have been very high on their list, if not top 3 (leaving room for someone to drop), and those other guys may have just been behind them. They also only showed footage of them discussing Oso and Dunn, who were both available when we were picking so there wasn't a need to talk about anyone else.

Don't think it's fair to suggest we only ever considered Oso and Dunn

For Dunn it seems like we were taking him no matter what because of what Ishbia told him on the call that they promised Dunn they would take him. Maybe it was just bogus platitudes but I don't really think he would say this just for the sake of it.

[lilfishi22]

We will see if passing up on some promising rookies and playing the numbers game by trading down and getting more picks was worth it but typically 2nd round picks or late 1sts rarely last long in this league the further down you go in the draft.

It's also a little concerning that the front office were fixated on both Oso and Dunn and they just really didn't seem to give any other prospects serious consideration which makes me wonder how they settled on both when potentially better prospects were available even when we chose at #28.

So far Kolek, Collier, Holmes and Filipowski have had better showings in SL which doesn't really give me a sense of optimism about Dunn or Oso although I am more disappointed with Dunn since he was picked over Oso and he didn't have the kind of impact on the game a potential DPY you would expect to have on the game.

To be fair and to give them the benefit of the doubt, we don't know what their big board looked like. Oso and Dunn may have been very high on their list, if not top 3 (leaving room for someone to drop), and those other guys may have just been behind them. They also only showed footage of them discussing Oso and Dunn, who were both available when we were picking so there wasn't a need to talk about anyone else.

Don't think it's fair to suggest we only ever considered Oso and Dunn

For Dunn it seems like we were taking him no matter what because of what Ishbia told him on the call that they promised Dunn they would take him. Maybe it was just bogus platitudes but I don't really think he would say this just for the sake of it.

Maybe they were really high on a bunch of other prospects at #22 but they were all gone by then and they felt #22 was too high for Dunn so they got/found an offer to trade down (and grabbed like three 2nd round picks as well) and Dunn was still there at #28. I'd be cheering too from a pure asset management perspective. Who knows, maybe Denver actually swooped in and saved us from ourselves by "forcing" us to not take Dunn that high.

Likewise with Oso, we seemed high on him but he wasn't going to last until the end of the draft but we found another trade to turn two late 2nds into a high 2nd which we used to get Oso. We probably didn't have much chance to get Oso if we didn't do the trade down the day before.

FWIW, I don't think promises are that big of a deal nor are they exactly legally binding. For all we know, plenty of promises are made but it would require higher level prospects to drop from their projected draft position.

[Saberestar]

What do you guys prefer as our second unit to start the season?

Monte, Grayson, Okogie, O'Neale and Plumlee.

OR

Monte, Grayson, O'Neale, Bol and Plumlee.

I was sold on Bol but I think we are gonna need Okogie's aggressive defense...so I have my doubts about it.

Here's their advanced stats from last year:

Morris: BPM 0.7, VORP 0.3, WS/48 .123, Net rating per 100 possessions (NRtg): +7
Allen: BPM 1.3, VORP 2.0, WS/48 .132, NRtg: +13
O'Neale: BPM 0.0, VORP 1.0, WS/48 .085*, NRtg: 0*
Okogie: BPM -0.5, VORP 0.4, WS/48 .104, NRtg: +5
Plumlee: BPM -0.8, VORP 0.2, WS/48 .146, NRtg: +12
Bol: BPM 2.1, VORP 0.5, WS/38 .168, NRtg: +18
*If you look only at his time on the Suns, O'Neale squeaks ahead of Okogie in WS/48 and Net Rating.

I must qualify by admitting that I don't understand any of this. Regardless, I just don't see how you exclude Bol Bol from the rotation unless his body can't handle it or he cracks under the pressure. Besides, Okogie's just holding a roster spot pending a midseason trade, right?

IDK if Budenholzer will want to play a complete second unit together but that way we will have a 10 man rotation on every single game.

If that's the case PROBABLY Okogie fits better than Bol next to the other four bench guys because of his agility and overall defense.

All in all I think both can be nice playing around 15 mpg so it's not a big deal.

Regarding Okogie's contract, it's a real possibility that we will attempt to trade him but it's not a sure thing at all. With injuries and other stuff he is gonna play minutes for us.

[Puff]

What do you guys prefer as our second unit to start the season?

Monte, Grayson, Okogie, O'Neale and Plumlee.

OR

Monte, Grayson, O'Neale, Bol and Plumlee.

I was sold on Bol but I think we are gonna need Okogie's aggressive defense...so I have my doubts about it.

Here's their advanced stats from last year:

Morris: BPM 0.7, VORP 0.3, WS/48 .123, Net rating per 100 possessions (NRtg): +7
Allen: BPM 1.3, VORP 2.0, WS/48 .132, NRtg: +13
O'Neale: BPM 0.0, VORP 1.0, WS/48 .085*, NRtg: 0*
Okogie: BPM -0.5, VORP 0.4, WS/48 .104, NRtg: +5
Plumlee: BPM -0.8, VORP 0.2, WS/48 .146, NRtg: +12
Bol: BPM 2.1, VORP 0.5, WS/38 .168, NRtg: +18
*If you look only at his time on the Suns, O'Neale squeaks ahead of Okogie in WS/48 and Net Rating.

I must qualify by admitting that I don't understand any of this. Regardless, I just don't see how you exclude Bol Bol from the rotation unless his body can't handle it or he cracks under the pressure. Besides, Okogie's just holding a roster spot pending a midseason trade, right?

IDK if Budenholzer will want to play a complete second unit together but that way we will have a 10 man rotation on every single game.

If that's the case PROBABLY Okogie fits better than Bol next to the other four bench guys because of his agility and overall defense.

All in all I think both can be nice playing around 15 mpg so it's not a big deal.

Regarding Okogie's contract, it's a real possibility that we will attempt to trade him but it's not a sure thing at all. With injuries and other stuff he is gonna play minutes for us.

Monte, Grayson, Okogie, O'Neale and Plumlee.

Of these five only two of them are guaranteed playing time, Plumlee and Grayson. Yeah, even Monte will need to earn minutes. IMO.

I will count Monte a spot in the 2nd unit for now but we need size so Bol will be part of that unit along with at least one of the big three.

Thus my 2nd unit is:

Plumlee,
Grayson,
Bol Bol or Ryan Dunn
one of the big three
Monte Morris

We are not playing in a 6'5" and under league. Unfortunately, that appears to be a weakness with the current roster. It will be fun to see how Bud creates his rotations. A lot of choices but we are pretty damn small.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Morris, Beal, Allen, Bol, Plumlee

[sunsbg]

Morris, Beal, Allen, Bol, Plumlee

Yeah this 2nd unit with Beal looks pretty good. Around 30 days until training camp. Hope we get to see Bud experiment with the lineups early.

[Saberestar]

Here's their advanced stats from last year:

Morris: BPM 0.7, VORP 0.3, WS/48 .123, Net rating per 100 possessions (NRtg): +7
Allen: BPM 1.3, VORP 2.0, WS/48 .132, NRtg: +13
O'Neale: BPM 0.0, VORP 1.0, WS/48 .085*, NRtg: 0*
Okogie: BPM -0.5, VORP 0.4, WS/48 .104, NRtg: +5
Plumlee: BPM -0.8, VORP 0.2, WS/48 .146, NRtg: +12
Bol: BPM 2.1, VORP 0.5, WS/38 .168, NRtg: +18
*If you look only at his time on the Suns, O'Neale squeaks ahead of Okogie in WS/48 and Net Rating.

I must qualify by admitting that I don't understand any of this. Regardless, I just don't see how you exclude Bol Bol from the rotation unless his body can't handle it or he cracks under the pressure. Besides, Okogie's just holding a roster spot pending a midseason trade, right?

IDK if Budenholzer will want to play a complete second unit together but that way we will have a 10 man rotation on every single game.

If that's the case PROBABLY Okogie fits better than Bol next to the other four bench guys because of his agility and overall defense.

All in all I think both can be nice playing around 15 mpg so it's not a big deal.

Regarding Okogie's contract, it's a real possibility that we will attempt to trade him but it's not a sure thing at all. With injuries and other stuff he is gonna play minutes for us.

Monte, Grayson, Okogie, O'Neale and Plumlee.

Of these five only two of them are guaranteed playing time, Plumlee and Grayson. Yeah, even Monte will need to earn minutes. IMO.

I will count Monte a spot in the 2nd unit for now but we need size so Bol will be part of that unit along with at least one of the big three.

Thus my 2nd unit is:

Plumlee,
Grayson,
Bol Bol or Ryan Dunn
one of the big three
Monte Morris

We are not playing in a 6'5" and under league. Unfortunately, that appears to be a weakness with the current roster. It will be fun to see how Bud creates his rotations. A lot of choices but we are pretty damn small.

Royce O'Neale definitely will be in the rotation.